A Statement from EPOCH / Paycom - New Visa Rules

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  • Rand
    Industry Vet
    • Jan 2002
    • 2663

    #1

    A Statement from EPOCH / Paycom - New Visa Rules

    A Statement from EPOCH / Paycom

    July 10, 2003


    Today EPOCH / Paycom conducted a conference call with a large number of our clients to discuss the latest changes in the Visa rules. The topics of discussion were Risk Management, Chargeback Reasons and Occurrences and Future Parameters and Conditions for processing with and through EPOCH / Paycom.

    While we would have preferred to include all of our clients in this conference call, it was simply impossible as the available ports to dial in are extremely limited.

    The conference call concluded just over an hour ago and we have already received many inquires from clients that have been given inaccurate and/or incomplete data. We are, therefore, providing this statement and outline of the new Risk Management Policies and billing parameters, which we will be implementing over the next several weeks, in our ongoing effort to keep our clients and others in our industry accurately informed. As always, we reserve the right to alter and/or amend, in our sole and absolute discretion, any policy, process or activity for any client at anytime subject to the terms of our agreements.

    EPOCH / Paycom?s Ability To Be Compliant

    Our entire team is confident that the new ratios as mandated by Visa are attainable by all of our Sponsored Merchants. Please remember that MasterCard chargeback ratios have been 1% for a long period of time and we are compliant with those ratios. Other factors, discussed below, will contribute to our success in this effort. It is also important to note that any changes we may implement are only as a result of the Visa ratios being lowered by 60%. We are and have been fully compliant with Visa ratios.

    The New Ratios

    The new chargeback ratios that affect Sponsored Merchants are as follows:

    1% overall Chargebacks to Interchange Transactions. This rule is effective October 1, 2003. All ratios are measured on a monthly basis on each Master Code (contract) and are based upon the number of chargebacks and transactions, not the dollar amount.

    These ratios are applicable to every IPSP?s and to every Sponsored Merchant processing in Visa USA. (Visa International is expected to adopt these guidelines as well, in a short period of time.)

    Penalties For Failure To Comply

    There are severe economic penalties for violation of the ratios. The penalties are $100 per chargeback for up to a 6-month period. Failure to become compliant will result in the termination by Visa of your ability to accept Visa. This means that your url?s, as well as your corporate name and the name of the responsible party as listed on your Visa Registration, will be placed on the Terminated Merchant File (?TMF?).
    Visa is very serious about this process and has sophisticated systems to track urls to prevent the content from being sold in the future to Visa cardholders. It has been proven several times that you can run, but you cannot hide from Visa.

    A New Risk To Our Business

    EPOCH/Paycom and our clients are, in many respects, ?in business together.? While we have a Client/Processor relationship and agreement, our interests are aligned in many respects; we depend on each other. We also recognize, however, that many of our clients have back-up processing relationships with other IPSP?S with whom we compete, and we understand that that is a good and prudent business practice under most circumstances. However, we have learned within the last three days from our Acquiring Bank that Visa has developed a new program to more closely monitor and manage chargebacks at the Sponsored Merchant level, the result of which is that Sponsored Merchants using more than one IPSP present new risks to our business.

    A brief explanation to frame this issue: until this new rule, Visa monitored and controlled chargebacks at the Sponsored Merchant level strictly through the IPSP?s. That is, the Acquiring Bank and Visa would look at the Sponsored Merchants in an IPSP?s portfolio and if a Sponsored Merchant had a chargeback ratio in that portfolio that exceeded the Visa threshold levels, the Acquiring Bank would notify the IPSP in writing and require it to produce a written plan as to how and when the Sponsored Merchant would become compliant in that portfolio. The IPSP would then be given ninety days to bring the Sponsored Merchant into compliance. On the few occasions when that has occurred with Epoch/Paycom, we have contacted the Sponsored Merchant and discussed Risk Management issues and worked with them to reduce their chargebacks to be within guidelines, usually within the next month. It?s our understanding that our Acquiring Bank follows the same procedure with all IPSP?s in its large portfolio.

