Fuck YOU sex.com bunch of spamming assholes

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  • Choker
    Confirmed User
    • Apr 2001
    • 9024

    #1

    Fuck YOU sex.com bunch of spamming assholes

    Am I the only one that has noticed that all these fuckers do is spam their shitty ass traffic here on this board? Notice whenever anyone asks about a brokers traffic, they come in and spam their shit? example.....http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hreadid=165029 in this post I am trying to determine price to charge and this asshole comes in and spams his shit.

    quote
    Not to make fun of Choker specifically, but what is the value of 1,000,000,000 clicks from countries that have no credit cards, no dialers, no methods of payment? Like Iran and China. The answer is negative value, because it costs you bandwidth and creditability with those you also trade this. Quite frankly, trading traffic of no value is a scam, that defocuses you from making money.

    So stop trading and stop dealing with those that might cheat you. Purchase traffic from http://www.sex.com like our 2,600 other current customers. Get pure US (or pure http://france.sex.com or http://german.sex.com sorted by targeted keyword. We employ anti-fraud that is accepted by the other 50 search engines that use our results for adult searches including http://www.google.de

    Questions [email protected]


    And always the subtle hints about other brokers cheating. You guys are FUCKING pathetic. If your traffic is so fucking great, why do you have to spam your shit all the time? Lets do a search about all the complaints about your shit traffic. Wanna play assholes? You think because you own sex.com you are gods gift to adult webmasters? Fuck you.
    ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

    Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

    The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

    Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
    http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o
  • VanHeusen
    Confirmed User
    • Jul 2003
    • 536

    #2
    this should get interesting

    XXXClusivePorn $1 per email

    Comment

    • lagwagon
      Confirmed User
      • Jul 2001
      • 8464

      #3
      i read the recent article on sex.com in the wired magazine. really cool read.

      FTVGirls - FTVMilfs - DanielleFTV

      Comment

      • twistyneck
        So Fucking Banned
        • Jan 2002
        • 4660

        #4
        Sex.com rocks and they don't give you shit about where you send the traffic.

        Comment

        • Choker
          Confirmed User
          • Apr 2001
          • 9024

          #5
          Originally posted by VanHeusen
          this should get interesting
          Fuck them, they started it http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hlight=sex.com
          ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

          Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

          The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

          Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
          http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

          Comment

          • Spunky
            I need a beer
            • Jun 2002
            • 133978

            #6
            Intresting..

            Comment

            • twistyneck
              So Fucking Banned
              • Jan 2002
              • 4660

              #7
              Originally posted by spunky1
              Intresting..
              No, not really. Just another whiner, the board is full of them.

              Comment

              • Choker
                Confirmed User
                • Apr 2001
                • 9024

                #8
                Originally posted by twistyneck
                Sex.com rocks and they don't give you shit about where you send the traffic.
                That's all fine and dandy, but all they do is spam thier shit everywhere and try to hint around that every broker cheats except them. Fuck that shit. Show me one thread where they post and did not spam.
                ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                Comment

                • Zorgman
                  Confirmed User
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 6103

                  #9
                  I have no issues with sex.com traffic, infact it accounts for 90% of my income. I found out about sex.com with one of those posts on GFY.com so they have helped me.

                  This is a place for business, so let's do some. Bring it on.
                  ---

                  Comment

                  • Board Voyeur
                    Confirmed User
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 130

                    #10
                    Kinda makes you wonder though...

                    They sell geo targeted traffic themselves dont they?

                    How much would 1k Chinese hits from sex.com cost in relation to the traffic that most people KNOW will convert from Choker?

                    Comment

                    • twistyneck
                      So Fucking Banned
                      • Jan 2002
                      • 4660

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Choker


                      That's all fine and dandy, but all they do is spam thier shit everywhere and try to hint around that every broker cheats except them. Fuck that shit. Show me one thread where they post and did not spam.

                      Comment

                      • VanHeusen
                        Confirmed User
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 536

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Choker

                        Fuck them, they started it http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hlight=sex.com
                        hmm it does appear that they fired the first shot


                        XXXClusivePorn $1 per email

                        Comment

                        • beemk
                          CLICK HERE
                          • Jan 2002
                          • 20829

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Choker

                          Fuck them, they started it http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hlight=sex.com
                          my dad can beat up your dad
                          I host with Vacares

                          Comment

                          • Theo
                            HAL 9000
                            • May 2001
                            • 34515

                            #14
                            Kremen's post was very unprofessional. Maybe they should consider buying a banner here instead bushing others.

