Affirmative action...

[katman]

There has been some discussion lately on several boards, in Texas and other states as well about this issue and I wonder what you think.

If you are 14or younger, you wouldn't even know what it even means, so don't bother to respond.

Part of it involves me having to pay repairations to minorities for the governments past sins, which I belive I had no part of, since I never owned a slave myself.

[GrimShawn]

[katman]

lol...so you're 12?

have a real opinion?

[GrimShawn]

Originally posted by katman
lol...so you're 12?

have a real opinion?

[Mr Pheer]

I seriously doubt that any of the minorities receiving the benefits were ever slaves either

Let see.... I never owned a slave, you were never a slave, so I owe you what?

Nothing.

Fuck affirmative action, fuck that shit "I'm opressed by the white man", fuck having kids and living on welfare while you drive a $30k car, and god dammit learn how to talk, cant understand a fuckin thing they say anymore.

[lil2rich4u2]

[katman]

Originally posted by MrPheer
I seriously doubt that any of the minorities receiving the benefits were ever slaves either

Let see.... I never owned a slave, you were never a slave, so I owe you what?

Nothing.

Fuck affirmative action, fuck that shit "I'm opressed by the white man", fuck having kids and living on welfare while you drive a $30k car, and god dammit learn how to talk, cant understand a fuckin thing they say anymore.

There are actually a lot of good arguments for Affirmative Action, but so far none I've seen that make a real difference except make it difficult for the average joe to get a job.

I applaude you for standing up for what you beleive. I avtually stand somewhere in the middle, but get very tired of listening to the friends of mine who get passed over for jobs for the reason that the company wanted a minority.

If you live in Louisiana, and you are white, you ARE the minority. Yet, sadly, there aren't any laws that cover whites.

[Pornwolf]

I know one thing, when I hire employees I hire the best person possible. There is nothing that would entice me to hire a person who couldn't do the job. Nothing. There are no smart employers are swayed by this rule. None. If the black person isn't qualified for the job that person will not be hired and vice versa for the white person.

The only place where this rule will be enforced is in the schools where, in all honesty, no one can argue with it. So few black people are going to college compared to white people so the numbers won't be felt much. Also they are still held to having to meet the standard requirements. What this means is a kid with a 1200 SAT score will only be bumped for a Black kid with a 1200 SAT score. Not a 1199 or a 1198, another 1200. The argument that less qualified blacks will be given preference over white people is a misguided one.

Affirmative action is not made to help dumb people. It just helps to make sure the people that make the final decision of hiring or admitting potential students or employers that have the same qualifications are fair. Lets face it, people like to hire others they are familiar with. If it's a woman owned biz the people hiring would give a special nod to other women. Same with race. The world is run by white men so minorities and women get the short end of the stick. That's why this was created.

The best jobs are still only to be had through relationships and one on one networking. That will never change.

Also, Clarence Thomas, the black Supreme Court justice voted against this. A white female justice actually put this in action.

[hottoddy]

What the court said is that race can be one factor in determining admission to law school. Only in that very limited sense did they uphold affirmative action.

In a simultanously decided case, they said a university could not use any kind of point, or handicap, system for minority applicants.

[Brown Bear]

I don't care what anyone says, affirmative action is discrimination. It gives certain races advantages over others. It kills meritocracy, and meritocracy is what makes freedom loving capitalist countries great.

Advancement should be based on individual ability, not on your race.

[Pornwolf]

Did you read the 2 posts above yours Mr. Bear?

[GrimShawn]

Originally posted by katman


There are actually a lot of good arguments for Affirmative Action, but so far none I've seen that make a real difference except make it difficult for the average joe to get a job.

I applaude you for standing up for what you beleive. I avtually stand somewhere in the middle, but get very tired of listening to the friends of mine who get passed over for jobs for the reason that the company wanted a minority.

If you live in Louisiana, and you are white, you ARE the minority. Yet, sadly, there aren't any laws that cover whites.

[kevinl]

As to reperation I don't know what the descendants of a Yankee soldier who lost his life fighting slavery would owe for repertaions. i would think that is a debt payed in full.

Affirmative Action has become institutionalized racism. Only by oppressing whites and hoilding them back can Blacks and Latinos get ahead. Always thought it was funny how the chinese were brought over and forced to build the transcontinetal railroad and endure extreme prejudice now not only have a higher per-captia income than whites but also have higher SAT scores.