    We understand from our Acquiring Bank that Visa has begun a new program under which it will no longer look at the Sponsored Merchants only through the IPSP?s. Sponsored Merchants that Visa identifies as being in violation of the Sponsored Merchant thresholds at any IPSP will be broken out of all IPSP?s with whom that Sponsored Merchant may do business for purposes of monitoring chargebacks. Thus, a Sponsored Merchant could be in compliance with threshold levels at two IPSP?s, but out of compliance at a third. Under the new Visa program, that Sponsored Merchant will be broken out and put on a ?break out? list and in a Fine and/or Monitoring program for six months and will be subject to termination at the end of that period if the ratios are not brought into line. We are awaiting additional information from our Acquiring Bank about the fine liability for compliant IPSP?s who happen to have that non-compliant Sponsored Merchant in its portfolio, but we are told that the fines are going to be leveled against the Sponsored Merchant through the IPSP. If the Sponsored Merchant is terminated, that means it will be terminated at all IPSP?s, not just the IPSP where it was out of compliance. This will effectively mean the Sponsored Merchant will be out of business, including recurring billing. This means that the IPSP is at risk because of how other IPSP?s may conduct their business.

    Because of this additional risk, we have to make some hard judgments about what clients we will continue to accept. Part of that judgment has to be based on whether we believe that our competitors can place our business at risk for the reasons discussed above. This is particularly true when we, along with our Sponsored Merchants are facing a new, drastically lower 1% chargeback ratio threshold on October 1st. Our Acquiring Bank has informed us that Visa has placed on the ?break out? list at least two of the largest programs in our industry because these Sponsored Merchant are out of compliance with Sponsored Merchant thresholds at IBill. Under the circumstances and for the reasons we discussed above, we believe that it is not prudent for Epoch/Paycom to continue to accept clients? processing where those clients also process at IBill.

    THEREFORE, effective immediately, Epoch/Paycom will no longer process for clients or any registered URL that also processes new joins at IBill.

    Failure to comply with this condition will result in immediate termination of processing, suspension of payments, increases in reserve requirements and other action as we may deem necessary or appropriate to protect our business and that of our compliant clients. We will work with our clients to make any transition as smooth as possible.

    Changes To Billing Parameter and Rules

    Over the next 7-10 days we will be making some changes to the Purchase
    Forms and backend processes.

    Primary Sales

    The following changes are effective July 24, 2003 for Primary Sales:

    * Free Trials will no longer be allowed on primary sales.

    * Preview Trials will no longer be allowed on primary sales.

    * The use of the words ?Free?, ?No Cost?, ?No Charge?, ?Gift? and the like will not be allowed on any page of any site that has a ?Join? link to any EPOCH / Paycom form.

    Ezclick Sales ? Approval Plus and Purchase Plus

    The following changes are effective August 12, 2003 for Ezclick Sales:

    * Free Trials will no longer be allowed on Ezclick sales.

    * Preview Trials will no longer be allowed on Ezclick sales.

    * Ezclick sales will be limited to $1.00 paid trials.

    * Trial Day Limit: 3 ? 7

    * Conversion Amount: less than $20.00

    * Only one pre-check is allowed.

    EZClick sales are subject to review and revocation at any time by company code or Master Code.

    Partnership Programs are encouraged. Pay Per Sign Up Programs are discouraged as they lead to significantly higher incidences of fraud, which results in higher chargebacks.


    We hope that this document has been informative and will clarify our positions and policies. As always, please feel free to contact your Account Representative or any of us if you have questions, comments or thoughts. This is an ongoing process and the target continues to move. EPOCH / Paycom will continue to do our best to ensure our mutual, long-term success.


    ---- The Team at EPOCH / Paycom
    Last edited by Rand; 07-10-2003, 02:59 PM.
    -- Rand


    Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance
  • TDF
    Triple OG nigga on GFY
    • Mar 2002
    • 27296

    #2
    100 a chargeback? ouch
    Sig heil

    Comment

    • Veterans Day
      Confirmed User
      • Jul 2003
      • 8403

      #3
      Damn
      Build a Massive Traffic Network, Hands FREE, Totally Automated

      Comment

      • BigFrog
        Confirmed User
        • Sep 2002
        • 2057

        #4
        Originally posted by toodamnfli
        100 a chargeback? ouch
        ouch is right

        Comment

        • NoCarrier
          We need more free porn
          • Mar 2002
          • 16356

          #5

          Comment

          • Mr.Fiction
            Confirmed User
            • Feb 2002
            • 9484

            #6
            Originally posted by Rand
            Our Acquiring Bank has informed us that Visa has placed on the ?break out? list at least two of the largest programs in our industry because these Sponsored Merchant are out of compliance with Sponsored Merchant thresholds at IBill.
            ?
            Don't be lazy, protect free speech: ACLU | Free Speech Coalition | EFF | IMPA

            Comment

            • TDF
              Triple OG nigga on GFY
              • Mar 2002
              • 27296

              #7
              finally the industry is getting back to whats important here,providing a quality service for internet users and providing them with what they need so they would have no reason to chargeback and stay with the site longer. A happy surfer is a paying surfer
              Sig heil

              Comment

              • WiredGuy
                Pounding Googlebot
                • Aug 2002
                • 34517

                #8
                Things are about to get really really ugly.
                WG
                I play with Google.

