Epoch Changes Join Forms, Conversions Suffer

[The Porn Nerd]

Could something as small as a logo change affect sales? Apparently so. Epoch - a very fine company - has changed its' standard Join forms so now there's a new Epoch logo. And guess what? Sales are not as good.

Perhaps it's also the limited amount of credit card options on the Join form, too. Now there's only 7! CCBill (by contrast) has 11.

So seven credit card options vs. eleven credit card options. Hmmm.....think I'll be sticking with CCBill until Epoch switches back it's old logo and join forms. Then add about 4 credit card options.

I love you Epoch but bad job on this one! Please fix ASAP.

[baryl]

I dont know, maybe but I do know that my Epoch sales have been in the shitter for the past month.

If it's not broke, don't fucking fix it.

[Google Expert]

middle men gonna middle

[_Richard_]

Could something as small as a logo change affect sales? Apparently so. Epoch - a very fine company - has changed its' standard Join forms so now there's a new Epoch logo. And guess what? Sales are not as good.

Perhaps it's also the limited amount of credit card options on the Join form, too. Now there's only 7! CCBill (by contrast) has 11.

So seven credit card options vs. eleven credit card options. Hmmm.....think I'll be sticking with CCBill until Epoch switches back it's old logo and join forms. Then add about 4 credit card options.

I love you Epoch but bad job on this one! Please fix ASAP.

the shape of the box will affect sales.

[icymelon]

anyone else seeing this?

[The Porn Nerd]

I dont know, maybe but I do know that my Epoch sales have been in the shitter for the past month.

If it's not broke, don't fucking fix it.

Put down the free drinks and get some sleep there Vegas Boy cause I don't know WHAT the fuck you are talking about. Sales are shitty and you don't want them fixed?

the shape of the box will affect sales.

Yes very true. The rest of the form does not seem to have changed but I'm pulling up one of my old Epoch join forms (screenshot) and comparing it now.

I have Custom Join forms for my CCBill sites but the irony is that they were based on the (old) Epoch design which converted fantastic for me. Once the CCBill Custom Epoch-like forms were in place my CCBill sales jumped 30%.

So Epoch, how about putting BACK the old join forms that were performing so well and ditching this new shittier form, eh?

[2MuchMark]

Could something as small as a logo change affect sales? Apparently so. Epoch - a very fine company - has changed its' standard Join forms so now there's a new Epoch logo. And guess what? Sales are not as good.

Perhaps it's also the limited amount of credit card options on the Join form, too. Now there's only 7! CCBill (by contrast) has 11.

So seven credit card options vs. eleven credit card options. Hmmm.....think I'll be sticking with CCBill until Epoch switches back it's old logo and join forms. Then add about 4 credit card options.

I love you Epoch but bad job on this one! Please fix ASAP.

Exactly how ago did this occur and exactly how many sales do you get per day and exactly what % have your sales dropped for you to arrive at this slam-Epoch-coz-this-must-be-their-fault and cant-possibly-be-any-other-reason conclusion?

[bangeduppeaches]

Put down the free drinks and get some sleep there Vegas Boy cause I don't know WHAT the fuck you are talking about. Sales are shitty and you don't want them fixed?

I think he's trying to say that they shouldn't have changed it in the first place..

[SwirlsGirl]

stop blaming biller for your low sales! You come off sounding bi poloar and unstable always creating threads asking how are sales....whats wrong with sales...how to increase sales,etc

stop blaming biller and look in the mirror



all in fun peabody

[dyna mo]

Exactly how ago did this occur and exactly how many sales do you get per day and exactly what % have your sales dropped for you to arrive at this slam-Epoch-coz-this-must-be-their-fault and cant-possibly-be-any-other-reason conclusion?

don't worry peeps, this guy is on it.

[Far-L]

Put down the free drinks and get some sleep there Vegas Boy cause I don't know WHAT the fuck you are talking about. Sales are shitty and you don't want them fixed??

Think you are overreacting there Mr. Peabody. The way I read that he is agreeing with you and saying that Epoch shouldn't have changed what was working.

Drink too much coffee this morning? Better hit the bong to chillax some and take that edge off...

