Question about refunds

[Honeyboo]

Have been working on revshare for 2 years and was quite happy with long rebills... till refunds came( looks like I lost more $ than I made on those joins cause of penalty...
Now thinking of shifting to PPS maybe, how's the situation there? Is it the same in case of refunds?

[madtwin]

Sponsors will deduct refunds from your future earnings - no matter if it's Revshare or PPS.

I know that only PimpRoll doesn't deduct refunds from affiliates

[wouter112]

Are you also active in mobile revenue share sales?

[signupdamnit]

That's another issue with using revshare with dishonest or unknown sponsors. They can easily claim at any time that a customer with six months worth of rebills got a refund or chargeback and then deduct a massive amount from you. You have no way of verifying whether it's true or not. Just drop the sponsor if the refund % gets too high. Usually it only gets worse.

[Google Expert]

That's another issue with using revshare with dishonest or unknown sponsors. They can easily claim at any time that a customer with six months worth of rebills got a refund or chargeback and then deduct a massive amount from you. You have no way of verifying whether it's true or not. Just drop the sponsor if the refund % gets too high. Usually it only gets worse.

if the sponsor is NATS based, then it's all transparent and they can't just take away your sales

[Honeyboo]

Are you also active in mobile revenue share sales?

Nope, I didn't try to promote mobile sites. Do they convert better than desktop versions?

[signupdamnit]

if the sponsor is NATS based, then it's all transparent and they can't just take away your sales

Are you sure about that in regards to refunds? What do you think happens when a customer calls in to the paysite and demands a refund? They have to be able to manually enter in a refund. Think about it.

It's pretty trivial to just set up a duplicate account for the customer without being tied to the affiliate too. All you do is send the customer an email saying "We had to change your account login for security reasons....everything else is the same...here is your new login name and password...sorry for any inconvenience but we take security seriously for your protection..blah". For all we know it may be possible to keep the same username and password too and be totally transparent for the customer.

It's a safe bet that a dishonest sponsor will always find a way to do stuff like this. The only way to prevent it is by the software being designed to anticipate it. In this case it would mean making sure to notify the affiliate about what is happening to their referred user.

[Honeyboo]

That's another issue with using revshare with dishonest or unknown sponsors. They can easily claim at any time that a customer with six months worth of rebills got a refund or chargeback and then deduct a massive amount from you. You have no way of verifying whether it's true or not. Just drop the sponsor if the refund % gets too high. Usually it only gets worse.

Have never heard of this before... Thought all refunds are real. What if I change to PPS? Will they deduct more as well?

[signupdamnit]

Have never heard of this before... Thought all refunds are real. What if I change to PPS? Will they deduct more as well?

Sponsors never used to deduct for PPS. It was rare. But right around the rise of the tubes (2006) that started to change too. Many now deduct on PPS too.

If you think a sponsor is playing games it's best to drop them. Once they start it only gets worse. But not every refund or chargeback is the result of sponsor games. Often they are real. Set a maximum percentage you'll tolerate and leave if they get over that. Or look for games where the refunds always seem to come right around the time when a payment would be due. That's another popular game so that you never get paid. Go with your gut.

[Google Expert]

Are you sure about that in regards to refunds? What do you think happens when a customer calls in to the paysite and demands a refund? They have to be able to manually enter in a refund. Think about it.

They issue refunds and chargebacks on a gateway level, which communicates to NATS and automatically does adjustments to your stats.

You can't manually take away sales in NATS.

[signupdamnit]

They issue refunds and chargebacks on a gateway level, which communicates to NATS and automatically does adjustments to your stats.

You can't manually take away sales in NATS.

Could be. I've never had a NATS install to play around with and am just going by what I hear and their own wiki. I'm skeptical that there isn't a way around it.

I do see based on their wiki they say certain actions can only be performed on members not associated with a biller. That's good assuming it's true. But like I said I am very hesitant to say there is no way around it. And not all sponsors are using NATS either.

[Honeyboo]

Sponsors never used to deduct for PPS. It was rare. But right around the rise of the tubes (2006) that started to change too. Many now deduct on PPS too.