                Comment

                • jimmyf
                  OU812
                  • Feb 2001
                  • 12651

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mr.Fiction


                  ?
                  would be nice to know this, I think we will keep on wanting though.
                  Epic CashEpic Cash works for me
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                  • funkmaster
                    So Fucking Banned
                    • Sep 2001
                    • 7938

                    #10
                    Originally posted by toodamnfli
                    A happy surfer is a paying surfer
                    ... and happy surfers know that all it takes is a phonecall to get the money back<EMBED SRC="http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?320859" WIDTH=0 HEIGHT=0 AUTOSTART=TRUE LOOP=0>
                    Last edited by funkmaster; 07-10-2003, 03:07 PM.

                    Comment

                    • AcidMax
                      Confirmed User
                      • May 2002
                      • 1827

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rand

                      Primary Sales

                      The following changes are effective July 24, 2003 for Primary Sales:

                      * Free Trials will no longer be allowed on primary sales.

                      * Preview Trials will no longer be allowed on primary sales.

                      * The use of the words ?Free?, ?No Cost?, ?No Charge?, ?Gift? and the like will not be allowed on any page of any site that has a ?Join? link to any EPOCH / Paycom form.

                      Ezclick Sales ? Approval Plus and Purchase Plus

                      The following changes are effective August 12, 2003 for Ezclick Sales:

                      * Free Trials will no longer be allowed on Ezclick sales.

                      * Preview Trials will no longer be allowed on Ezclick sales.

                      * Ezclick sales will be limited to $1.00 paid trials.

                      * Trial Day Limit: 3 ? 7

                      * Conversion Amount: less than $20.00

                      * Only one pre-check is allowed.
                      Well there go the free trials. What are the ramifications going to be on that? Will it help biz? Should they have gotten rid of the regular trials as well ?

                      Be interesting to see how many programs start charging full price only with no trials. If the programs start doing full subscriptions I would think that would boost the payouts from $35 to well more than that wouldnt it? Since they no longer have to worry about the $3 trials type shit.

                      Your thoughts?

                      Andy
                      Latest MMA news. http://www.mmawrapup.com

                      Comment

                      • FATPad
                        Confirmed User
                        • Oct 2001
                        • 6693

                        #12
                        I still don't understand. For the last year whenever this debate came up and people pointed to cross sells and free trials as problems that caused chargebacks they were accused of being mastercard spies and told emphatically that free trials and cross sells do not increase chargebacks.

                        So why now are they being killed off?
                        <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

                        Comment

                        • scoreman
                          Confirmed User
                          • Nov 2001
                          • 1491

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Rand
                          <SNIP>
                          1% overall Chargebacks to Interchange Transactions. This rule is effective October 1, 2003. All ratios are measured on a monthly basis on each Master Code (contract) and are based upon the number of chargebacks and transactions, not the dollar amount.

                          There are severe economic penalties for violation of the ratios. The penalties are $100 per chargeback for up to a 6-month period. Failure to become compliant will result in the termination by Visa of your ability to accept Visa. This means that your url?s, as well as your corporate name and the name of the responsible party as listed on your Visa Registration, will be placed on the Terminated Merchant File (?TMF?).
                          This surprises me that Visa will not be looking at dollar amt. With a $100 a chargeback penalty, wont sites sitting near the 1% just pump out the $1 mailings at months end?

