Idea for prison system?

[mineistaken]

Just found this comment:

Having worked inside a prison I can attest to the following.
1. We incarcerate 7x more than China and Russia.
2. The majority of inmates are non violent drug offenders.
3. They are treated exactly the same as rapists and murders.

Under this article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/wo...bastoy-nicest/

Basically talk is about rehabilitation, that when people have nicer conditions they tend to rehabilitate more.

My question/idea is about #3 of that comment - why not have separate systems/conditions for violent and non violent offenders?

[Evil1]

My question/idea is about #3 of that comment - why not have separate systems/conditions for violent and non violent offenders?

Its a for profit business model, they have no interest in "rehabilitation"

[TheSquealer]

Prison is largely retributive in nature. I.e. punishments are set according to what we feel is fair to the offense. That is largely human nature. That is what punishments are and these senses of right/wrong/fairness and punishment for wrong doing proportionate to the offence are innate traits that are even present in babies. So an argument that goes against who we are, disguised as "reason" will likely fail.

Rehabilitation is a noble thing to talk about but there is also the simple fact that many cannot be rehabilitated (i.e. psychopath serial killer, child rapist on his 4th conviction or whatever) and a certain % no matter what simply must be warehoused and taken out of society.... and rehabilitation should also be discussed and preparing people to return to society and not labeling them felons, making it impossible for them to re-assimilate.

The single largest reasons prisons are so full is because of mandatory sentencing. That would have to change as well.

[mineistaken]

Prison is largely retributive in nature. I.e. punishments are set according to what we feel is fair to the offense.

My idea would be 100% ok with this line of thinking because majority of society would agree that violent criminals should be treated harsher in prison than non violent criminals.

I am speaking about this part of the quote:

3. They are treated exactly the same as rapists and murders.

And my idea is to treat them differently.

[TheSquealer]

My idea would be 100% ok with this line of thinking because majority of society would agree that violent criminals should be treated harsher in prison than non violent criminals.

I am speaking about this part of the quote:

3. They are treated exactly the same as rapists and murders.

And my idea is to treat them differently.

But i think this is already acknowledged as a huge problem in the system and obviously things have to change as mandatory sentencing and taking the power out of judges hands to use their own discretion has put everyone in these positions. I don't see building more prisons to separate non violent and violent offenders as being an answer to the problem of too many people in prison to begin with.

And it seriously is not fair to say that low level drug offenders are treated as murderers. There are minimum security prisons, medium security prisons, maximum security prisons and supermax prisons with people being also separated within those systems. It's not accurate to say everyone is treated the same.

[livexxx]

It's Christmas, set them all free. Not like your country is based on morality with the oversea policy.

(FYI that is places that are not states of the US)

[DatePoster]

Its a for profit business model, they have no interest in "rehabilitation"

[Rochard]

We shouldn't be sending people to prison so they can "change themselves". Prison is supposed to be punishment, not rehabilitation. We need to make prison fucking horrible so that they will do anything to never go back.

[seeandsee]

they making money to them so they dont fucking care to split them...

[arock10]

Its a for profit business model, they have no interest in "rehabilitation"

The best part is when for profit prison companies make political contributions to candidates promising stricter laws...

[just a punk]

We shouldn't be sending people to prison so they can "change themselves". Prison is supposed to be punishment, not rehabilitation. We need to make prison fucking horrible so that they will do anything to never go back.

An absolutely stupid comment. Take a look at the Word's statistics and you'll see that recidivism rate in countries with rehabilitation prison systems (Norway, Denmark, Finland etc) is 10x times less than in countries with punishment systems (the USA, Russia, Brazil etc). Do the math, Einstein

[druid66]

We shouldn't be sending people to prison so they can "change themselves". Prison is supposed to be punishment, not rehabilitation. We need to make prison fucking horrible so that they will do anything to never go back.

that plus really hard work labours, problem solved.

[druid66]

An absolutely stupid comment. Take a look at the Word's statistics and you'll see that recidivism rate in countries with rehabilitation prison systems (Norway, Denmark, Finland etc) is 10x times less than in countries with punishment systems (the USA, Russia, Brazil etc). Do the math, Einstein

i would not compare criminals from norway, denmark and finland to US and Russia ones. US and Russia have way much tougher motherfuckers in their prisons.

[Sunny Day]

Naive answer

But i think this is already acknowledged as a huge problem in the system and obviously things have to change as mandatory sentencing and taking the power out of judges hands to use their own discretion has put everyone in these positions. I don't see building more prisons to separate non violent and violent offenders as being an answer to the problem of too many people in prison to begin with.

