PHP Refugees

[Brujah]

What language did you move to?

[Klen]

You mean from PHP to or to PHP from ?

[AdultKing]

I'm rather fond of Python these days, but most of our stuff is PHP.

[Babaganoosh]

I've been doing less and less PHP over the last couple of years. Most of my backend stuff is Perl and my new frontend stuff is Pyton/Django.

[videoscribe]

PHP is a very popular script. A lot of people sure use it on the internet. Many traffic trading scripts are PHP.

[FetishWeb]

PHP is a very popular script. A lot of people sure use it on the internet.

wow, sounds great! where can I buy PHP ?

[raymor]

It looks like PHP 6.0 might not suck. Still, PHP 5.0 sucks enough that we do most things in Perl if not C. The Perl 6.0 design is awesome, but we'll se if it's ever released.

[AdultKing]

I do like this quote:

"“Recalling the exact syntax for the built-in stab() function, you make a sane assumption and call shoot(GUN, FOOT); The foot shoots your gun.”

— Some user who calls theirself “plams” on the Something Awful Forums"

[brentbacardi]

Why does pHp suck? Just curious... I know it because most shit out there is php so its good to know...

[react]

ruby/rails.

[shake]

Moving to python myself. So much more powerful, and not that hard to learn coming from PHP.

Although I'll keep using PHP as well most likely, as it works well for simpler projects.

[baryl]

PHP is a very popular script. A lot of people sure use it on the internet. Many traffic trading scripts are PHP.

This guy's a spammer btw. Should go hang out in the Q&A forum with the rest of the spammers trying to pick off new people.

[brentbacardi]

This guy's a spammer btw. Should go hang out in the Q&A forum with the rest of the spammers trying to pick off new people.

Its Fatfoo reincarnated!

Hmm I think you may be too new to GFY to know that though?

[barcodes]

Use PHP and ColdFusion.
I prefer coldfusion but php is more popular withblogs, commerce, etc.
There is a custom tag where you can mix the two together which would be cool.

[Brujah]

Was picking up some Ruby skills (not Rails), and enjoyed it. Going to get familiar with Python.

[AdultKing]

Was picking up some Ruby skills (not Rails), and enjoyed it. Going to get familiar with Python.

Ruby is great, Ruby on Rails is great but its a language that seems to get in the way of what I'm wanting to achieve. Maybe I haven't put enough time into it.

I love Python, the Django framework is great , applications are superfast to develop.

However most of our stuff is written in PHP simply for legacy reasons, there's no good reason to go and rewrite everything in another language so we don't.

[Klen]

Well if i would have to use other language then it would be java.

[Klen]

It looks like PHP 6.0 might not suck. Still, PHP 5.0 sucks enough that we do most things in Perl if not C. The Perl 6.0 design is awesome, but we'll se if it's ever released.

Depend what you want to do,in some cases php can do what perl cant.

[u-Bob]

Perl. learned perl long before php and while I do use php for certain things, 90% of what I do, I do in perl.

[Babaganoosh]

Depend what you want to do,in some cases php can do what perl cant.

Like what?

[u-Bob]

Like what?

curious about that myself.

[mafia_man]

ruby/rails.

Yup, because I like Rails more than Django.

[mafia_man]

Ruby is great, Ruby on Rails is great but its a language that seems to get in the way of what I'm wanting to achieve. Maybe I haven't put enough time into it.

That's kind of a strange point. Ruby and Python are really similar, major differences being indentation and blocks etc. Also, Rails and Django are pretty similar too.

I like Rails more than Django because the template system (ERB) is cleaner and Ruby gems makes development easier. Django has an admin but I'm usually doing maintenance in a terminal.

When I do Python web development these days I'll use Web2Py.

[AdultKing]

That's kind of a strange point. Ruby and Python are really similar, major differences being indentation and blocks etc. Also, Rails and Django are pretty similar too.

I started with Python quite a while ago, I guess I've grown along with the Python way of doing things.

[Klen]

Like what?

I'l need to dig my code database to give you answer,not much examples but i do know there was something just cant remember exactly what was it.

[raymor]

Depend what you want to do,in some cases php can do what perl cant.

I'd put a bet on that. I wouldn't be at all suprised if there was something you know how to do in PHP and you don't know how to do in Perl.

There are some things that PHP can do with four different functions that all do the same thing, do_it(), DoIt(), itDoto(), and it.do(), which Perl just uses one operator for.

[raymor]

Why does pHp suck? Just curious... I know it because most shit out there is php so its good to know...

There's WHY it sucks, and HOW it sucks. For HOW it sucks, Google will bring up a million good pages. As to WHY it sucks, it sucks because it was never supposed to be a programming language from the beginning. It was designed as a blog/templating system, written in Perl. It wasn't designed as a good programming language because it wasn't designed as a programming language at all.