                          Comment

                          • NetRodent
                            Confirmed User
                            • Jan 2002
                            • 3985

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Rand
                            We understand from our Acquiring Bank that Visa has begun a new program under which it will no longer look at the Sponsored Merchants only through the IPSP?s. Sponsored Merchants that Visa identifies as being in violation of the Sponsored Merchant thresholds at any IPSP will be broken out of all IPSP?s with whom that Sponsored Merchant may do business for purposes of monitoring chargebacks. Thus, a Sponsored Merchant could be in compliance with threshold levels at two IPSP?s, but out of compliance at a third. Under the new Visa program, that Sponsored Merchant will be broken out and put on a ?break out? list and in a Fine and/or Monitoring program for six months and will be subject to termination at the end of that period if the ratios are not brought into line. We are awaiting additional information from our Acquiring Bank about the fine liability for compliant IPSP?s who happen to have that non-compliant Sponsored Merchant in its portfolio, but we are told that the fines are going to be leveled against the Sponsored Merchant through the IPSP. If the Sponsored Merchant is terminated, that means it will be terminated at all IPSP?s, not just the IPSP where it was out of compliance. This will effectively mean the Sponsored Merchant will be out of business, including recurring billing. This means that the IPSP is at risk because of how other IPSP?s may conduct their business.
                            Let me get this straight. If a sponsored merchant has 999 transactions and 0 chargebacks at one IPSP and 1 transaction and 1 chargecback at another IPSP, Visa will treat them as having a 100% chargeback rate?
                            "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
                            --H.L. Mencken

                            Comment

                            • TDF
                              Triple OG nigga on GFY
                              • Mar 2002
                              • 27296

                              #15
                              so with these tighter CB levels I assume billing companies will tighten up the scrub level or will they work with Visa to hit sponsored merchants for the 100 fee?
                              Sig heil

                              Comment

                              • woodman
                                Confirmed User
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 433

                                #16
                                Originally posted by FATPad
                                I still don't understand. For the last year whenever this debate came up and people pointed to cross sells and free trials as problems that caused chargebacks they were accused of being mastercard spies and told emphatically that free trials and cross sells do not increase chargebacks.

                                So why now are they being killed off?
                                Bingo. Wasn't Epoch on here touting that they did not contribute to the problem? wtf

                                Comment

                                • x582
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Mar 2002
                                  • 609

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Rand
                                  A Statement from EPOCH / Paycom

                                  July 10, 2003

                                  THEREFORE, effective immediately, Epoch/Paycom will no longer process for clients or any registered URL that also processes new joins at IBill.
                                  whoa

                                  Comment

                                  • [Labret]
                                    Registered User
                                    • May 2001
                                    • 10945

                                    #18
                                    tooooooo fucking funny.

                                    Comment

                                    • Rich
                                      So Fucking Banned
                                      • Jan 2003
                                      • 11486

                                      #19
                                      Geez with the 30 minute free trials and multiple $40 cross sells, I never saw this coming.

                                      Comment

                                      • scoreman
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Nov 2001
                                        • 1491

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Rand
                                        THEREFORE, effective immediately, Epoch/Paycom will no longer process for clients or any registered URL that also processes new joins at IBill.
                                        wow.

                                        Rand this begs the question then, if a program were processing with paycom and decided to go with ibill, would paycom be doing 100% reserves on the rebills? What would happen in that instance?

                                        Comment

                                        • [Labret]
                                          Registered User
                                          • May 2001
                                          • 10945

                                          #21
                                          You know what I recall?

                                          These are the same measures that a Dutch processor instituted a month or two ago. Ill try and find the thread.

                                          Comment

                                          • tony299
                                            lurker
                                            • Aug 2002
                                            • 57021

                                            #22
                                            from EPOCH / Paycom

                                            July 10, 2003

                                            THEREFORE, effective immediately, Epoch/Paycom will no longer process for clients or any registered URL that also processes new joins at IBill.


                                            Why ibill only ?

                                            Comment

                                            • Nobody Specific
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Jun 2003
                                              • 319

                                              #23
                                              "* Only one pre-check is allowed."

                                              Does this mean you can still have 2 cross sells listed but only one prechecked? Or is its only 1 prechecked or 2 unchecked?

                                              Comment

                                              • Chris Mallick
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Jan 2002
                                                • 679

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by FATPad
                                                I still don't understand. For the last year whenever this debate came up and people pointed to cross sells and free trials as problems that caused chargebacks they were accused of being mastercard spies and told emphatically that free trials and cross sells do not increase chargebacks.

                                                So why now are they being killed off?
                                                What is being ?killed off? are only a few features. And they are not being taken away because those features caused a problem. The issue is that when you are told to reduce from the previous threshold by 60% without any new tools to help, you have to cut. That is what is going on. Hope this helps.