And it seriously is not fair to say that low level drug offenders are treated as murderers. There are minimum security prisons, medium security prisons, maximum security prisons and supermax prisons with people being also separated within those systems. It's not accurate to say everyone is treated the same.

You must have never been in the system. I was 25 months, for $300 worth of drugs. Due to overcrowding, spent the 1st month in the county jail in a 32 man cell. Several of the guys were murderers. Others were in for violent crimes. The next few months were in intake. Again all were lumped into the same dorms. At least 1/2 were there on drug charges. But for a couple of days shared a cell with a 19 year-old who shot and killed a fast food manager while trying to make his bank deposit. I then watched him slice up his arm in a suicide attempt. The guards were underpaid so they earned extra smuggling in contraband. One dorm you could cut the pot smoke with a knife it was so thick. I was always rated minimum custody, but spent months in Max or medium. hell we were so overcrowded they sent some of us to the women's prison. The bikers decided I needed a girlfriend so they fixed me up with a 20 year old girl who was doing double life for felony kidnap and murder.

[just a punk]

i would not compare criminals from norway, denmark and finland to US and Russia ones. US and Russia have way much tougher motherfuckers in their prisons.

So maybe it's because of different prison systems? Almost all those tougher motherfuckers are recidivists. E.g. some stupid young man gets caught for selling Marijuana or for a minor theft and goes to jail. When the prison time is out, he is ready for everything and won't stop anymore before a robbery or a murder. Because he hasn't been rehabilitated but was only punished which made him really angry and uncompromising person (remember that he was learning from his fellow neighbors - the violent offenders)

[MaDalton]

We shouldn't be sending people to prison so they can "change themselves". Prison is supposed to be punishment, not rehabilitation. We need to make prison fucking horrible so that they will do anything to never go back.

this clearly works fantastic for you so far

[Penny24Seven]

Just found this comment:


My question/idea is about #3 of that comment - why not have separate systems/conditions for violent and non violent offenders?

ummm they do LOL. Maybe every person cannot get in it but they do

[TheSquealer]

You must have never been in the system. I was 25 months, for $300 worth of drugs. Due to overcrowding, spent the 1st month in the county jail in a 32 man cell. Several of the guys were murderers. Others were in for violent crimes. The next few months were in intake. Again all were lumped into the same dorms. At least 1/2 were there on drug charges. But for a couple of days shared a cell with a 19 year-old who shot and killed a fast food manager while trying to make his bank deposit. I then watched him slice up his arm in a suicide attempt. The guards were underpaid so they earned extra smuggling in contraband. One dorm you could cut the pot smoke with a knife it was so thick. I was always rated minimum custody, but spent months in Max or medium. hell we were so overcrowded they sent some of us to the women's prison. The bikers decided I needed a girlfriend so they fixed me up with a 20 year old girl who was doing double life for felony kidnap and murder.

You are failing to distinguish between states, counties, cities etc. That is not a situation that describes everyone, everywhere, all the time (as being suggested by the use of the words "prison system" rather than clarifying the specific location). As i've said, obviously there are a lot of problems with the entire system which leads to overcrowding. Some states and counties are horrible and over crowding largely stems from harsher drug penalties, 3 strike laws, mandatory sentencing and so on.

My primary objection in these discussions is to all the fucking idiots who are incapable of basic math - where the statistical impact of harsher penalties, mandatory sentences and 3 strike laws lead to and would who would rather point to conspiracy theories of government and big business which will change nothing vs addressing the basic issues that can alleviate some of the problems with a simple stroke of the pen and repealing some sentencing laws.

And by the way... in spite of peoples constant claim of innocence because they were just "in jail for weed" does not change the fact that they are also part of the problem in choosing to break the law, knowing the risks and penalties. I don't agree with treating someone with weed like someone dealing meth, however, I still think there is a grave problem with the individual that decides to break the law, being aware of stiff penalties and is then dismissive of those facts.

For the record, i've been arrested 3 times in my life. All 3 were for warrants stemming from traffic offenses. I used to have a lot of fast cars, drove like an asshole and due to constant travel, sometimes didn't pay the tickets in time. One of times, i knew the city would put my in the minimum security prisons pre-trial facility so instead of just paying my own bail (the ticket cost + fines), I allowed them to process me and put me into the prison for my own amusement. As the door opened into a big common room, all i heard were people shouting my name. People i went to school with. It was like a class re-union for retards. I remember looking around and thinking "yeah, i think i could have easily predicted all these idiots would end up here". A couple for murder. One kid I really liked was working at an electronics store and was selling high end stereos, tvs etc and then breaking into the houses days later and stealing it all and was charged wtih like 20+ felonies. A lot of people dealing drugs and so on., This is the real question... what to do with these people. How do you identify who can be helped, who can't be helped, how do you separate them and help those who can be helped... and how do you help them.

