Not nice: CCBill

It's akin to resorting to "Oh yeah, how much cash do you make? I make $X daily!" or the "My dad can whoop your dad" comeback as I like to call it.

damn 50 hounds

More like 102. Thanks for playing.

looks like they shaved one from you on this post.

you're a little bit early arent ya

BINGO

i agree with what you have to say.

lets face it ppl there are more dishonest then honest in this industry so it can be assumed what this "feature" will be used primarily for.

cast your mind back to
PIB cash for example they were assumed to be one of the honest ppl, yeah? HA, everyone needs to get real.

CCbill can take the high road saying they didn't have intentions of this "feature" to be used in a shaving capacity, but thats cold comfort.

No it's cuz you or someone else deleted a post.

My CCBill sponsors convert the worst too, compared to others that use say Epoch or Jettis or even iBill.

However, by disclosing that info, it's pretty clear they aren't trying to hide something or build-in a FEATURE for the purpose of allowing a sponsor to fraud anyone.

It also seems to me that since the concerns have been brought up, CCBill is looking to make this information available to affiliates. So you will know if a sponsor is only paying rebills for 6 months or 2 years or whatever while advertising "For Life" on their sites. That's obvious enough isn't it, that they are trying to address the affiliate concerns on this too ?

If your affiliate status is suspended, change your links. Stop sending to the sponsor. That one seems simple enough.

One change I would like to see with CCBill is being able to use the same affiliate id with multiple ccbill sponsors. So that if my id is 123, I can use that everywhere instead of having 10 different ones for 10 different ccbill sponsors. Not a huge deal, just a convenience thing.

Its not always traffic being bad as to the reason why webmasters dont convert. At siccash, ars, silvercash, topbucks and nastydollars to name a few I always convert between 1:25 to 1:150. Granted I get the few odd periods where it blows out. But then on other programs its up in the 1:900's and higher.

Some program owners need to look at their own tours before they start saying that a webmasters traffic is the problem.


Are you saying that AdultEarners has a 16% chargeback ratio. Because if you are, you may need to look into your information on that one.

ARS loves the program and the sales it brings in. And it wasnt chargebacks it was retentions and chargebacks. We all get chargebacks every now and then. And Im fairly sure that there wouldnt be a webmaster in this industry that hasnt had a chargeback before.

Ive never figured out how a sponsor program can close someones account because their signups dont rebill. They should look at why their members areas rnt retaining before they close a webmasters account for it.

faz

The reason these features are available is beacause there is a DEMAND for it.

Thats the disturbing part.

fazman - some tours ROCK on some traffic and not others... most people don't understand that and think if it rocks for one place it should rock on the other

Exactly, its not always the traffic thats the problem. Sometimes its just the site the traffic is going to. And sometimes the tour has too much free content/video samples and the surfers are getting their rocks off before they even get to the join page.

faz

From the info i have seen posted PUBLICLY it is a 16% chargeback ratio.

Are you also adding they lost their ARS account too?

no - you missed my point COMPLETELY.

No I was referring to their personal account, not the Adult Earners account.

Lets have a think about it. If I send 10000 gay hits to cruisepatrol and the surfer knows they are going to cruisepatrol then its up to the tour to convert it. The traffic is still gay. If the site is not for them then its not my surfers fault. They just didnt like the tour, or obviously werent turned on enough by it to whip out the cc.

I'll use another example. Cruisepatrol was used because I do convert very well on it. I made 2 sites the same sort of styles I make my sites and promoted gay4cash. The sites were submitted to the exact same places as all my sites are submitted too. But instead of seeing reasonable ratios it blew out to over 1:3000. Its not always the traffic. The sites have to take some of the blame when the traffic doesnt convert. Oops forgot to mention gay4cash is a ccbill sponsor on revshare and with ratios like that I wont be making any more sites for it.

I expect at least fair ratios, anywhere from 1:20 to 1:250 is fair to me. Anything over that and im wasting my time.

faz

Faz

Are you going to be at the Aussie webmaster gathering in Surfers at the end of January?

Yep Steve. AvsCash is one of the sponsors for the function, So I will be there with bells on.

Looking forward to meeting the other aussie webmasters and having some cold ones. If the weather keeps up the way it has been here we are gonna be needing them.

faz

faz, i'm not going to spend 10 hours explaining it - but you STILL don't get it. not even close.

