adding a european secondary processor

[tony286]

I hope someone can give me a straight answer on this. When the Visa $750 thing happened, we were told if you have a european third party processor and you are in the USA. You could lose your Visa priviledges. I know tons of sites that have them and no one has gone anywhere. Can I have a non Usa third party processor on my site?

[tony286]

bump

[directfiesta]

bump also.

[BigBucks]

Hi,

Global Charge, UK based, e-mail me at [email protected] and we can set you up with both credit and debit card processing at NO SET UP COST.

Cheers

[Elephant_Gut]

I talked on the phone with Glo-Bill's CFO, after much effort to speak to an exec at that company. My concern was all the conflicting info I was reading on this board and other sources with respect to the whole $750 thing, Visa rules, etc. etc. I use Glo-Bill and Verotel as my main processors. He's a straight up guy and it was an enlightening conversation. Anyway, he confirmed what my initial research told me - despite what all the vested interests on this board say, you are perfectly fine processing with a European or offshore processor.

Visa is split up into different regions of the world. Each region has different rules and regs. Visa knows who ALL the processors are, who they bank with and exactly what they are doing. All processors, whether in USA or some other country MUST follow the visa regs for their particular region. If they don't they are terminated in the blink of an eye. The fact is, all the major processors are currently compliant with Visa in their region (if they weren't, they would already be history). If you go with a US processor, you must register and pay $750. If you go with an offshore processor, you don't have to do that.

All that being said, maybe YOUR US-based processor (not Visa) could cancel you if you used both them and a Euro or offshore processor. They certainly have that discretion. I use both an offshore and euro processor and don't worry about the crazy rules in the good old US of A.

[woodman]

Registering both in the US and EU is asking for trouble. If you need a secondary processor, why not get a secondary US-based processor?

It's not worth losing your business over because other companies have yet to be caught.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by woodman
Registering both in the US and EU is asking for trouble. If you need a secondary processor, why not get a secondary US-based processor?

It's not worth losing your business over because other companies have yet to be caught.

I think the situation is reveresed; that you are more exposed with a US processor but that's just my humble opinion. There was no way I was ever going to give Visa all my personal data, social security number, yada, yada, yada and $750 on top of that. I have no desire for the evil empire to be able to track my every internet move.

The US seems to be "fine crazy". Both Mastercard and Visa in the US are outta control, fining the largest processors with mongo fines. It's just a matter of time before IPSPs in the US either implode or drastically change their business model. And if you get your own merchant account in the US then you are on the hook for those fines directly and the last I inquired the Mastercard fine starts at $25k per month then quickly jumps to $100k.

Man, whatever happend to America - Land of the Free?!?

[tony286]

THe reason I am asking this because I think there a possiblity that the US third party processor model is not long for this earth. I hope I am wrong.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by tony404
THe reason I am asking this because I think there a possiblity that the US third party processor model is not long for this earth. I hope I am wrong.

You are not wrong. I think you are right. For whatever reason (I think it was a back-room deal between Republicans and Visa/MC) the US card association have been on all-out assault on third-party for the better part of a year now. Every move they have made seems designed to make third-party either redundant (it costs less than $750 to apply for your own merchant account) or difficult to continue to run.; soon maybe impossible.

Other countries do not seem to be anywhere near as hostile to the business model (except Canada).

[ozzymandius]

Originally posted by woodman
Registering both in the US and EU is asking for trouble. If you need a secondary processor, why not get a secondary US-based processor?

It's not worth losing your business over because other companies have yet to be caught.

I've seen dozens of sites using both Epoch/iBill/CCBill with Verotel and many dozens more using Epoch/iBill/CCBill with Globill.

The US processor has to make sure that YOU are located in the US. If you then add another processor on your site, that other processor has to make sure that YOU follow whatever rules are there for their region.

But neither processor is supposed to investigate who else you are doing business with. That would be crazier than crazy! That would be way beyond the scope of any Visa regs and could even be illegal. And none of them would be crazy enough to terminate you for using multiple processors, whether onshore or offshore. These guys want to make money like the rest of us. They would have to dump a significant portion of their portfolio if they did, losing yet more sales and placing their chargeback ratios at even greater risk. Not gonna happen.