[dyna mo]

Think you are overreacting there Mr. Peabody. The way I read that he is agreeing with you and saying that Epoch shouldn't have changed what was working.

Drink too much coffee this morning? Better hit the bong to chillax some and take that edge off...

caffeine always goes better with thc!

[baryl]

Think you are overreacting there Mr. Peabody. The way I read that he is agreeing with you and saying that Epoch shouldn't have changed what was working.

Drink too much coffee this morning? Better hit the bong to chillax some and take that edge off...

That's what I was trying to say.

[The Porn Nerd]

Think you are overreacting there Mr. Peabody. The way I read that he is agreeing with you and saying that Epoch shouldn't have changed what was working.

Drink too much coffee this morning? Better hit the bong to chillax some and take that edge off...

LOL Okay maybe I read that wrong so apologies to Vegas Boy.

That's what I was trying to say.

You posted this after my above comment so I'll apologize directly to you. LOL Sorry I misunderstood. Hope your sales are coming back soon.

THIS IS NOT A SLAM EPOCH THREAD.

Epoch is a wonderful company.

But they changed their Join forms and are now offering less credit card options so this has affected sales (in my opinion and experience) and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this or not? It could be just me so I'm asking.

I would like the old join form back.

[Far-L]

caffeine always goes better with thc!

As far as I am concerned, those are two of the most important ingredients in the recipe for civilization.

[Rand]

A little clarification is in order here.

Yes, the Epoch form is slightly updated. It reflects our new logo. And yes, the number of payment types "displayed" has changed. Now... instead of displaying, for example, the Visa credit card and the Visa Debit card we simply display the Visa logo. Cleaner form, less confusing. Same for MasterCard branding as well. Otherwise, nothing else has changed. The verbiage, fonts, etc... all remain the same.

And on the subject of the number of payment types accepted, Epoch accepts 39 different payment types. Of course, not all are displayed. You wouldn't offer a payment type specific to Germany if your customer is coming from the US. I welcome you to compare that number and methodology to our competition.

Epoch's smart payment form is quite simply the best in the business. Its design has been the most copied over the years. However it is the technology behind it which makes it the best. Auto-translating into dozens of different languages, 59 different currencies, and offering a geo-targeted selection of payment types specific to each individual customer. Every payment/join form is custom created for your individual customer and the payment types offered even take into account the type of product you offer to ensure optimal throughput.

These changes have had a positive impact on our throughput. We analyze our sales and throughput very carefully, and I can assure you that if updating the logos had an adverse effect on sales we would have reverted back to the old logos immediately.

Innovation is in the DNA in our company, and we continue to forward. We have enjoyed success for over 16 years because we always look to improve our systems and help our clients make more money, and that is what we remain committed to doing.

We don't make changes with a broad swing of the sword. It's more like the precision of a scalpel. Our interests are perfectly aligned with our valued clients. I believe everyone using Epoch as their primary processor is well aware of that fact.


.

[JFK]

Rand on the job

[The Porn Nerd]

A little clarification is in order here.

Yes, the Epoch form is slightly updated. It reflects our new logo. And yes, the number of payment types "displayed" has changed. Now... instead of displaying, for example, the Visa credit card and the Visa Debit card we simply display the Visa logo. Cleaner form, less confusing. Same for MasterCard branding as well. Otherwise, nothing else has changed. The verbiage, fonts, etc... all remain the same.

And on the subject of the number of payment types accepted, Epoch accepts 39 different payment types. Of course, not all are displayed. You wouldn't offer a payment type specific to Germany if your customer is coming from the US. I welcome you to compare that number and methodology to our competition.

Epoch's smart payment form is quite simply the best in the business. Its design has been the most copied over the years. However it is the technology behind it which makes it the best. Auto-translating into dozens of different languages, 59 different currencies, and offering a geo-targeted selection of payment types specific to each individual customer. Every payment/join form is custom created for your individual customer and the payment types offered even take into account the type of product you offer to ensure optimal throughput.

These changes have had a positive impact on our throughput. We analyze our sales and throughput very carefully, and I can assure you that if updating the logos had an adverse effect on sales we would have reverted back to the old logos immediately.