                            Comment

                            • chodadog
                              Confirmed User
                              • Apr 2002
                              • 9736

                              #15
                              Sex.com should probably thank you for the exposure. I bet they get a few more advertiser signups from this post. Nice work!
                              26 + 6 = 1

                              Comment

                              • VanHeusen
                                Confirmed User
                                • Jul 2003
                                • 536

                                #16
                                was that really posted by Kremen
                                maybe it was done by someone just trying to stir swoit??

                                XXXClusivePorn $1 per email

                                Comment

                                • Turboface
                                  Back in Black
                                  • Mar 2002
                                  • 9976

                                  #17
                                  Search Engine Optimization Services for Adult Sites

                                  Comment

                                  • Kevlar
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Mar 2003
                                    • 309

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by beemk


                                    my dad can beat up your dad
                                    SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

                                    Comment

                                    • Choker
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Apr 2001
                                      • 9024

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by twistyneck


                                      No, not really. Just another whiner, the board is full of them.
                                      And you are who again? Someone's cronie maybe?
                                      ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                      Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                      The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                      Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                      http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                      Comment

                                      • twistyneck
                                        So Fucking Banned
                                        • Jan 2002
                                        • 4660

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Choker

                                        And you are who again? Someone's cronie maybe?

                                        Comment

                                        • Choker
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Apr 2001
                                          • 9024

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by chodadog
                                          Sex.com should probably thank you for the exposure. I bet they get a few more advertiser signups from this post. Nice work!
                                          Standing offer. Buy $500 of traffic from sex.com. Make a affiliate account just for them. Buy $500 of traffic from me. Make a affiliate account with the same sponsor with me. If you do not make more net with me, I will refund the difference in profit.
                                          ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                          Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                          The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                          Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                          http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                          Comment

                                          • Peter Romero
                                            Long time no happy ending
                                            • Feb 2003
                                            • 10618

                                            #22
                                            I have been converting Choker's traffic all month long and it's all American traffic & American Credit Cards.


                                            [email protected]

                                            See them all here: https://www.Petergirls.com

                                            Comment

                                            • SomeCreep
                                              :glugglug
                                              • Mar 2003
                                              • 26118

                                              #23
                                              Sounds like Choker is filled with hate. Too much hate is destructive.

                                              Webair Hosting

                                              I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

                                              Comment

                                              • Choker
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Apr 2001
                                                • 9024

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by SomeCreep
                                                Sounds like Choker is filled with hate. Too much hate is destructive.
                                                I think sex.com is the one full of hate, I never said shit about this site, yet he talks smack about me all the time.

                                                http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hreadid=165124

                                                Just one example, he does this shit to every traffic broker's thread. Thread hijacking is SOP for these assholes.

                                                Seems to me a guy sitting on all those millions should not worry about a little pissant like me. Why does he have to resort to talking shit about his "competition" in order to get orders?
                                                ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                                Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                                The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                                Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                                http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                                Comment

                                                • SomeCreep
                                                  :glugglug
                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                  • 26118

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Choker


                                                  I think sex.com is the one full of hate, I never said shit about this site, yet he talks smack about me all the time.

                                                  http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hreadid=165124

                                                  Just one example, he does this shit to every traffic broker's thread. Thread hijacking is SOP for these assholes.

                                                  Seems to me a guy sitting on all those millions should not worry about a little pissant like me. Why does he have to resort to talking shit about his "competition" in order to get orders?
                                                  That thread is quite a low blow. I can understand where your coming from. Dont let the hate consume you. I think focusing on your work is probably the best way to deal with the situation. A few shitty threads like that arent going to hurt your business as much as you might think.

                                                  Webair Hosting

                                                  I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Zorgman
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • Aug 2002
                                                    • 6103

                                                    #26
                                                    Not to make fun of Choker specifically
                                                    I think your taking this a little too personal choker. Do what the rest of us do, deal with it and get on with life.
                                                    ---

                                                    Comment

                                                    • <IMX>
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Jun 2002
                                                      • 2728

                                                      #27
                                                      You and spotbrokers/assorted brokers/ etc./ whoever do the same thing.

                                                      It's your ploy to bring in more business.

                                                      So stop crying you spam GFY et al just as much with "contests."

                                                      Don't get mad when somebody wants to compare, shit happens.

                                                      STFU already.
                                                      $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$
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                                                      Comment

                                                      • apoklyptk
                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                        • Aug 2003
                                                        • 474

                                                        #28
                                                        Hey Choker, I'll buy your online empire from you for 2.3 million dollars.

                                                        Lmk if you're interested.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • <IMX>
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Jun 2002
                                                          • 2728

                                                          #29
                                                          Oh yeah, for those who doubt Kremen's business sense...remember he built and sold Match.com to USA interactive.