As a ccbill webmaster, I would much prefer this shave feature taken out altogether - I don't need it - I wouldn't ever consider using it.

I have a few webmasters who have made inexcess of $500 for a single click - I have also had webmasters make zero for 1500 clicks -

But as for convertion ratios etc -

Many ccbill webmasters do not offer trials - Conversion ratios do go much higher, but on the other hand, retion does, too -

We have just started doing trials again and now all sites convert very well -

Herein lies another problem - Not the fault of the referring webmaster nor the site traffic is sent to -
Many surfers are simply out there to get as much porn as possible for as little as they can pay - We are now noticing this:
1) Surfer signs up for cheap trial -
2) On receipt of his ccbill acceptance letter - he cancels
3) He then enters the members area.

So for prgramme owners, it becomes one hell of a balancing act trying to work out all the variables and options of which is the best to offer partners - A higher closing % with better retention $$ - Or a lower sign up Probably the same retention $$, but a far inferior retention %
Then there is the X or XX losses of pps - To remain competative, this figure has to be quite high - Makes it very difficult for programmes to compete with extremely high pps - As I do assume surfers paying for trials going to trash plug in sites cancel in the same way as they do when paying for genuine content sites...

Every so often there's a thread on GFY which is so obviously populated by trolls following an agenda to discredit someone or something else.

I see there's a multitude of these morons in this thread.

For all you independant affiliate program owners out there who are claiming CCBill shaves. Here is the difference.

When you shave, you don't tell anyone, and basically get away with it scott free. When a CCBill webmaster shaves using these new options, THE AFFILIATE WILL GET AN EMAIL !!!

Do you understand the difference now morons ?

Even with the old system, if a webmaster stopped paying affiliate dues, the site in question would vanish from the affiliates stats, so even then you knew site 'X' was no longer paying you. This is even better, you get an email.

Marie and I will see you there then

You know, if that option was revolving around a month period instead of the number of rebills, it would make all the difference in the world, and sponsor wouldn't use that option like a shaving system.

Let say you have 100 members in a particular month and that 75 of those rebill the next month. If the bar is set at 50, i loose 25 rebill the next month, etc...If this system is for limiting the number of month of rebill, it would make more sens, but this, it is a shaving system. There is no other way around it, since it uses the numbers of rebill instead of a number of months.

I want CCbill to change that option by a Max Month of rebill. If you do keep that stupid option like it is, you have to put a minimum set of rebill, because it opens the door to every possible abuses. The fact that you can't see this makes me question CCbill integrity...

In my mind you obviously did that option to attract webmaster from the other processor, because it gives them the means to shave their affiliates in an organized fation, if they wants it. And of course, some sponsors saw that opportunity immedialety...

One of the only interesting things about this thread is that it's suddenly become an issue as if it's something 'new' which it isn't.

The other interesting thing is how many people continue to be stupid enough not to realise that ANY sponsor has the ability to shave if they have a small amount of intelligence either with or without this feature. But then most well run revshares can survive happily enough without shaving and have the sense to realise biting the hand that feeds you is stupid. It's not like anyone who has a little bit of intelligence and who has been in this game more than 5 mins can't spot a sponsor that shaves or just plain sucks. Either way you simply don't use them. Shaving only really exists because of stupidity and a total lack of long-term vision on both sides of the fence.

ccBill could be considered liable if they allowed wide use of this as a shave function and for that reason alone you have to think it is not being abused.

I know Kimmy Kim disagrees but if ccBill knew of the fraud and provided means to execute it. As well as indirectly profited from it. They more then likely would implicated in it.

I am more amazed that webmasters accept the 50% with the built in 13% processor cut versus a PPS program.

You can do that now Brujah, been that way for eons.

This is because your more likely to be shaved on a PPS program than you are on a revshare. It's common business sense to know how many rebills are required to recoup the intitial payout. If you are paying out over 50 on a signup on a 20.00 bucks a month program then in order for you to make a profit, the rebills have to hit 6 months. Those running PPS programs know what I'm talking about. Affiliates are not the only expense in running a program. You have content, hosting, legal, and I can go on and on and on. But you know where I'm coming from. It's impossible to run a high PPS program without shaving.

What's amazing to me is some of you just don't care. As long as you are making the money and it's converting, that is the most important part.