Having been a teenager in the seventies and seeing affirmative action start out as a program to bring token minorties into companies it now must surely hold numerous whites and asians behind. I was surpised to see all Democratic candidates endorsing it so strongly that one said he would issue executive orders if the courts tried to halt racial preferences.

Working hard is not the way to get ahead in America. Whining is.

[Brown Bear]

Originally posted by Pornwolf
Did you read the 2 posts above yours Mr. Bear?

Yes, why?

[jact]

Get a haircut and get a real job.

[Digipimp]

Originally posted by Pornwolf
I know one thing, when I hire employees I hire the best person possible. There is nothing that would entice me to hire a person who couldn't do the job. Nothing. There are no smart employers are swayed by this rule. None. If the black person isn't qualified for the job that person will not be hired and vice versa for the white person.

The only place where this rule will be enforced is in the schools where, in all honesty, no one can argue with it. So few black people are going to college compared to white people so the numbers won't be felt much. Also they are still held to having to meet the standard requirements. What this means is a kid with a 1200 SAT score will only be bumped for a Black kid with a 1200 SAT score. Not a 1199 or a 1198, another 1200. The argument that less qualified blacks will be given preference over white people is a misguided one.

Affirmative action is not made to help dumb people. It just helps to make sure the people that make the final decision of hiring or admitting potential students or employers that have the same qualifications are fair. Lets face it, people like to hire others they are familiar with. If it's a woman owned biz the people hiring would give a special nod to other women. Same with race. The world is run by white men so minorities and women get the short end of the stick. That's why this was created.

The best jobs are still only to be had through relationships and one on one networking. That will never change.

Also, Clarence Thomas, the black Supreme Court justice voted against this. A white female justice actually put this in action.

Very true man. Affirmative action is an unfortunate necessity at this point in time. However it should be used not only on the basis of race but on socioeconomic factors in that poor people of all races are the largest disadvantage in our current system.

[Brown Bear]

Originally posted by Digipimp


Very true man. Affirmative action is an unfortunate necessity at this point in time. However it should be used not only on the basis of race but on socioeconomic factors in that poor people of all races are the largest disadvantage in our current system.

I don't think it's necessary. Jerry Springer is proof that white people need just as much help as minorities.

[nitemonkey]

My last girlfriends step-grandfather was a key legal identity in establishing affirmative action.
As I am comepletly against AA, her step-father and I had some great fights. He was impossible to reason with.
There was a small amount of controversy here in Australia during the Olympics when Cathy Freeman was appointed to light the flame. The fact that she was aboriginal seemed to overshadow the fact that she had previously only won a silver medal, and many Australian olympians before her had won multiple gold medals, and gone on to do charity work in the community.
He of course thought it was fantastic, but thought it was disappointing that there was not more Aboriginal representation in the Australian team. Considering that less than half a percent of Australians are Aboriginal did not seem to matter to him.

Fuck AA

[Digipimp]

Originally posted by Brown Bear


I don't think it's necessary. Jerry Springer is proof that white people need just as much help as minorities.

You might reread what I said then chief. Socioeconomic means not on the basis of race, but on social and economic status, meaning that those who are from poor areas with substandard public schools and options are allowed some help when getting into college. That means poor whites, blacks, mexicans, asians and whoever else is in that situation.

[GrimShawn]

Originally posted by jact
Get a haircut and get a real job.

[Pornwolf]

Kevin, I agree that working hard is the surefire way to win but to say what you just said would be to adopt the notion that there is no racial favoritism in our country when it comes to hiring employees and admitting students.

Honestly I was against affirmative action until it was explained that only a balanced ratio of equally skilled applicants would be considered for a boost. When you break down the numbers you will see it is fair.

Should we have to worry about this at this point in our nations history? No. Should black people be able to prosper equally without this help? Yes, if they weren't bumped for an equally skilled white person every time they are in competition for a job or a scholarship.

Wait, you say that never happens? C'mon man. I know you aren't that naive. Every race and or sex does it where possible only in this case it is primarily an option controlled by white males.

Black people will never come out of the economic and psychological ghetto they are in if they have no hope. Hope is passed on by people they can look to and say 'if he can do it, I can too!' They have very little hope right now. The only people they can look to are entertainment and sports figures. If they have more successful business people in their families and in the neighborhoods they will have a roadmap to draw on and go forward with. Unfortunately the last 40 years have been less than fair to those that want to break the glass ceiling which is part of the reason you see 'Thug Life' tattooed on people's chests.