Innovation is in the DNA in our company, and we continue to forward. We have enjoyed success for over 16 years because we always look to improve our systems and help our clients make more money, and that is what we remain committed to doing.

We don't make changes with a broad swing of the sword. It's more like the precision of a scalpel. Our interests are perfectly aligned with our valued clients. I believe everyone using Epoch as their primary processor is well aware of that fact.


.

All well and good Rand, and no one (certainly not me) is questioning your backend, so to speak. All the advantages and features of how your Join forms work are indeed fantastic.

But that is NOT the issue.

How a Join form is displayed is the ENTIRE BALLGAME. What happens on the back end is fine but does not influence a surfer's initial behaviour. How something LOOKS to them does. So offering only 7 credit card options (this what it LOOKS LIKE to the surfer, he doesn't know you have 39 options) is less appealing. Plus, there's an ugly white space where an 8th credit card logo could go to make things look more balanced, at least.

So if you have so many cc options then DISPLAY MORE OF THEM. CCBill displays 11, Epoch could display more. This is important when it comes to cascades, too; a surfer sees the CCBill form with 11 options, gets denied, then cascades to Epoch where he sees....7 options, 4 less than he just got denied for!

No Rand, this is not good and I would HIGHLY encourage you to change your Join forms so that they reflect more of your excellent credit card options. What Epoch considers a more "clean" look is not what I consider to be an effective graphic. You may have data showing this new form converts better for other clients but for MY business I do not like it and should have the option to customize my Join forms so that they display more CC options.

Can we do this Rand?

[stever]

interesting when was this change made?

[Socks]

Was A/B testing done on these new forms? With who?

[DWB]

Always liked the old forms a lot. If webmasters see a difference in throughput, hopefully Epoch will let them decide which form to use.

[The Porn Nerd]

interesting when was this change made?

I noticed the changes about 3-4 weeks ago but not sure when the actual change was made. Epoch can tell us that. I did wait more than 3 weeks, and judged results, before posting all this.

Always liked the old forms a lot. If webmasters see a difference in throughput, hopefully Epoch will let them decide which form to use.

This is EXACTLY and ONLY my point and request.

What works for me, or what I am comfortable with, may or may not apply to another company, large or small.

[PornDiscounts-V]

If this was a network wide thing epoch would have reverted back. Seems to be a problem of a different sort. Perhaps you did something three weeks ago on your own end?

[Tofu]

*bipolar

There ya go. Mental illness insults should at least be spelled correctly.

[OldJeff]

stop blaming biller for your low sales! You come off sounding bi poloar and unstable always creating threads asking how are sales....whats wrong with sales...how to increase sales,etc

stop blaming biller and look in the mirror



all in fun peabody

Almost missed this.....Shut up looney

[ajrocks]

Why are you using a standard billing form in the first place. Make your own and test the hell out of every option in your design to maximize conversion. Don't leave it in the hands of someone else.

[The Porn Nerd]

If this was a network wide thing epoch would have reverted back. Seems to be a problem of a different sort. Perhaps you did something three weeks ago on your own end?

Nope, nothing else changed on any of my sites, just the Join form change.

Why are you using a standard billing form in the first place. Make your own and test the hell out of every option in your design to maximize conversion. Don't leave it in the hands of someone else.

This I would love to do but I only have control over pages on my own servers.
Third party processer Join forms are hosted on the third party processer's servers so i cannot alter them myself otherwise I would.

[SwirlsGirl]

There ya go. Mental illness insults should at least be spelled correctly.

I agree mental illness insults should be spell checked.....how's this one....middlemenitis

[Far-L]

All well and good Rand, and no one (certainly not me) is questioning your backend, so to speak. All the advantages and features of how your Join forms work are indeed fantastic.

But that is NOT the issue.

How a Join form is displayed is the ENTIRE BALLGAME. What happens on the back end is fine but does not influence a surfer's initial behaviour. How something LOOKS to them does. So offering only 7 credit card options (this what it LOOKS LIKE to the surfer, he doesn't know you have 39 options) is less appealing. Plus, there's an ugly white space where an 8th credit card logo could go to make things look more balanced, at least.