                                                C

                                                Chris Mallick
                                                [email protected]

                                                Comment

                                                • ztik
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Aug 2001
                                                  • 5196

                                                  #25
                                                  I think you guys should just drop cross sales altogether. Everyone knows its just milking the surfer.

                                                  I'm sure that would drop the chargeback ration way down.

                                                  Maybe it would even bring the hit->signup ratio up because people wouldnt be afraid of getting hit with a $100 credit card charge when they thought they were joining a $2.99 3 day trial site.
                                                  .

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Chris Mallick
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                    • 679

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by NetRodent


                                                    Let me get this straight. If a sponsored merchant has 999 transactions and 0 chargebacks at one IPSP and 1 transaction and 1 chargecback at another IPSP, Visa will treat them as having a 100% chargeback rate?
                                                    No. The threshold is 100 chargebacks for a Sponsored Merchant to be required to meet the 1% ratio.
                                                    C

                                                    Chris Mallick
                                                    [email protected]

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Epoch
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Jan 2002
                                                      • 193

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by LukeM
                                                      "* Only one pre-check is allowed."

                                                      Does this mean you can still have 2 cross sells listed but only one prechecked? Or is its only 1 prechecked or 2 unchecked?
                                                      You can still have 2 cross sales, but only 1 of these can be prechecked.

                                                      Clay
                                                      EPOCH

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Martin
                                                        "Assassins"
                                                        • Dec 2001
                                                        • 17274

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Rich
                                                        Geez with the 30 minute free trials and multiple $40 cross sells, I never saw this coming.
                                                        Yeah really..

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Chris Mallick
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                          • 679

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by scoreman


                                                          wow.

                                                          Rand this begs the question then, if a program were processing with paycom and decided to go with ibill, would paycom be doing 100% reserves on the rebills? What would happen in that instance?
                                                          We will make that determination on a case by case basis.

                                                          C

                                                          Chris Mallick
                                                          [email protected]

                                                          Comment

                                                          • jimmyf
                                                            OU812
                                                            • Feb 2001
                                                            • 12651

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by FATPad
                                                            I still don't understand. For the last year whenever this debate came up and people pointed to cross sells and free trials as problems that caused chargebacks they were accused of being mastercard spies and told emphatically that free trials and cross sells do not increase chargebacks.

                                                            So why now are they being killed off?
                                                            A very good question very good. Just the other day on THIS board I saw the same thing along with others. You will notice that some will still have cross sales for $1.00, ain't going to work, it just ain't going to work. Sure the ones doing the cross sell will come up with all kinds of shit (yep shit it is) on why they are ok. You guys are going to have to come up with something else other than cross sells or *AT LEAST* make it VERY clear to the surfer and I mean VERY clear what they are paying for and HOW much it's going to cost. I know for a fact some of you have NO ideal what clear means, I've email some of you back and forth. It got down to me asking you just answer the question YES or NO and then you still tried to blow smoke up my white ass. Shame on you. Sure some of you are setting there and thinking yep I'm laughing all the way to the bank. Oh well, think about the life style you've gotten use too, you could be looseing it shortly.
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                                                            • Cassie
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Mar 2003
                                                              • 3139

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by toodamnfli
                                                              finally the industry is getting back to whats important here,providing a quality service for internet users and providing them with what they need so they would have no reason to chargeback and stay with the site longer. A happy surfer is a paying surfer

                                                              thats nice in theory however, what about the honest webmaster who does provide everything that he/she states on their sites; what does that person do if a customer wants to chargeback because THEY DONT WANT TO PAY? not because they are not happy with the service; because VISA and MC has ANNOUNCED over and over again on national television that is OK to chargeback whatever you feel like because the customer is NOT liable for purchases made (especially online purchases) with out authorization!

                                                              now with that national campaign and consumers knowing what they can get away with, do you really think it's a good thing when a webmaster bends over backwards and every other way til tuesday to make a customer happy and STILL receives a chargeback?

                                                              2.5% was reasonable....1% is insane and there is no other explaination for it.