[dyna mo]

You must have never been in the system. I was 25 months, for $300 worth of drugs. Due to overcrowding, spent the 1st month in the county jail in a 32 man cell. Several of the guys were murderers. Others were in for violent crimes. The next few months were in intake. Again all were lumped into the same dorms. At least 1/2 were there on drug charges. But for a couple of days shared a cell with a 19 year-old who shot and killed a fast food manager while trying to make his bank deposit. I then watched him slice up his arm in a suicide attempt. The guards were underpaid so they earned extra smuggling in contraband. One dorm you could cut the pot smoke with a knife it was so thick. I was always rated minimum custody, but spent months in Max or medium. hell we were so overcrowded they sent some of us to the women's prison. The bikers decided I needed a girlfriend so they fixed me up with a 20 year old girl who was doing double life for felony kidnap and murder.

sure ya did.

[Grapesoda]

My idea would be 100% ok with this line of thinking because majority of society would agree that violent criminals should be treated harsher in prison than non violent criminals.

I am speaking about this part of the quote:

3. They are treated exactly the same as rapists and murders.

And my idea is to treat them differently.

prisons are rated 1-5..... for the level of security.... honor farm to full isolation.... pelican bay is level 5... I think a regular prison has areas rated 1-4

Level I - Facilities and Camps consist primarily of open dormitories with a low security perimeter.
Level II - Facilities consist primarily of open dormitories with a secure perimeter, which may include armed coverage.
Level III - Facilities primarily have a secure perimeter with armed coverage and housing units with cells adjacent to exterior walls.
Level IV - Facilities have a secure perimeter with internal and external armed coverage and housing units or cell block housing with cells non-adjacent to exterior walls.

basically level 4 is 'under the gun 24/7' and much safer than the other levels in a prison..... the reason being in level 4 you have the convicts.... guys doing their time, some married etc with a commitment to living the best life they can while locked up... yes there are 'convict rules' however most in level 4 know the rules and try to stay out of trouble....

the lower levels is where you find the guys coming up in the system, gangbangers, assholes, kids etc...the fuck heads trying to prove themselves... unfortunately these are the very dangerous areas of prisons and where the low level and short time offenders are placed ....

no convict like being in level 1-3 with 'inmates' and fuck heads

[TheSquealer]

sure ya did.

Wait... are you suggesting that a simple weed conviction didn't put that guy in a maximum security prison and then later in a "womens prison" (state law allows this?? uhm...) ... where benevolent and kind bikers decided that a nobody of no value, with no criminal history needed a little romance in his life so they fixed him up with a lovely young girl (apparent;y not a rare commodity for male prisoners?) because no one else in the system pf higher status and stature wanted to have sex with a woman?

It all sounds quite plausible to me

[bronco67]

The best idea would be to make sure early education options are available for all children. That means state funded pre-school. We keep trying to triage all of our problems(prison), instead of going to the root of the problem, which is the kids who will someday become the inmates. But no one's interested in playing the long game. And there's not as much profit for the prison industrial complex when they don't have fresh bodies to fill their cells.

[Sunny Day]

1st time

You are failing to distinguish between states, counties, cities etc. That is not a situation that describes everyone, everywhere, all the time (as being suggested by the use of the words "prison system" rather than clarifying the specific location). As i've said, obviously there are a lot of problems with the entire system which leads to overcrowding. Some states and counties are horrible and over crowding largely stems from harsher drug penalties, 3 strike laws, mandatory sentencing and so on.

My primary objection in these discussions is to all the fucking idiots who are incapable of basic math - where the statistical impact of harsher penalties, mandatory sentences and 3 strike laws lead to and would who would rather point to conspiracy theories of government and big business which will change nothing vs addressing the basic issues that can alleviate some of the problems with a simple stroke of the pen and repealing some sentencing laws.

And by the way... in spite of peoples constant claim of innocence because they were just "in jail for weed" does not change the fact that they are also part of the problem in choosing to break the law, knowing the risks and penalties. I don't agree with treating someone with weed like someone dealing meth, however, I still think there is a grave problem with the individual that decides to break the law, being aware of stiff penalties and is then dismissive of those facts.