What do you want, a black and mexican nation of broke 50 Cent clones or a nation of Kenneth Chenaults' standing behind you in the store? Everyone black, white and yellow wants the latter.

Stop looking at the blanket race card and understand the situation for what it is.

[Brown Bear]

Originally posted by Digipimp


You might reread what I said then chief. Socioeconomic means not on the basis of race, but on social and economic status, meaning that those who are from poor areas with substandard public schools and options are allowed some help when getting into college. That means poor whites, blacks, mexicans, asians and whoever else is in that situation.

Yes, I could see that being more beneficial.

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by jact
Get a haircut and get a real job.

No thanks.

Real jobs are for sheep.

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by Brown Bear


Yes, I could see that being more beneficial.

I would be for that in some ways as well but it would be harder to enforce in the workplace.

AA is for all minorities including women. It's not just a black deal as many people seem to think.

[Digipimp]

Originally posted by Brown Bear


Yes, I could see that being more beneficial.

Well then you understand that there are bigger implications and ways of seeing it then. It's just so often related to blacks specifically because traditionally there are more of them in that poor situation. However over time and immigration it has become where there are more poor people than ever, and more of them being of various races.

[Brown Bear]

Originally posted by Digipimp


Well then you understand that there are bigger implications and ways of seeing it then. It's just so often related to blacks specifically because traditionally there are more of them in that poor situation. However over time and immigration it has become where there are more poor people than ever, and more of them being of various races.

Yes, but AA doesn't just apply to people from disadvantaged communities. There is no check box on applications that asks "were you dirt poor growing up"

[Digipimp]

Originally posted by Brown Bear


Yes, but AA doesn't just apply to people from disadvantaged communities. There is no check box on applications that asks "were you dirt poor growing up"

that's why it probably needs fixed more than it needs to be gotten rid of. Honestly though everyone in this country should be allowed a college education if they so choose regardless of money or ethnicity.

[playa]

As for education:

The day when the middle class white family says that they wanna move to the black/hispanic neighborhood because they have the "Best" public school in the city, is the day they should end AA for education



I also want to point out that there is a big misconception with Asians. Most of those high test scores come from the first generation asian-american.

Do a survey on your 2nd and 3rd generation asian-american test score then they'll just become average.

as a matter of fact any first generation immigrant will generally have higher test scores.

If anyone goes to school currently know what the real problem is.
The college campus is full of women and foreigners. every class i goto its like 80% women. whats up with that?

[gothweb]

Affirmative action is not the same thing as Slave Reparations.

Affirmative action is, in effect, hiring quotas to help overcome the economic hardship and suffering inherent in the second-class-citizen status that followed the era of slavery.

Slave reparations is the silly idea that people should be paid cash by the descendents of the people who enslaved their ancestors, and people who happen to have the same skin color as the people who did so but are totally unrelated to them.

(For instance, most of my ancestors were either French Canadian farmers or 19th century German immigrants-- not a lot of slaves owned by my ancestors.)

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by playa

If anyone goes to school currently know what the real problem is.
The college campus is full of women and foreigners. every class i goto its like 80% women. whats up with that?

I dunno man but I would appreciate you sending me next semesters coursebook. I think I wanna take a fall/winter vacation on your campus.

[Brown Bear]

Originally posted by gothweb
Affirmative action is not the same thing as Slave Reparations.

Affirmative action is, in effect, hiring quotas to help overcome the economic hardship and suffering inherent in the second-class-citizen status that followed the era of slavery.

Slave reparations is the silly idea that people should be paid cash by the descendents of the people who enslaved their ancestors, and people who happen to have the same skin color as the people who did so but are totally unrelated to them.

(For instance, most of my ancestors were either French Canadian farmers or 19th century German immigrants-- not a lot of slaves owned by my ancestors.)

I'm still waiting for Italy to pay up for what the Roman Empire did to my ancestors!

[playa]

Originally posted by Pornwolf


I dunno man but I would appreciate you sending me next semesters coursebook. I think I wanna take a fall/winter vacation on your campus.

Maybe problem isn't the right choice of words

[smack]

affirmitive action. it's a sad world we live in when there must be a law to make sure that people of different colors are treated equally. unfortunely this law usually leads to bullshit. i know for example, my dad. he has worked for his company for almost 30 years now. he has been passed up for countless promotions because they are requried by law, to fill certain qoutas for minorities in managerial posaitions. it's just bullshit that people cannot be judged based on their accomplishments as individuals. their attitude, and their skills. it's an unfortuante, ignorant thing. because if it were me, i would hate to be given advantage based on who i was, not how i worked. but i suppose the world is an unfair place. so what are you to do. the sins of our forefathers are being taken out on us. i hold no predjudices and i own no slaves. and if we are ever to have true equality then the last thing we need is laws pointing out our differences.