[tomax]

I've been running multiple processors for months. They all know that I do that as they have each fixed tech issues with my shared password files routinely. None of them have raised a peep about it.

It's true. They all want to make money. There's no color like green!

[Webby]

THe reason I am asking this because I think there a possiblity that the US third party processor model is not long for this earth. I hope I am wrong.

Inclined to agree you are not wrong.... It is not a secret it is a hard life as a US processor.

Despite VISA, their banking partners in all regions apart from North America have rejected VISA's "rules". These banking partners are "part" of VISA and there is no indication they are going to change their minds on this.

[Webby]

Sorry.. shit.. that was a "simplified" comment above... but basically the crux of the story!

[Kimmykim]

According to the rules you must settle in the region where your business is.

So if you are US both your primary and secondary will need to be US.

If you are EURO then both primary and secondary will need to be Euro.

I don't really think this is the time to go and flaunt a Visa rule, not with compliance coming down the pipe with all this new stuff.

[Webby]

I don't really think this is the time to go and flaunt a Visa rule, not with compliance coming down the pipe with all this new stuff.

Still more coming down the line K??

I would never have thought it!

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by Webby


Still more coming down the line K??

I would never have thought it!

Hey I dunno, I don't work there. Of course when is there NOT more coming down the pipe.

tony, sweetie -- One other comment on the Euro situation - that would put a definite liability on you to collect and remit the VAT on all your sales to the EU I think... not pretty to have to either raise prices by 25% to cover it or take a 25% lower margin...

[directfiesta]

Originally posted by Kimmykim
According to the rules you must settle in the region where your business is.

So if you are US both your primary and secondary will need to be US.

If you are EURO then both primary and secondary will need to be Euro.

I don't really think this is the time to go and flaunt a Visa rule, not with compliance coming down the pipe with all this new stuff.

Make a different entry: one for US ( if you are a US based corp) and another for Europe ( get a EU corp) . Different corp, different sites. You can also mirror your sites and use an IP detection and redirection...


As canadian, I bend over and get fucked by both ends...

Naturally, some on this board will not like this...

[Webby]

One other comment on the Euro situation - that would put a definite liability on you to collect and remit the VAT on all your sales to the EU I think... not pretty to have to either raise prices by 25% to cover it or take a 25% lower margin...

I left the tony sweetie out in the above quote! *g*

The VAT issue... Use a Euro offshore... eg Gibraltar.. there is no VAT applicable in this instance.

[Kimmykim]

The core issue is that you cannot settle for the same site in two regions without subjecting yourself to potential and immediate termination if Visa catches you.

The saddest thing I see coming out of all the new rules is that it will be a dog eat dog situation, where people rat out their competition to gain an edge.

Just something to think about.

[Shoplifter]

Originally posted by tony404
I hope someone can give me a straight answer on this. When the Visa $750 thing happened, we were told if you have a european third party processor and you are in the USA. You could lose your Visa priviledges. I know tons of sites that have them and no one has gone anywhere. Can I have a non Usa third party processor on my site?

Not if you have paid the $750 and are registered with Visa USA.

You can do it if you want, but you risk termination.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by Kimmykim
The core issue is that you cannot settle for the same site in two regions without subjecting yourself to potential and immediate termination if Visa catches you.

The saddest thing I see coming out of all the new rules is that it will be a dog eat dog situation, where people rat out their competition to gain an edge.

Just something to think about.

Nope. That's wrong. The webmaster has ZERO relationship with Visa. It is the IPSP, through its merchant bank who has the relationship with Visa. It is the IPSP who is responsible for accepting, rejecting or terminating a website, not Visa and not the merchant bank. The IPSP has to follow the rules of its Visa region. A US-based IPSP, under Visa USA, cannot aquire a website based out of the UK, for example. They can of course acquire a US-based website. If that US-based website then decides to add multiple processors, even from different regions, they can do that. Hundreds do. It is the US based IPSP that is "geographically restricted" not the individual websites.

[Webby]

A US-based IPSP, under Visa USA, cannot aquire a website based out of the UK, for example.