For the record, i've been arrested 3 times in my life. All 3 were for warrants stemming from traffic offenses. I used to have a lot of fast cars, drove like an asshole and due to constant travel, sometimes didn't pay the tickets in time. One of times, i knew the city would put my in the minimum security prisons pre-trial facility so instead of just paying my own bail (the ticket cost + fines), I allowed them to process me and put me into the prison for my own amusement. As the door opened into a big common room, all i heard were people shouting my name. People i went to school with. It was like a class re-union for retards. I remember looking around and thinking "yeah, i think i could have easily predicted all these idiots would end up here". A couple for murder. One kid I really liked was working at an electronics store and was selling high end stereos, tvs etc and then breaking into the houses days later and stealing it all and was charged wtih like 20+ felonies. A lot of people dealing drugs and so on., This is the real question... what to do with these people. How do you identify who can be helped, who can't be helped, how do you separate them and help those who can be helped... and how do you help them.

A lot of the guys were in for 1st time drug offenses. They had good jobs until the hammer fell. Only time I was ever arrested. I thought being, white, middle class, no priors I'd get no prison time. When the judge said 4-10 years I just about fell down.
It's funny, must of the guys doing time for drugs always would say they were guilty. A few would say they were guilty, but the cops could never bust them so they got set up.
It was usually the robbers, thieves and sex offenders that claim they are innocent. We got a laugh about one guy that was in our dorm room. He claimed it was his 1st time and it was for a couple of bad checks. But every couple of days he'd admit to another crime and jail/prison time. he finally admitted to over a dozen crimes.

They have classes in substance abuse and classes for sex offenders and thieves. All I knew about most of the classes I got from what people told me. But what they said was just like the substance classes a joke. The staff just went through the motions. They didn't care. They just wanted you to say, "I've seen the light and will never drink or drug again."

[mineistaken]

This is the real question... what to do with these people. How do you identify who can be helped, who can't be helped, how do you separate them and help those who can be helped... and how do you help them.

You can identify even with some common sense. I mean it won't be 100% accurate, but still. Like you identified those people from your school that you knew were going to be criminals.
On top of that common sense you add some theory, statistics and so on and you can make good assumptions which people have high chances to be life time criminals, which people have high chances to be decent citizen and so on. Again, it would not be 100% accurate, but at least much better than putting all of them in one pot and treating exactly the same.

[TheSquealer]

You can identify even with some common sense. I mean it won't be 100% accurate, but still. Like you identified those people from your school that you knew were going to be criminals.
On top of that common sense you add some theory, statistics and so on and you can make good assumptions which people have high chances to be life time criminals, which people have high chances to be decent citizen and so on. Again, it would not be 100% accurate, but at least much better than putting all of them in one pot and treating exactly the same.

mandatory sentences took "common sense" out of the equation... which is the very function of a judge to begin with.

[SuckOnThis]

But i think this is already acknowledged as a huge problem in the system and obviously things have to change as mandatory sentencing and taking the power out of judges hands to use their own discretion has put everyone in these positions.

You can thank Reagan for that.

And it seriously is not fair to say that low level drug offenders are treated as murderers. There are minimum security prisons, medium security prisons, maximum security prisons and supermax prisons with people being also separated within those systems. It's not accurate to say everyone is treated the same.

In my state it is perfectly legal for anyone over 21 to grow marijuana and to make hashish from that marijuana. The next state over in Oklahoma the same offense is life in prison for a first offense. Do you think they put those people in minimum security camps? I should also mention in Oklahoma child rapists only get 1 year behind bars.

[Sunny Day]

No Rehab

Fortunately I was in Kansas not California or some of the other states where prison is really dangerous. I knew several guys, that since they were mellow guys their state, knew they would be prey in prison, sent them to KS. In exchange KS would send them the really bad boys. Places like Texas figure one more bad ass wouldn't matter.

For the most, the staff is clueless. I spent most of one day listening to a woman describe how better my life would be if I got my GED. Dumb bitch never read my file. I probably had more college credits than she did. At one point I was going to be sent to welding school, until I pointed out my medical record. So they transferred me to a unit where I could go to computer classes. Wasn't in my room an hour and the guard told me to pack I was being moved. In 25 months I was moved to a different bunk, dorm, cell, unit or prison 30 times.

Classes will never help a sex offender. They seem to have something in their brain that can't be fixed. And most of them claim to be innocent or try to rationalize their actions. One was a doctor who traded prescriptions to a mother, so he could fuck her daughter. He described it to me as, "I like younger women, I just slipped and went too young this time." I just assumed he had sex with a 16 year-old or so the way he casually described it. After I was out, his case was in the newspaper as he was up for parole. Turns out the girl was 12. I was surprised his wife stuck by him. She was there every visiting day.