When people starting using it as if it were a programming language, they started adding programming-like functions, but skipped the design step. That resulted in things like cat_walk() and dog_walk(), but personWalk(). ( Perl would just have walk(). )

An exerpt from the PHP documentation is illustrative:

I don?t see the point, especially for something like PHP where most of the scripts will be rather simple and in most cases written by non-programmers who want a language with a basic logical syntax that doesn?t have too high a learning curve.

Lerdorf was trying to make a simplified system for non-programmers to create non-programs, without having to learn much if anything. He suceeded, big time. Thousands of non-programmers create all kinds of stuff in PHP without learning anything first. That's great for them. The only problem is some people BUY these piles of PHP written by the clueless, thinking they are getting actual software. They then expose this non-program written by non-programmers publicly on the web, a delight to all the crackers. Oops.

[Dejan]

PHP with jquery works just fine...

[ravo]

perl, FTW.

Oh, and I'm loving using jquery for front-end stuff.

[d-null]

[u-Bob]

perl you learn because you want to get the job done no matter what the job is.

[mafia_man]

perl, FTW.

Oh, and I'm loving using jquery for front-end stuff.

The thing about jQuery is that it should be built straight into the DOM.

[Klen]

perl you learn because you want to get the job done no matter what the job is.

Actually,when i encounter something on php what i cant do,then i call perl or other language script over exec .So no need to fully code in perl

[asdasd]

Compiled EMCA.

[brentbacardi]

well I only know html, css and php all self taught mind you and I build some cool ass shit! so blah... thinking about ruby/rails though but its not on w3schools and their shit is soooo easy to follow.

[Brujah]

well I only know html, css and php all self taught mind you and I build some cool ass shit! so blah... thinking about ruby/rails though but its not on w3schools and their shit is soooo easy to follow.

This was fun to go through.
http://railsforzombies.org/

[rowan]

I still use PHP for the majority of my websites, although I've recently started using C for non realtime / backend stuff.

Over the past few months I recoded an application that needed 400 different PHP processes consuming a total of about 2GB of RAM, into a single internally threaded C app that consumes <100MB. Internet bandwidth is now the limiting factor, rather than RAM and CPU utilisation.

[brentbacardi]

This was fun to go through.
http://railsforzombies.org/

Should I learn rails or ruby first? how does that work?

[Babaganoosh]

Should I learn rails or ruby first? how does that work?

Rails is a Ruby framework. You should know at least some Ruby before diving into a Ruby framework.

[Brujah]

Should I learn rails or ruby first? how does that work?

It's been awhile but if I remember you pickup some ruby skills with that before it does anything with rails. I might be confusing it with something else.

[raymor]

I really respect people who learn new skills. Learning complex subjects like computer science takes a lot of dedication, so I do respect those who say:

well I only know html, css and php all self taught mind you and I build some cool ass shit! so blah..

Not to pick on anyone in particular, but the number of people saying "all I know is PHP and I've no actual training in computer science, but go ahead and trust your sever to my guesses" is one reason PHP a) has a reputation as a language people write bad software in and b) caters to non-programmers.

It's awesome when people learn a bit of PHP so they can solve simple problems for themselves. It's bad when those people pretend to be qualified software engineers and sell really crappy software for complex systems to others.

[V_RocKs]

People who go to school will always rag on those who don't... Don't hate...

[mafia_man]

Should I learn rails or ruby first? how does that work?

Read through this first:

http://ruby.learncodethehardway.org/book/

[raymor]

People who go to school will always rag on those who don't... Don't hate...

Some extremely capable people didn't have much schooling. Although I have piles of comp sci and security related textbooks around here, my schooling was actually in law, not comp.sci or security. I'm not putting down people without formal schooling.

What I am saying is simply that PHP has allowed a lot of people to do a little scripting and the web and adult in particular doesn't always distinguish between people who picked up some PHP vs qualified software engineers. To design software well, you almost have to have experience with at least one high level language and one low level. To design scalable software, you need to know systems. Database architecture is a science itself, which includes relational algebra and calculus as subcomponents. If you're self taught, cool. I'm largely self taught in that I read the books and I speak with the experts independent of any college class. The books I read include the works of Codd and Date because in order to use relational databases PROFESSIONALLY, you need to understand relational algebra. To design them correctly, you need to know relational calculus. How you learn it doesn't matter, but these things make the difference between a professional and an amateur.

PHP reminds me of Lego. Like PHP, Lego is easy and you can build cool stuff with Lego, without knowing much about mechanical engineering. Just don't confuse a Lego device with a professionally fabricated item.

[Why]

i like how people who know "low level" stuff always try to rip on php coders. how many of the web's largest sites are written in pure C, or Perl, rather then PHP. how many of the most used web apps are written in php? wordpress, drupal, joomla, this forum, nats, flickr... the list is endless, so much of whats on the web most people use all day is in PHP. i believe LAMP is landing more hits a day and servicing more requests then any other stack out there.