As for ccbill... they are some legit reasons on why these options exist. For one thing they are not hiding anything from you. On the other hand they need to make affiliates aware of what the sponsors have pick for rebill options etc.

I'm going to give you an example, I know this is a lengthy post but I want to make a point. I will try to make this short and sweet...

We have been providing affiliate tracking services for 7 years now. We have never deliberately added anything that could be used to cheat affiliates. If it wasn't for affiliates we would be in business. We did do a feature years ago that I had forgot about. After reading about all this shaving in the adult industry ( we have been providing our services to the mainstream since our beginning and just now switching over ) I decided to refresh my memory on exactly what that feature does.

The feature we built was to reward a lower commission on rebills after the initial signup. For example you can reward 75% on the initial and then whatever you wanted on the rebill. It got me thinking, this could be used against the affiliates. The sponsor could be saying they are running a 50/50 program, but only rewarding say 30% on the rebill. I had the programmers to check every program that was using the feature and then went to verify what they were advertising. I will use latinjocks.com as an example. They had 50% set for the initial and 35% set for the rebill. I almost freaked out, they are cheating I thought. I went to the their website though and seen what they were advertising. 50% on the initial and 35% on their rebills. Exactly what their program had described.

We are in the process of checking everyone that is using the feature and making sure it matches what they are advertising. If not they will have a cancelled account. No ifs ands or buts about it.

But you see they are legit reasons behind these options.....

Sorry to make this so long but wanted to give you my insight on this and 7 years of experience in the biz. Not all sponsors are shaving, not all cc processors are making it easier for the sponsors to shave. They are giving them more options in which to reward webmasters. Can these options be used for shaving, yes. Are they being used for shaving? Probably so, not as many as you think though. They are far more running legit operations on a revshare basis than they are programs running a high PPS program.

As for us, we will have it to where webmasters can see the options that the sponsor has choosen for rebills. I will have the programmers start on it immediantly. I would advise anyone else, sponsors, cc processors, etc to do the same. Especially if you don't want to be associated with someone that shaves.

Be warned though affiliates, your high demanding PPS commissions will be dropping. With the new demand of trust leaking back into the community it will become harder for you to be shaved. However if you are not being shaved your not going to get the huge commissions you have been enjoying these last few years. All (seemingly) good things must come to an end, but once we all realize that it is better to be honest, a bigger more better thing will emerge. Trust something that is almost extinct

Sorry it took so long, but I hope I made a point. I will take my 50 some posts and crawl back into my hole

Really ? but you still have to signup through each program first, but can use your original affiliate id instead of each new one they assign ?

Thanks Brujah, other companies should do the same. Face it, if it wasn't for the affiliates, the sponsors wouldn't exist.

The high payout demand from the affiliates (of course I cannot blame them) has gotten us where we at today. You cannot have both though. You cannot have an extremely high payout program and not shave. It's simple math.

You can however have a profitable revshare program and still reward the affiliates nicely. The trick will be finding the right % on the revshare where the sponsors are making a profit, affiliates are earning some quality commissions and no one is having to shave or being shaved.

With the new visa regs in place. You will see more revshare programs in place. Sponsors that are in this for the long haul are looking for long term high profitable relationships. Not someone that is going to drive their chargeback ratio through the roof.

Eventually your going to see revshare programs decline and see one time memberships join take over to further reduce chargeback rates.

My 4

For example look at my webmaster page.
http://bikinivoyeur.com/webmasters/

There is a form there to use if you already have an existing ccbill PA #.


When you sign up for mine or any ccbill program with your existing "PA" # the program your signing up for assigns a new PA# that is linked to your main ccbill PA# that you used when signing up. You then log into your existing CCBill account and you will see my program now is in there. The PA# in your new link for my site will not be the same as your existing PA# but that doesent matter. Links to different CCBill sites are going to be different anyways as each CCBill site has a different "CA" #.

The main point is to have 1 login to all your CCBill sites to check stats and get link codes, etc etc...

Most of the PPS that I am familiar with are $35 per signup. This is usually about what a trial and conversion equal.

They then have an email collection box, cross sales, up sales and pop up sales. Not to mention people who come through my link and like it but sign up a week later as a type in.

And just a heads up but I was told ccBill processes for a couple of those "high PPS program".

You are missing the point.