Interesting comment!!

Re the quote... US processors are accepting UK based websites - the difference seems to be they don't request the DNA test or charge $700....

[woodman]

Originally posted by Elephant_Gut


Nope. That's wrong. The webmaster has ZERO relationship with Visa. It is the IPSP, through its merchant bank who has the relationship with Visa. It is the IPSP who is responsible for accepting, rejecting or terminating a website, not Visa and not the merchant bank. The IPSP has to follow the rules of its Visa region. A US-based IPSP, under Visa USA, cannot aquire a website based out of the UK, for example. They can of course acquire a US-based website. If that US-based website then decides to add multiple processors, even from different regions, they can do that. Hundreds do. It is the US based IPSP that is "geographically restricted" not the individual websites.

You really should shut your pie-hole if you don't know what your are talking about. Every merchant using a US-based processor is registered WITH Visa.

[ozzymandius]

Originally posted by woodman



You really should shut your pie-hole if you don't know what your are talking about. Every merchant using a US-based processor is registered WITH Visa.

You didn't read what he wrote. The US-based IPSP is reponsible for registering the US-based website under this Visa reg. But the RELATIONSHIP is strictly through the IPSP and merchant bank to Visa, NOT between Visa and an individual website. Visa has no right to even communicate with you. Most webmasters don't even realize that. Visa can only communicate with its merchant bank who in turn is responsible for monitoring the compliance of the IPSP. And it is the IPSP who is ultmiately responsible for "policing" its portfolio.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by woodman



You really should shut your pie-hole if you don't know what your are talking about. Every merchant using a US-based processor is registered WITH Visa.

It is the IPSP that registers you under the Visa regulation. They have to keep this information on file. It is not Visa that registers you. Visa has NO relationship with you whatsoever.

My pie-hole remains open.

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by woodman



You really should shut your pie-hole if you don't know what your are talking about. Every merchant using a US-based processor is registered WITH Visa.

Hey now don't you talk to a processor like that! Especially not one that flaunts the Visa rules to the point that I'll be cackling like a hen laying eggs when they are terminated! ;)

Visa can and does instruct, either directly or thru the merchant banks, IPSPs to terminate accounts. To say that they don't is an elephant faced lie.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by Webby


Interesting comment!!

Re the quote... US processors are accepting UK based websites - the difference seems to be they don't request the DNA test or charge $700....

The US-based processors that are doing that, like CCBill and iBill, have opened up Euro subsiduraries, like IBill-EU. They can acquire UK websites using those european branches.

I guess a better example would have been "Canadian webmasters". At the current time, no US-based processor can acquire a Canadian website operation. European and offshore processors can and do.

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by Elephant_Gut


It is the IPSP that registers you under the Visa regulation. They have to keep this information on file. It is not Visa that registers you. Visa has NO relationship with you whatsoever.

My pie-hole remains open.

Um, dumbo, Visa gets a report every month on chargebacks and credits by URL. Or at least they do in a legitimate setup.

You, my friend, will get what you deserve.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by Kimmykim


Hey now don't you talk to a processor like that! Especially not one that flaunts the Visa rules to the point that I'll be cackling like a hen laying eggs when they are terminated! ;)

Visa can and does instruct, either directly or thru the merchant banks, IPSPs to terminate accounts. To say that they don't is an elephant faced lie.

Interesting comment from Kimmy "I am not an Paycom consultant" Kim.

Please enlighten us all. Which processor is currently "flaunting Visa rules?"

Please, do tell. I really want to know. I certainly would not want to place my business there.

[tomax]

Originally posted by Elephant_Gut


Interesting comment from Kimmy "I am not an Paycom consultant" Kim.

Please enlighten us all. Which processor is currently "flaunting Visa rules?"

Please, do tell. I really want to know. I certainly would not want to place my business there.

Are you saying Elephant gut's a processor? And they are violating Visa rules?

I think everyone would want to know. What's the inside scoop kimmy?