PHP is a perfectly fine language as long as you learn to secure it properly and optimize it. I remember a day when Perl was considered easy and lots of people wrote really bad form mailer scripts they picked up on the web somewhere... this led to trillions of unsolicited emails due to poor security. ;)

@raymor, i agree that high end math skills help, when you are writing code for companies like google. most web companies do not require such skills, lets be realistic. as for php having multiple ways to do things... i dont really see that as an issue.

i think these arguments go both ways... its not he bike, its the rider.

to each his own, i like PHP, Perl and shell script, but I believe they all have their own place.

[mafia_man]

i like how people who know "low level" stuff always try to rip on php coders. how many of the web's largest sites are written in pure C, or Perl, rather then PHP. how many of the most used web apps are written in php? wordpress, drupal, joomla, this forum, nats, flickr... the list is endless, so much of whats on the web most people use all day is in PHP. i believe LAMP is landing more hits a day and servicing more requests then any other stack out there.

PHP is a perfectly fine language as long as you learn to secure it properly and optimize it. I remember a day when Perl was considered easy and lots of people wrote really bad form mailer scripts they picked up on the web somewhere... this led to trillions of unsolicited emails due to poor security. ;)

@raymor, i agree that high end math skills help, when you are writing code for companies like google. most web companies do not require such skills, lets be realistic. as for php having multiple ways to do things... i dont really see that as an issue.

i think these arguments go both ways... its not he bike, its the rider.

to each his own, i like PHP, Perl and shell script, but I believe they all have their own place.

Quoted for the truth!

There's nothing wrong with PHP (well I'm not a big fan of $ and -> syntax) but there's everything wrong with the programmers who use it.

PHP is far too easy to start using. <?php and ?> in a .php file and through it on a server, run it, that's it.

Django and Rails on the other hand are much harder to use. Sure there are build a blog in 5 mins screencasts, but deploying those in a production environment isn't as simple as uploading the files to the server.

Finally, the internet is polluted with awful PHP tutorials and snippets that allow SQL injection and XSS. Not that you can't do that in Rails and Django.

[V_RocKs]

PHP reminds me of Lego. Like PHP, Lego is easy and you can build cool stuff with Lego, without knowing much about mechanical engineering. Just don't confuse a Lego device with a professionally fabricated item.

Perfect analogy. Put legos into the hands of somebody that understands things on a larger scale and they will build you something truly amazing. Put them into less capable hands and they will build you something that works...

[2012]

[Theo]

i like how people who know "low level" stuff always try to rip on php coders. how many of the web's largest sites are written in pure C, or Perl, rather then PHP. how many of the most used web apps are written in php? wordpress, drupal, joomla, this forum, nats, flickr... the list is endless, so much of whats on the web most people use all day is in PHP. i believe LAMP is landing more hits a day and servicing more requests then any other stack out there.

so true, PHP took over

[raymor]

i like how people who know "low level" stuff always try to rip on php coders. how many of the web's largest sites are written in pure C, or Perl, rather then PHP. how many of the most used web apps are written in php? wordpress, drupal, joomla, this forum, nats, flickr... the list is endless, so much of whats on the web most people use all day is in PHP. i believe LAMP is landing more hits a day and servicing more requests then any other stack out there.

PHP is a perfectly fine language as long as you learn to secure it properly and optimize it. I remember a day when Perl was considered easy and lots of people wrote really bad form mailer scripts they picked up on the web somewhere... this led to trillions of unsolicited emails due to poor security. ;)

@raymor, i agree that high end math skills help, when you are writing code for companies like google. most web companies do not require such skills, lets be realistic. as for php having multiple ways to do things... i dont really see that as an issue.

i think these arguments go both ways... its not he bike, its the rider.

to each his own, i like PHP, Perl and shell script, but I believe they all have their own place.

As far as low level versus high level, I said a professional programer should know at least one high level language and one low level. The big sites that use PHP use PHP written by programmers who understand what it's doing at a low level. That is, they could translate the PHP to C, they picture what the C or assembler would look like, and therefore know WHY some algorithms are good and others bad. For example, I have a function in a very high level language - a rewrite rule in .htaccess. I know that rule only calls the stat() system call, and I know what stat() does in assembly, so I know it's fast. I write efficient .htaccess by understanding how that's translated to assembler. If I had no experience in C or assembler, my .htaccess wouldn't be nearly as efficient.

Regarding high level math, a relational database management system such as MySQL is a calculator for doing relational algebra. That's all MySQL is - a calculator. If you have no understanding of what relational algebra is, you won't be very good at doing relational algebra using MySQL. How many PHP scripters don't know that MySQL in a RDMS? If you don't even know what it IS, how well are you going to design schemas for it? Not well at all, obviously. MySQL is a tool for managing relational databases, but many scripts create things in MySQL that are not in fact re relational databases, so the scripts suck and break in various ways. Trying to design a MySQL database without knowing what a relational database IS is like designing a CMS without knowing what a web site is.