So if you have so many cc options then DISPLAY MORE OF THEM. CCBill displays 11, Epoch could display more. This is important when it comes to cascades, too; a surfer sees the CCBill form with 11 options, gets denied, then cascades to Epoch where he sees....7 options, 4 less than he just got denied for!

No Rand, this is not good and I would HIGHLY encourage you to change your Join forms so that they reflect more of your excellent credit card options. What Epoch considers a more "clean" look is not what I consider to be an effective graphic. You may have data showing this new form converts better for other clients but for MY business I do not like it and should have the option to customize my Join forms so that they display more CC options.

Can we do this Rand?

Peabody, now you went and done gone and smoked way too much weed. You are tripping.

First, I think you are the first person in the known online universe to ever say that you think CCbill has a better form layout for conversions than Epoch does. Most people I know that have seriously tested and analyzed each would say Epoch performs better. The only programs I know that put CCbill ahead in a cascade are, well, um, programs that don't actually test but just follow the CCbill herd imho.

Second, considering how much data Epoch has to draw from to make decisions of this magnitude which would stand to impact their entire processing portfolio you should perhaps give Rand a titch more credit for the effort they make "taking the scalpel" to this part of their operations.

Third, I don't know where you stand in relation to the rest of their clients but if this was something that was effecting every Epoch client don't you think there would've been a major uproar?

Sorry if this comes off sort of harsh - just playing devil's advocate, and as Swirlsgirl can tell you, all the "middlemen" processors are the devil.

[The Porn Nerd]

Peabody, now you went and done gone and smoked way too much weed. You are tripping.

First, I think you are the first person in the known online universe to ever say that you think CCbill has a better form layout for conversions than Epoch does. Most people I know that have seriously tested and analyzed each would say Epoch performs better. The only programs I know that put CCbill ahead in a cascade are, well, um, programs that don't actually test but just follow the CCbill herd imho.

Second, considering how much data Epoch has to draw from to make decisions of this magnitude which would stand to impact their entire processing portfolio you should perhaps give Rand a titch more credit for the effort they make "taking the scalpel" to this part of their operations.

Third, I don't know where you stand in relation to the rest of their clients but if this was something that was effecting every Epoch client don't you think there would've been a major uproar?

Sorry if this comes off sort of harsh - just playing devil's advocate, and as Swirlsgirl can tell you, all the "middlemen" processors are the devil.

I actually love how no one actually READS what the fuck I'm saying half the time and from Far-L I expected better than to have to recap (not to be harsh). But here goes (again):

1. I use my own customized CCBill join forms that are based on the (old) Epoch forms. This is a de facto ackowledgement that the Epoch forms are WAY better than the standard CCBill join forms (which I do not use). Once these custom CCBill forms where implemented I saw sales rise by 30%.

2. You better than anyone Far-L should know that small(er) programs can often benefit from NOT being like the masses. This is our advantage. So what often works for a larger company does not work for me. And again (and again) I was just ASKING to see if others are experiencing what I'm seeing with these new forms, thereby agreeing that my own experiences may be, well, my own.

3. Many use Epoch as a secondary processer, as I do, so perhaps many have not spotted the changes in the join forms. I have not seen any other threads about it. But if there was a problem others who use Epoch as primary would probably say something so this is what I am asking, if others have seen the same things.

(And I use CCBill as my Affiliate Program because the majority of my affiliates prefer CCBill. I have asked and this is always the response i get.)

I just want my old Epoch join forms back and Epoch is going to try and make that happen.

[PornDiscounts-V]

Many also use them as their sole processor... And they'd be here if there was a problem... How many days did you see this data coming in before attributing it to the forms?

[RyuLion]

Rand on the job

[babymaker]

Bump for ol' Peabody and Bussyness :D

[NETbilling]

Nope, nothing else changed on any of my sites, just the Join form change.


This I would love to do but I only have control over pages on my own servers.
Third party processer Join forms are hosted on the third party processer's servers so i cannot alter them myself otherwise I would.