It's shocking the percentage of guys who couldn't read or write. One place I was given the job of reading A/A books onto tape so the guys could hear them. Probably 30% couldn't read or write. Their chances for failure are about 100%. That and the hustle. Everyone in prison has a hustle. For awhile one guy paid me to hold his pot as the guards thought I wasn't doing anything. Later I financed a store. The guy I financed would sell 2 of something, pop, candy, smokes and expect 3 back. I didn't do anything but collect a can of pop, a candy bar daily. I also got a an can of pop I gave to a guy that had a popcorn machine, so I got my nightly bag. Gave the guy in the next bunk a pop & a candy bar so I could watch his his color TV. One guy I knew made so much money selling drugs in prison, he set his brother up in a bail bonding business and had a new Ferrari waiting for him when he got out. Only took him 6 months for him to lose it all when he got busted again.

[DAMNMAN]

Its a for profit business model, they have no interest in "rehabilitation"

What he said.

[DAMNMAN]

We shouldn't be sending people to prison so they can "change themselves". Prison is supposed to be punishment, not rehabilitation. We need to make prison fucking horrible so that they will do anything to never go back.

The problem with this is...... That the majority of people that go to prison will get out eventually. After being in the system you describe they would be 100,000% worse than when they went in. Proven.
Treat your prisoners as you wish for them to treat you upon release.

And..... If they are never going to get out, why bother treating them like shit? Even if you change their nature, they will not be back in society anyways.

[TheSquealer]

Uhmmm how about you focus on staying out of prison like the rest of decent people on society do? Seems most people find this to be an easy task and most view it as being your very basic obligation to the rest of society.

[Sunny Day]

Believe what you want

Wait... are you suggesting that a simple weed conviction didn't put that guy in a maximum security prison and then later in a "womens prison" (state law allows this?? uhm...) ... where benevolent and kind bikers decided that a nobody of no value, with no criminal history needed a little romance in his life so they fixed him up with a lovely young girl (apparent;y not a rare commodity for male prisoners?) because no one else in the system pf higher status and stature wanted to have sex with a woman?

It all sounds quite plausible to me

The state was under federal overcrowding order so they moved out 100 of the 250 women and moved in 150 guys. How does that help overcrowding? They finally moved out all the women but the last few months moved out all the regular guys and transferred in sex offenders.
There were a few good looking girls there, but she wasn't one. She was 6'4" and weighed close to 300 lbs. A girlfriend just meant some one to talk to at evening recreation. A few couples managed to sneak in quickies. Just about every woman there was for killing her husband or boyfriend. On idiot was paroling out and was going to going to live with his new "girlfriend's grandmother until she would get parole in 20 years. She killed her husband during a fight. He had come home and found her fucking 2 guys.
One place had no fences it was the last place before parole. Every week they brought in guys who had done 10,20, 30 years. 1st Place they saw with no fence. Every week at least 1 dumbass would escape. he couldn't wait 6 more weeks. Only 1 road into town so they managed to be free a couple of hours.
No reason to make up stories about prison. Every day was another dose of insanity.

[kane]

Just found this comment:

Having worked inside a prison I can attest to the following.
1. We incarcerate 7x more than China and Russia.
2. The majority of inmates are non violent drug offenders.
3. They are treated exactly the same as rapists and murders.

Under this article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/wo...bastoy-nicest/

Basically talk is about rehabilitation, that when people have nicer conditions they tend to rehabilitate more.

My question/idea is about #3 of that comment - why not have separate systems/conditions for violent and non violent offenders?

I look at a country like Portugal as a great example of how things could work. They have basically decriminalized drugs. If you are caught buying or using drugs or in possession of drugs you don't go to jail. Instead you talk to a group that helps you make better decisions. You are offered free rehab and other things that can help you. What they have found in doing this is that since 2001 the number of addicts they have in the country has been cut in half. The number of drug users they have is no among the lowest in the EU and the number of drug related illness like STD, Hepatitis etc are falling fast.

They have learned that if you treat those who have actual drug problems as if it were a medical issue and not a criminal one you can have incredible success. Just throwing people in jail does no good. All it does is make them better criminals and it further alienates them from society.

[kane]

The problem with this is...... That the majority of people that go to prison will get out eventually. After being in the system you describe they would be 100,000% worse than when they went in. Proven.
Treat your prisoners as you wish for them to treat you upon release.

And..... If they are never going to get out, why bother treating them like shit? Even if you change their nature, they will not be back in society anyways.

Exactly. When you treat people like animals they become animals. The odds of someone who goes to prison for any significant amount of time getting out and becoming an productive member of society are already pretty long. When you cage them up and turn prison into the Lord of the Flies there is almost no chance of them going on to lead productive lives.