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by smack
... i would hate to be given advantage based on who i was, not how i worked. ...

Bro, there it is again. I am harping on this because the amount of people who have been told this and repeating it as fact is amazing.

AA doesn't give people who aren't equally qualified a leg up. Only when the minority applicant is of equal or better caliber with the competition will he get a boost.

No disrespect to your father but that is the truth of the matter. His tenure should count for something but it could also be part of the reason he was passed up. More than ever the old dogs are getting the raw deals because of age thanks to us young genius computer-techno-types.

AA could just be a convenient excuse in your pops case.

[smack]

of course i don't know all the details, but my parents have always been very honest, straight up people. and i am a cynicist by nature so that might effect my view.

[playa]

from my experience i seen how AA has worked really well,
at least in the IT industry

I use to live in Dallas/Fort Worth where AA is not allowed and didn't see to many minorities and women holding jobs in the field. Especially in the mangerial side

Then i moved to Atlanta and was amazed by the diversity. Atlanta is like the richest city in america and it just showed me how AA can work. Though the upper management was still mostly white men.

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by smack
of course i don't know all the details, but my parents have always been very honest, straight up people. and i am a cynicist by nature so that might effect my view.

Oh, let me clarify, I think in a lot of cases the company gives the easy to swallow AA excuse to a lot of older employees. They did the same to an old friend of mine in Chicago so he wouldn't pursue a age discrimination suit. He worked for his company for 35 years!

I don't think your father would lie.

[playa]

Originally posted by smack
he has worked for his company for almost 30 years now. he has been passed up for countless promotions

Dude thats how big business always treats their long term employees. They do that because they don't want to give out that fat pension when they retire. and replace them with a younger and lower wage person

They have age discrimation law suits all the time

[dchottie]

I think there needs to be a lot of reducating the business community because I think a lot of them may still be under the impression that they will get in trouble by "big brother" if they don't keep an even keel on the hirings of various races.

When did they change the law regarding education?
Point in case. . . When I went to college several years ago it was a different entrance standard if you were a minority. I know this first hand because I fell into two separate races and could pretty much choose which route I went. I am caucasian but also have enough native american blood in me to qualify but it would take a great deal of research of family history to get an indian number and quite frankly i'm lazy and didn't want to do it.

When I was in school we could choose the SAT or the ACT to use as our testing method to achieve entrance to school. The minorities needed an 18 for their entrance to school or a 15 with academic probation for the first year. The caucasians needed a 21 for entrance with an 18 for academic probation. Those are the cold hard facts for when I went to school. I probably would not have known if I had not been asked which race I was applying under. I asked what the benefit was to applying under native american and that's when I was told about the lower requirements.

I think the reparations is ludicrous. I can once again relate to it because of my multi cultural background. The native americans didn't ask to be put on reservations and have the land that they had lived and worked for so many years built into cities and towns. They were forced into this. But, I don't feel as if anyone owes me anything. I'm a human being capable of fending for myself and I don't have to go to every other caucasian and say "Pay me". It just doesn't work that way. Same with African Americans or hispanic or anyone other than caucasian.

Affirmative action does a lot of harm as well though. To me it looks like a crutch. It is easy to not achieve your maximum potential and when you are passed over for something start screaming "affirmative action". I think it has become an excuse to not work as hard as you possibly can because all you have to do now is "equal" someone else and not exceed them.

I also don't understand why all the racial discrimination lawsuits that stem from minorities not being included in events or places. I could only imagine what would happen if there were a "united white college fund" or a Miss White America pageant. Could you imagine the recrimations that we would face from this?

If you want a better life or a better job then go out and educate yourself in any means that you can. Make yourself more knowledgeable and more capable of the person next to you and succeed. You may also say that poor people can't afford college but you know what I worked 50 to 60 hours a week while I was in college and took a full load of classes each semester. I was in an advanced fast track combined program for a combination bachelors/masters in accounting and a minor in small business adminstration. It doesn't get any tougher than that. And to top it all off my ex husband was a worthless slug that didn't keep a job for more than a couple of months at a time so I was paying all the bills. You make your own path. Don't count of the government or another race to cut the path for you.

I know that's long but this is something i've thought about for a long time and i've enjoyed getting to put my two cents in about it.