If you are interested, NETbilling can save you $$$ in processing fees and you can host your own pages to truly maximize your conversions.

Let me know if you are interested.

Mitch

[TheSquealer]

A little clarification is in order here.

Yes, the Epoch form is slightly updated. It reflects our new logo. And yes, the number of payment types "displayed" has changed. Now... instead of displaying, for example, the Visa credit card and the Visa Debit card we simply display the Visa logo. Cleaner form, less confusing. Same for MasterCard branding as well. Otherwise, nothing else has changed. The verbiage, fonts, etc... all remain the same.

And on the subject of the number of payment types accepted, Epoch accepts 39 different payment types. Of course, not all are displayed. You wouldn't offer a payment type specific to Germany if your customer is coming from the US. I welcome you to compare that number and methodology to our competition.

Epoch's smart payment form is quite simply the best in the business. Its design has been the most copied over the years. However it is the technology behind it which makes it the best. Auto-translating into dozens of different languages, 59 different currencies, and offering a geo-targeted selection of payment types specific to each individual customer. Every payment/join form is custom created for your individual customer and the payment types offered even take into account the type of product you offer to ensure optimal throughput.

These changes have had a positive impact on our throughput. We analyze our sales and throughput very carefully, and I can assure you that if updating the logos had an adverse effect on sales we would have reverted back to the old logos immediately.

Innovation is in the DNA in our company, and we continue to forward. We have enjoyed success for over 16 years because we always look to improve our systems and help our clients make more money, and that is what we remain committed to doing.

We don't make changes with a broad swing of the sword. It's more like the precision of a scalpel. Our interests are perfectly aligned with our valued clients. I believe everyone using Epoch as their primary processor is well aware of that fact.


.

Interesting way of admitting you implement changes that dramatically affect sales and conversions without extensive testing. What is behind the form is 100% irrelevant when a single line of text, or graphics (look, feel, location, extent that its a distaction from the process), or the number of form fields, layout, look/feel, milliseconds of load time, etc etc etc can cause a -200% change in conversions or a +200% change in conversions.

This is a business of data and statistics... not a business of "innovation". Yours is not one of innovation. Its about simply facilitating a step in the user experience. If data isn't leading the way, you'll quickly find yourself lost.

[Struggle4Bucks]

3. Many use Epoch as a secondary processer, as I do, so perhaps many have not spotted the changes in the join forms. I have not seen any other threads about it. But if there was a problem others who use Epoch as primary would probably say something so this is what I am asking, if others have seen the same things.

Primary... not seeing any changes here. Not seeing any problems.

[TwinCities]

Once again, the people in this business reveal that they have very little brains. Epoch is in the processing business and they earn revenue as a percentage of YOUR revenue. So, they are not setting out to fuck up your conversions and sales. They sit on MOUNTAINS of your data in aggregate and know more about your business and processing throughput and patterns than you do. Do you think they really set out to make changes that earn themselves LESS money?

[signupdamnit]

"The customer is always right"

Unfortunately it's the general rule everywhere but in adult. What would be the problem with allowing Mr. Peabody to have his forms the old way if he so prefers?

[The Porn Nerd]

Once again, the people in this business reveal that they have very little brains. Epoch is in the processing business and they earn revenue as a percentage of YOUR revenue. So, they are not setting out to fuck up your conversions and sales. They sit on MOUNTAINS of your data in aggregate and know more about your business and processing throughput and patterns than you do. Do you think they really set out to make changes that earn themselves LESS money?

Since you asked, the answer is: yes - inadvertantly. These new forms were not based on MY business, they are not customized to MY business. They are EVERYONE'S new Join forms. So Epoch's data may be accurate and applicable to some businesses but not every business. I know for an absolute fact that what often works for a larger company does not work for my company, and vice versa. The changes made may be helping the vast majority of Epoch clients, and I hope that's the case. But for me, I prefer the older forms.

"The customer is always right"

Unfortunately it's the general rule everywhere but in adult. What would be the problem with allowing Mr. Peabody to have his forms the old way if he so prefers?

Exact-a-mundo.
(We're working on that for next week. Epoch is very helpful.)