                                                          He's probably going to win a 7 perhaps 8 figure lawsuit from Versign as well.
                                                          $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$
                                                          $$$ Check out 10 FREE TRIAL SALES equals 1 FREE LAP TOP ! $$$

                                                          Comment

                                                          • pornJester
                                                            Confirmed User
                                                            • Mar 2001
                                                            • 6138

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
                                                            Kremen's post was very unprofessional. Maybe they should consider buying a banner here instead bushing others.
                                                            wasn't hungryman posting under his name?


                                                            FreshBucks | Webmaster Vault | GayAW
                                                            Trusted Names in Adult.
                                                            ICQ 9157.3698

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Choker
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Apr 2001
                                                              • 9024

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by <IMX>
                                                              You and spotbrokers/assorted brokers/ etc./ whoever do the same thing.

                                                              It's your ploy to bring in more business.

                                                              So stop crying you spam GFY et al just as much with "contests."

                                                              Don't get mad when somebody wants to compare, shit happens.

                                                              STFU already.
                                                              Yeah I'm crying my eyes out here. Comparing and talking smack about competition, well they are not the same thing, now are they? It's true desperation when someone has to resort to talking smack about thier competition in order to further their own business. My standing offer stands, either take it or STFU yourself.
                                                              ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                                              Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                                              The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                                              Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                                              http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                                              Comment

                                                              • &lt;IMX&gt;
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Jun 2002
                                                                • 2728

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Choker


                                                                Yeah I'm crying my eyes out here. Comparing and talking smack about competition, well they are not the same thing, now are they? It's true desperation when someone has to resort to talking smack about thier competition in order to further their own business. My standing offer stands, either take it or STFU yourself.
                                                                Standing offer of what?
                                                                Dude you are spamming right now, what does that say?
                                                                I don't have time to dig up all your ridiculous threads etc.
                                                                $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$
                                                                $$$ Check out 10 FREE TRIAL SALES equals 1 FREE LAP TOP ! $$$

                                                                Comment

                                                                • cluck
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Dec 2002
                                                                  • 5248

                                                                  #33
                                                                  A bit OT, but why does Choker charge more for proxy traffic than for gallery traffic?
                                                                  icq 279990726
                                                                  www.mcdonalds.com <- great money making opportunity

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Choker
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Apr 2001
                                                                    • 9024

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by cluck
                                                                    A bit OT, but why does Choker charge more for proxy traffic than for gallery traffic?
                                                                    Because guys are willing to pay this price for it. Supply and demand.
                                                                    ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                                                    Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                                                    The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                                                    Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                                                    http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • cluck
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Dec 2002
                                                                      • 5248

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Choker


                                                                      Because guys are willing to pay this price for it. Supply and demand.
                                                                      I guess it makes sense when you consider you're allowed to send it directly to paysites and the like.
                                                                      icq 279990726
                                                                      www.mcdonalds.com <- great money making opportunity

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • berg.the.red
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Feb 2003
                                                                        • 596

                                                                        #36
                                                                        no ... actually Choker is right. every time the word "traffic" is mentioned on some webmaster board and "money" is also mentioned in some context, somebody from sex.com is right there pimping their wares.
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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • sandman!
                                                                          Icq: 14420613
                                                                          • Mar 2001
                                                                          • 15427

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Choker
                                                                          Am I the only one that has noticed that all these fuckers do is spam their shitty ass traffic here on this board? Notice whenever anyone asks about a brokers traffic, they come in and spam their shit? example.....http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hreadid=165029 in this post I am trying to determine price to charge and this asshole comes in and spams his shit.

                                                                          quote
                                                                          Not to make fun of Choker specifically, but what is the value of 1,000,000,000 clicks from countries that have no credit cards, no dialers, no methods of payment? Like Iran and China. The answer is negative value, because it costs you bandwidth and creditability with those you also trade this. Quite frankly, trading traffic of no value is a scam, that defocuses you from making money.

                                                                          So stop trading and stop dealing with those that might cheat you. Purchase traffic from http://www.sex.com like our 2,600 other current customers. Get pure US (or pure http://france.sex.com or http://german.sex.com sorted by targeted keyword. We employ anti-fraud that is accepted by the other 50 search engines that use our results for adult searches including http://www.google.de

                                                                          Questions [email protected]


                                                                          And always the subtle hints about other brokers cheating. You guys are FUCKING pathetic. If your traffic is so fucking great, why do you have to spam your shit all the time? Lets do a search about all the complaints about your shit traffic. Wanna play assholes? You think because you own sex.com you are gods gift to adult webmasters? Fuck you.
                                                                          I hear ya bro
                                                                          Need WebHosting ? Email me for some great deals [email protected]

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • IMP^or^SNiTL.e
                                                                            A/S/L .. I don't names.
                                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                                            • 1177

                                                                            #38
                                                                            more fun arguements for the whole family

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Triple 6
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Feb 2002
                                                                              • 5394