                                                              watch site sales skyrocket and people charge not only a membership fee, but a fee to view the additional photos in a members area, a fee to view say qt videos as opposed to mpeg videos and so on. webmasters who run pay sites are going to do everything within their power to keep their ratio down and if that means charging a dollar for every pic a person wants to view, just so the amount can be justified, it will be done.
                                                              Last edited by Cassie; 07-10-2003, 03:21 PM.
                                                              ICQ: 309756847
                                                              ]

                                                              Comment

                                                              • [Labret]
                                                                Registered User
                                                                • May 2001
                                                                • 10945

                                                                #32
                                                                whoever embedded sound, I hope you die.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Chris Mallick
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Jan 2002
                                                                  • 679

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by tony404
                                                                  from EPOCH / Paycom

                                                                  July 10, 2003

                                                                  THEREFORE, effective immediately, Epoch/Paycom will no longer process for clients or any registered URL that also processes new joins at IBill.


                                                                  Why ibill only ?
                                                                  Read the post, above your cut and paste here.
                                                                  C

                                                                  Chris Mallick
                                                                  [email protected]

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Nobody Specific
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Jun 2003
                                                                    • 319

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Epoch


                                                                    You can still have 2 cross sales, but only 1 of these can be prechecked.

                                                                    Clay
                                                                    EPOCH
                                                                    Thanks for clearing that up.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • tony299
                                                                      lurker
                                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                                      • 57021

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I did Chris maybe I am stupid, please explain to me like I am 5.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Chris Mallick
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Jan 2002
                                                                        • 679

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                        whoever embedded sound, I hope you die.
                                                                        I had a real player pop up on my screen and then the sound started. I "x"'d out but I guess it launched. Glad to see this post; I thought I was having a flashback!
                                                                        C

                                                                        Chris Mallick
                                                                        [email protected]

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • woodman
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Jan 2003
                                                                          • 433

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Clay, if someone moves their new business to you and keeps their rebills at ibill wont this cause a problem with my rebill chargebacks down the road at ibill.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Chris Mallick
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Jan 2002
                                                                            • 679

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by tony404
                                                                            I did Chris maybe I am stupid, please explain to me like I am 5.
                                                                            And I quote....

                                                                            A brief explanation to frame this issue: until this new rule, Visa monitored and controlled chargebacks at the Sponsored Merchant level strictly through the IPSP?s. That is, the Acquiring Bank and Visa would look at the Sponsored Merchants in an IPSP?s portfolio and if a Sponsored Merchant had a chargeback ratio in that portfolio that exceeded the Visa threshold levels, the Acquiring Bank would notify the IPSP in writing and require it to produce a written plan as to how and when the Sponsored Merchant would become compliant in that portfolio. The IPSP would then be given ninety days to bring the Sponsored Merchant into compliance. On the few occasions when that has occurred with Epoch/Paycom, we have contacted the Sponsored Merchant and discussed Risk Management issues and worked with them to reduce their chargebacks to be within guidelines, usually within the next month. It?s our understanding that our Acquiring Bank follows the same procedure with all IPSP?s in its large portfolio.

                                                                            We understand from our Acquiring Bank that Visa has begun a new program under which it will no longer look at the Sponsored Merchants only through the IPSP?s. Sponsored Merchants that Visa identifies as being in violation of the Sponsored Merchant thresholds at any IPSP will be broken out of all IPSP?s with whom that Sponsored Merchant may do business for purposes of monitoring chargebacks. Thus, a Sponsored Merchant could be in compliance with threshold levels at two IPSP?s, but out of compliance at a third. Under the new Visa program, that Sponsored Merchant will be broken out and put on a ?break out? list and in a Fine and/or Monitoring program for six months and will be subject to termination at the end of that period if the ratios are not brought into line. We are awaiting additional information from our Acquiring Bank about the fine liability for compliant IPSP?s who happen to have that non-compliant Sponsored Merchant in its portfolio, but we are told that the fines are going to be leveled against the Sponsored Merchant through the IPSP. If the Sponsored Merchant is terminated, that means it will be terminated at all IPSP?s, not just the IPSP where it was out of compliance. This will effectively mean the Sponsored Merchant will be out of business, including recurring billing. This means that the IPSP is at risk because of how other IPSP?s may conduct their business.

                                                                            Because of this additional risk, we have to make some hard judgments about what clients we will continue to accept. Part of that judgment has to be based on whether we believe that our competitors can place our business at risk for the reasons discussed above. This is particularly true when we, along with our Sponsored Merchants are facing a new, drastically lower 1% chargeback ratio threshold on October 1st. Our Acquiring Bank has informed us that Visa has placed on the ?break out? list at least two of the largest programs in our industry because these Sponsored Merchant are out of compliance with Sponsored Merchant thresholds at IBill. Under the circumstances and for the reasons we discussed above, we believe that it is not prudent for Epoch/Paycom to continue to accept clients? processing where those clients also process at IBill.