We all know that shaving goes on. What is surprising is CCBill's complicity. I mean the instructions for how to shave are included in the CCBill documentation!!!

CCBIll has made it EXTREMELY easy for even the most clueless sponsor to shave affiliates on a massive scale.

Avoiding CCBill sponsors is a definite must now.

elric,

let me ask you something, which would you rather have in a revshare program. 50/50 or 75/25 (initial/reoccuring)

Or would you like to have the choice as a webmaster?

It would depend on the retention rate of the program.

Why do you ask?

ok let's say a six month retention rate or higher.

I will explain after you answer. Thank you for answering

What's the initial signup fee and what's the recurring monthly fee?

19.95

Then 50/50 makes much more sense as long as the sponsor is not shaving the rebills.

Of course, if the sponsor is shaving all the rebills using CCBill's tools, then it would make more sense to go with a non-CCBill sponsor.

Why do you ask?

I think you already know why I'm asking by the way your dodging the question ;)

Okay what if it was a one month retention rate? More than likely you would go with a 75/25 payout correct? Forget ccbill, I'm talking about ALL affiliate programs. I'm going home here in a few, if I get a reply I will post why.... screw it. I don't have time for this

You wouldn't have a choice if it wasn't for this feature. I'm not trying to defend ccbill. They need to follow up with sponsors and make sure the feature is being used correctly. As well as showing the affiliates in their stats what the sponsor has choosen for those features. Not hard to do, it's in a database and only has to be shown to affiliates as well.

elric, they are reasons for why they have this and this is what I'm trying to point out. If they do not allow you to view this info as an affiliate after they have said they would, then I would become worried.

FYI, ccbill could actually be considered as a competitor for us since they have affiliate tracking built in. But what they have is something that any revshare program should have and that is flexibility for both the sponsor and the affiliate. Not for shaving. If the affiliate is being shown exactly what the options are (the way that it should be) then it cannot be a feature described as a shaving feature. This is the only fault I see, allow the affiliates to see it.

as far as I know ccbill will be showing on the affiliate stats what your sponsor picked for that

Dude, you are blowing smoke - I answered the question. I said 50/50, given the scenario you described.

As far as me not having choice without this feature, what are you talking about? whether the feature is there or not, I still have a choice of sponsors.

And clearly, it makes more and more sense to take a hard look at non-CCBill sponsors.

No affiliate is forcing these high payouts. If you have to resort to multiple, and repeated acts of fraud to "compete" your "business sense" would be better suited to working at McDonalds or possibly a Walmart.

In my mind (and in reality), you're nothing but a mentally handicapped frenchman. Hey, look! Someone left a half-eaten Jos Louis and a bottle of Pepsi over there!

-*- An easy soltuion is to make program owners fully disclose the fact they may shave or cut future payments after an extended period fully disclosed in the affiliate stats . No disclosure = account suspended.

If not then all your offering is a shave option with no rules. PERIOD

This is bad news.

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Is there an time frame of when these changes will occur?

bump fart

Okay as an affiliate your telling me your not going to go with a sponsor that pays you more? Get real, the affiliates go where the money is at. At first no one didn't think about shaving. Now that it has gotten so bad, the affiliates are starting to take notice. If you are one that doesn't care how much you get paid as long as you are paid honestly then good for you. They should be more of you. Don't show your ignorance by saying affiliates are not the reason behind large payouts. You think these companies like paying out huge amounts of cash because they just want to?

After reading back over this post, I do admit though the sponsors are to blame as well for the same reason affiliates are at fault. GREED. The mother of all evil ;)

Okay, I don't want to make any enemies, so I will go ahead and try to lay low, but comments like that are hard not to reply to.

How legal is it if the payout structure says '50% for the life of the surfer' and they decide to cut it after 3 rebills? If it is illegal then wouldn't CCBill be in on the illegality? That's what I'd like to know :-)

I'm not a lawyer but I would think the sponor is liable. They are the ones in control of their program and advertising. They could easily start out that matching, have the feature match what they are advertising, show cc bill, cc bill goes ahead and promotes it, then the sponsor changes it. Thus defrauding affiliates.

Two things that can and should be done.

1. Show the affiliates what they need to know.
2. The affiliates keep a close eye on their sponsor and the rebills.

The feature needs to stay intact but with some provisions as I outlined earlier.

Old shit