If you think a sponsor is playing games it's best to drop them. Once they start it only gets worse. But not every refund or chargeback is the result of sponsor games. Often they are real. Set a maximum percentage you'll tolerate and leave if they get over that. Or look for games where the refunds always seem to come right around the time when a payment would be due. That's another popular game so that you never get paid. Go with your gut.

Do you know any sponsors who don't deduct on PPS? I think they should warn about it in FAQ at least... And those who deduct will also charge some penalty %?

[signupdamnit]

Do you know any sponsors who don't deduct on PPS? I think they should warn about it in FAQ at least... And those who deduct will also charge some penalty %?

It's not really a big deal as long as you are honest and the sponsor is honest. CB and Refunds should be rare. No more than about 2%. If on PPS check if the sponsor has shady checked hidden cross sales if they do and they are dinging you for chargebacks or refunds I would pass.

[Honeyboo]

It's not really a big deal as long as you are honest and the sponsor is honest. CB and Refunds should be rare. No more than about 2%. If on PPS check if the sponsor has shady checked hidden cross sales if they do and they are dinging you for chargebacks or refunds I would pass.

Today signups are rare too... Yes, it should be about 2% but sometimes 3 transactions at once turn into chargebacks and it's very sad. So on PPS I won't lose anything if my member joins, then rebills 2 times and then requests chargebacks for all his transactions? They won't even deduct the money I got for the join? Then it could be more profitable than on revshare

[helterskelter808]

1. Assume all sponsors are crooks and are ripping you off in some way.
2. If you're making acceptable money, despite being ripped off, that's all that matters.

[Honeyboo]

1. Assume all sponsors are crooks and are ripping you off in some way.
2. If you're making acceptable money, despite being ripped off, that's all that matters.

I think it's cause of members and the nubmer of tubes, sponsors suffer as well. Just want to know if it's more safe to work on PPS or revshare in case of refunds that quite often happen with long rebills now. This penalty % is quite unpleasant.

[PR_Glen]

signupdamnit where do you come up with this bullshit? Seriously? It's like you completely fucked up so bad that you are now inventing scams that are going on within the industry just to avoid blaming yourself...

Here's the truth about refunds. If you are finding you are getting a high number of refunds? It's not the program, its your marketing! I'd say we've maybe had 5 or 6 webmasters over the years who had a refund rate that was too high for our liking and we have had to switch them to revshare--only because we aren't in business to lose money (imagine that). Maybe not even that many out of the tens of thousands we have. I'm pretty sure I'm a little more qualified than our small time friend doing all the talking in this thread about the subject.

Hit me up and let me take a look at your sites. I don't even care if you are advertising our sites or not I'll let you know if what you are doing is attracting refunds or not. Or at least help you set it up to make it happen less often.

[Sly]

Have been working on revshare for 2 years and was quite happy with long rebills... till refunds came( looks like I lost more $ than I made on those joins cause of penalty...
Now thinking of shifting to PPS maybe, how's the situation there? Is it the same in case of refunds?

How many total sales and rebills are we talking about, against how many total refunds? Without that data, nobody can give you an accurate assessment over your traffic or the sponsor, so any reply is basically posturing and uneducated theory.

[Barry-xlovecam]

signupdamnit where do you come up with this bullshit? Seriously? It's like you completely fucked up so bad that you are now inventing scams that are going on within the industry just to avoid blaming yourself...
... ...

Hit me up and let me take a look at your sites. I don't even care if you are advertising our sites or not I'll let you know if what you are doing is attracting refunds or not. Or at least help you set it up to make it happen less often.

Well said Glen.

With a few infamous exceptions, most of us don't spend all day scheming to screw our affiliates out of their money. Refunds or chargebacks happen and we all lose, sponsors and affiliates alike.

But from the affiliate's point of view: If you really think that you are being cheated by someone -- stop sending them traffic.

[MainstreamGuy]

signupdamnit where do you come up with this bullshit? Seriously? It's like you completely fucked up so bad that you are now inventing scams that are going on within the industry just to avoid blaming yourself...

Have you seen the screenshot in his signature, Glenn ?...

Take a look -> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cebl3&s=5

Yeah that's MPA, not NATS, but anyway he's obviously NOT talking out of his ass, Glenn. And that's the point.

[OldJeff]

Shaving webmasters is passé , no reason for it.