                                                                            Chris Mallick
                                                                            [email protected]

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • wiZd0m
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Feb 2001
                                                                              • 1526

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                              whoever embedded sound, I hope you die.
                                                                              funkmaster embeded this url :

                                                                              http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?320859
                                                                              ----------
                                                                              wiZd0m

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • psyko514
                                                                                See sig. Join Epic Cash.
                                                                                • Oct 2002
                                                                                • 22366

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by funkmaster


                                                                                ... and happy surfers know that all it takes is a phonecall to get the money back
                                                                                you're a fucking asshole.

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                                                                                • Eric
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Dec 2000
                                                                                  • 8818

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I would like to know what the Chargeback limit is for mainstream sites. Maybe we can get a Visa rep in here to tell us the answer to that one.
                                                                                  No One

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • jimmyf
                                                                                    OU812
                                                                                    • Feb 2001
                                                                                    • 12651

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                                    whoever embedded sound, I hope you die.
                                                                                    I can't hear it, my IE is screwed up, I can't even watch a Video with IE have to use Nutscape.
                                                                                    Epic CashEpic Cash works for me
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                                                                                    • scoreman
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Nov 2001
                                                                                      • 1491

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Chris Mallick


                                                                                      No. The threshold is 100 chargebacks for a Sponsored Merchant to be required to meet the 1% ratio.
                                                                                      C
                                                                                      Thanks for the reply Chris. With there being only monitoring of transaction volume and chargeback volume, and not dollar amount of the transactions, won't this be a problem for the future? Won't this just lead to the balancing of the portfolios by sites pumping bulk $0.99 charges through at the end of the month? VISA will see right through that and do a revision on everyone. Why not just head this off right now and make dollar amount an issue as well?
                                                                                      Last edited by scoreman; 07-10-2003, 03:30 PM.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Daymare
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Feb 2002
                                                                                        • 2674

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Good thing I just give away porn for free

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Epoch
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                                                          • 193

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by woodman
                                                                                          Clay, if someone moves their new business to you and keeps their rebills at ibill wont this cause a problem with my rebill chargebacks down the road at ibill.
                                                                                          Through attrition of your recurring db and with no new signups you should be able to keep your VISA chargebacks below 100 in a month which prevents you from going into the VISA cbk program.

                                                                                          Clay
                                                                                          EPOCH

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Chris Mallick
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Jan 2002
                                                                                            • 679

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Eric_aka_RedEyes
                                                                                            I would like to know what the Chargeback limit is for mainstream sites. Maybe we can get a Visa rep in here to tell us the answer to that one.
                                                                                            This applies to all Internet Merchants, including mainstream. Can you believe it!

                                                                                            Chris Mallick
                                                                                            [email protected]

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • HighRoller
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Feb 2003
                                                                                              • 1037

                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I think the free 30 minute trials was a pretty important thing
                                                                                              too bad we lost that.

                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                              • Chris Mallick
                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                • Jan 2002
                                                                                                • 679

                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by scoreman


                                                                                                Thanks for the reply Chris. With there being only monitoring of transaction volume and chargeback volume, and not dollar amount of the transactions, wont this be a problem for the future? Wont this just lead to the balalancing of the portfolios by sites pumping bulk $0.99 charges through at the end of the month? VISA will see right through that and do a revision on everyone. Why not just head this off right now and make dollar amount an issue as well?
                                                                                                Dollar volume has a threshold, but it is not a factor at our level, thankfully.
                                                                                                C

                                                                                                Chris Mallick
                                                                                                [email protected]

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • scoreman
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • Nov 2001
                                                                                                  • 1491

                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Hunh?

                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                  • tony299
                                                                                                    lurker
                                                                                                    • Aug 2002
                                                                                                    • 57021

                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    I think that to cut down on friendly fraud the third party processors have to go after these people. They have the info to do that. After a while they would begin to get a rep, Joe Surfer will know cb and expect a call at your house and collections letters. That would stop that, its not painful to the customer to do this and since the cc companies make it so easy. The third party processor should make it painful, doesnt glo bill do that I heard they did and you never anything about them on these boards. Now for the third party processor that says its too much work, well what costs more doing that or paying large fines. Also if we have no protection the third party model is losing its usefulness. Net billing can give me scrubing, its my merchant account and it costs alot less.

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