                                                                              #39
                                                                              choker and kremen in a boxing ring, last man standing has better traffic, live on PPV, call now
                                                                              SIG TOO SMALL! Maximum 1200x600 button and no more than 30 text lines of ALL SIZES and COLORS. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 6240x4800 instead of a 1024x800.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • baddog
                                                                                So Fucking Banned
                                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                                • 107089

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by VanHeusen
                                                                                was that really posted by Kremen
                                                                                maybe it was done by someone just trying to stir swoit??
                                                                                That is Gary, and I think he asks a valid question. What good is a million hits of crap, unless you sell fertilizer.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • 4Pics
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Dec 2001
                                                                                  • 7952

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by baddog


                                                                                  That is Gary, and I think he asks a valid question. What good is a million hits of crap, unless you sell fertilizer.
                                                                                  His post basically calls Choker a cheater.

                                                                                  From Gary "So stop trading and stop dealing with those that might cheat you."

                                                                                  Pretty messed up.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • TheViper
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Mar 2003
                                                                                    • 2560

                                                                                    #42

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Choker
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Apr 2001
                                                                                      • 9024

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by 4Pics


                                                                                      His post basically calls Choker a cheater.

                                                                                      From Gary "So stop trading and stop dealing with those that might cheat you."

                                                                                      Pretty messed up.
                                                                                      Yep, and people act like I am over reacting. Funny thing is I used to actually refer buyers to this smuck with never even asking for anything from him in return. But then I started noticing the NUMEROUS complaints on BBS boards about his traffic quality.
                                                                                      ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                                                                      Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                                                                      The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                                                                      Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                                                                      http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • media
                                                                                        Confirmed Moneymaker
                                                                                        • Apr 2002
                                                                                        • 9853

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I notice they like to hop on threads that are sometimes irrelivant to what your talking about or asking for.. Somewhat irritating.. But hey.. thats what ignore is for if you dont like it I guess..

                                                                                        Media
                                                                                        I'm here for the violence!

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • GFED
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                          • 8121

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...hreadid=156007
                                                                                          https://www.flow.page/savethechildren

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Choker
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Apr 2001
                                                                                            • 9024

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            ROFLMAO from a guys sig in that thread

                                                                                            Joe, Master Web Developer, CollegeSucks.com
                                                                                            Join My Top List, I send very productive traffic: JOIN HERE
                                                                                            Submit your galleries: SUBMIT

                                                                                            Notice the word "traffic" in his sig? Maybe these guys are running a spam bot that looks for the word "traffic"

                                                                                            Truly pathetic either way
                                                                                            ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466

                                                                                            Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com

                                                                                            The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/

                                                                                            Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers.
                                                                                            http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • pussyluver
                                                                                              Clueless OleMan
                                                                                              • Mar 2003
                                                                                              • 11009

                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I get traffic the old fashion way, I earn it. Ya can buy all the sex.com or choker traffic you want... The best is to get your own SE and trade traffic....

                                                                                              I've bought from sex.com and choker. Didn't convert well with either one. So lets call that my fault for being a stupid newbie on gallery creation or what ever.

                                                                                              To choker's credit, he was a hell of a lot more help and forces some good practices -- like html on the big pic etc. Choker also seems to be keeping some TGPs in biz.... I doubt that sex.com is doing that???? Sex.com account just got me sales calls from their account rep. Wait, they did a banner for me.... yahoooo

                                                                                              Talk about traffic and you ARE talking about $, so WTF. Isn't this all about making $. I read the GFY board to learn what's goin on to help do better at biz. I'd rather see an argument about traffic, than hearing about some guy snorting coke off a cock at Internext. Call it a little spam, fine! I get a ton of spam everywhere I go.

                                                                                              Well, no doubt this will earn me a flame too.

                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                              • jimmyf
                                                                                                OU812
                                                                                                • Feb 2001
                                                                                                • 12651

                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by chodadog
                                                                                                Sex.com should probably thank you for the exposure. I bet they get a few more advertiser signups from this post. Nice work!
                                                                                                i would think so, maybe he's on there payroll.


                                                                                                Just kidding Choker
                                                                                                Last edited by jimmyf; 08-18-2003, 04:27 AM.
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                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • Sausage
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                                                                  • 3012

                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by pussyluver
                                                                                                  I read the GFY board to learn what's goin on to help do better at biz.
                                                                                                  You would be better to go to other board to learn. Apart from a few biggies, most of the people on here make next to nothing, and freely offer advice. There is more bad information given out than good, and I think that is intentional
                                                                                                  IW
                                                                                                  Skype : blance8888
                                                                                                  Icq : 15567120

                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                  • Obie Trice
                                                                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                                                                    • 205

                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    YEAH

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    Working...