[chupacabra]

i've asked about this in another thread not too long ago, but please remind me... it is Ok to use any secondary processor, based *anywhere* in the world, as long as you are not processing VISA through said secondary processor, yes? i.e. my US-based primary processor declines (or scrubs) a signup, the failed surfer is shunted over to my secondary processor based in <wherever> and gives them the option to signup using MC, or other locale-based options (debit, etc.)... as long as VISA isn't being accepted/offered at the secondary processor, you are still compliant, yes..?

also, anyone want to recommend a few options for secondary processors based outside of the US, for the purpose detailed above (no VISA)..?

[ozzymandius]

Originally posted by Kimmykim


Hey now don't you talk to a processor like that! Especially not one that flaunts the Visa rules to the point that I'll be cackling like a hen laying eggs when they are terminated! ;)

Visa can and does instruct, either directly or thru the merchant banks, IPSPs to terminate accounts. To say that they don't is an elephant faced lie.

LOL! KK accusing webmasters of being processors. That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Oops. I forgot your relationship is with ePassporte not Paycom, two totally different things. My bad!

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by ozzymandius


LOL! KK accusing webmasters of being processors. That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Oops. I forgot your relationship is with ePassporte not Paycom, two totally different things. My bad!

Nope, it's not the same thing at all. Someone was good enough to point out to me a few things regarding this poster and the conclusion they had come to. I did a search and had a look at some things, and I've got to agree with them.

Everyone knows what I do, it's no secret, nor do I try to make it one. Of course I am going to stand up for ANY processor that's compliant with Visa's regulations and doing what *I* feel to be the best thing for the industry. That doesn't mean they are or are not, it's simply *MY* opinion.

If you look back, you will see me sticking up for CCBill, IBill, Jettis, Epoch consistently when they are attacked or slurred.

Coming in here pretending to be one thing but really being another is something I find tacky at best, and very shady at worst.

As for who it is, I have nothing to say, since its my opinion that they are who I think they are.

[ozzymandius]

Originally posted by chupacabra
i've asked about this in another thread not too long ago, but please remind me... it is Ok to use any secondary processor, based *anywhere* in the world, as long as you are not processing VISA through said secondary processor, yes? i.e. my US-based primary processor declines (or scrubs) a signup, the failed surfer is shunted over to my secondary processor based in <wherever> and gives them the option to signup using MC, or other locale-based options (debit, etc.)... as long as VISA isn't being accepted/offered at the secondary processor, you are still compliant, yes..?

also, anyone want to recommend a few options for secondary processors based outside of the US, for the purpose detailed above (no VISA)..?

Verotel, Globill, Globalcharge. I think 2000charge as well. ProBilling is based in Canada but apparently has a merchant account in the UK. Any of those should do. I have secondary and tertiary processors based outside the US and process Visa through them and have had no poroblems.

[Webby]

Best way forward now is set up a corp in Europe .. preferably offshore (and no, it is not illegal!! *g*) and forget all US processors.

There is still the opportunity to deal with CCBill and IBill (duh?) in Europe since they have a base there. There are a few Euro processors available and folks like Globill and proBilling.

This cuts all the crap about cross-border trading....

[tomax]

Originally posted by Kimmykim


Nope, it's not the same thing at all. Someone was good enough to point out to me a few things regarding this poster and the conclusion they had come to. I did a search and had a look at some things, and I've got to agree with them.

Everyone knows what I do, it's no secret, nor do I try to make it one. Of course I am going to stand up for ANY processor that's compliant with Visa's regulations and doing what *I* feel to be the best thing for the industry. That doesn't mean they are or are not, it's simply *MY* opinion.

If you look back, you will see me sticking up for CCBill, IBill, Jettis, Epoch consistently when they are attacked or slurred.

Coming in here pretending to be one thing but really being another is something I find tacky at best, and very shady at worst.

As for who it is, I have nothing to say, since its my opinion that they are who I think they are.

Only an a opinion? Shit! I thought we were gonna git some serious inside scoop dirt.

I think it's all too common though that people probably post here under multiple handles and plug their programs. Maybe Visa should start registering chat board users too.

I'm kidding. I don't want anymore Visa rules. So if you are reading visa, it's justa joke!

[Kimmykim]

Everything is only my opinion. If I happen to be right every now and then so be it