Some real sneeky shit Healthcare Providers such as United Healthcare are doing...

[Juicy D. Links]

UH for example cant "axe" patients what they are doing is "axing" the DOCTORS that treat these patients....

News said they did a major dump across the board of alot of doctors and expect ALL other HMO;s to pull this shit as well..


Fucked Up shit

[Juicy D. Links]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/18/politi...mping-doctors/

if you want to read more

[MaDalton]

making healthcare a business based on profits for the insurance companies is THE major flaw in your system

[Minte]

obamacare v.2 coming soon to America..

This just is another example of what happens when the people that really run things flex their muscles. I've seen lots of articles stating that large numbers of doctors are just walking away from it and will only run private practices.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

obamacare v.2 coming soon to America..

This just is another example of what happens when the people that really run things flex their muscles. I've seen lots of articles stating that large numbers of doctors are just walking away from it and will only run private practices.

the article says Medicare - isnt that something different?

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

making healthcare a business based on profits for the insurance companies is THE major flaw in your system

Obama was an idiot for wasting so much political capital on ACA.. At the 14% increases that have been dumped on us each year continued it would've been but a few more years and the whole health insurance industry would've collapsed on it's own.

And the republicans were idiots for damaging their brand on fighting it. Obamacare was predestined to fail by the powers that be.

[Juicy D. Links]

Originally Posted by Minte

obamacare v.2 coming soon to America..

This just is another example of what happens when the people that really run things flex their muscles. I've seen lots of articles stating that large numbers of doctors are just walking away from it and will only run private practices.

Also alot are also turn to "CASH ONLY" ( no insurance accepted) type practices

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

making healthcare a business based on profits for the insurance companies is THE major flaw in your system

[Juicy D. Links]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

the article says Medicare - isnt that something different?

Medicare is for the old folks here ie 64/65 and older...... but if the HMO totally drops that doctor then ALL plans he was accepting are affected

[Minte]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

What are you so excited about. You constantly promote the clown behind it all.
obamacare is going to hurt far more than it will help. And make the shareholders in the insurance industry one serious boat load of cash

[L-Pink]

I found this interesting ……….

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamac...091500078.html

.

[Sly]

When you fuck with someone's money, they fuck back. Such a simple human concept that so many seem to have difficulty understanding.

Who really thought the insurance companies would lose out on this?

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

Obama was an idiot for wasting so much political capital on ACA.. At the 14% increases that have been dumped on us each year continued it would've been but a few more years and the whole health insurance would've collapsed on it's own.

And the republicans were idiots for damaging their brand on fighting it. Obamacare was predestined to fail by the powers that be.

yeah, well, being the socialist I am (at least from your point of view ), i think healthcare should be available to everyone for affordable conditions.

your system is broken for a long time because it's more profitable for insurance companies to throw out costly patients and deny treatments instead of paying for what they are supposed to pay.

because for some people profit comes first before anything else - ironically many of them also call themselves devout christians - dont know if thats funny or sad - or both

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

yeah, well, being the socialist I am (at least from your point of view ), i think healthcare should be available to everyone for affordable conditions.

your system is broken for a long time because it's more profitable for insurance companies to throw out costly patients and deny treatments instead of paying for what they are supposed to pay.

because for some people profit comes first before anything else - ironically many of them also call themselves devout christians - dont know if thats funny or sad - or both

I'm not disagreeing with you. 4 years ago, it was clear to me that obamacare was going to turn out to be exactly what it is.
And for 4 years there have been a lot of people here that have made it their point to be a *believer*.
Now they can believe this. Their deductibles are higher, the premium costs are higher and there will be less doctors for them to see. I used this word 4 years ago. McMedicine, for the masses.


edit: for any business on earth. Profit always comes first.

[_Richard_]

rather than:

'great privilege, for the select few'

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

edit: for any business on earth. Profit always comes first.

and thats why healthcare should not be a business but a service

[woj]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

your system is broken for a long time because it's more profitable for insurance companies to throw out costly patients and deny treatments instead of paying for what they are supposed to pay.

you make it sound like there is something wrong about the way they handle it...

lets say healthcare costs $100/month for 99% of the population...
and $10,000/month for 1% of the population...

A. it's a completely reasonable solution to bill $100/month 99% of the population, and tell the 1% they are shit out of luck...

B. socialist on the other hand would say, lets bill everyone $200/month and 1% isn't shit out of luck anymore...

it's debatable whether solution B is really the best plan and has nothing to do with profit/greed/etc...

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by woj

you make it sound like there is something wrong about the way they handle it...

lets say healthcare costs $100/month for 99% of the population...
and $10,000/month for 1% of the population...

A. it's a completely reasonable solution to bill $100/month 99% of the population, and tell the 1% they are shit out of luck...

B. socialist on the hand would say, lets bill everyone $200/month and 1% isn't shit out of luck anymore...

it's debatable whether solution B is really the best plan and has nothing to do with profit/greed/etc...

bailing out banks and major auto makers is socialism

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by woj

you make it sound like there is something wrong about the way they handle it...

lets say healthcare costs $100/month for 99% of the population...
and $10,000/month for 1% of the population...

A. it's a completely reasonable solution to bill $100/month 99% of the population, and tell the 1% they are shit out of luck...

B. socialist on the hand would say, lets bill everyone $200/month and 1% isn't shit out of luck anymore...

it's debatable whether solution B is really the best plan and has nothing to do with profit/greed/etc...

yes, i think very much that it is very wrong how they handle it now.

in most civilized countries you pay a percentage of your income for health insurance - and no one can be denied.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

and thats why healthcare should not be a business but a service

As long as there is someone left to innovate. The short answer is that without profits and rewards a society is destined to get very stale. If the pharma industry was state owned do you think most of the incredible advances in medicine we've enjoyed over the years would've happened? I don't.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

As long as there is someone left to innovate. The short answer is that without profits and rewards a society is destined to get very stale. If the pharma industry was state owned do you think most of the incredible advances in medicine we've enjoyed over the years would've happened? I don't.

no one said anything should be state owned - and i was only talking about health insurance companies, not pharma etc

i am not saying the system in Germany is the greatest ever, it also has flaws and they are battling increasing premiums.

but they have a system of public and private health insurance companies, the public ones cannot make profits and the private ones have to compete with the public ones and therefore cannot be much more expensive or have to offer better coverage in return.

[MaDalton]

ah - and btw - that system exists since 1892

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

no one said anything should be state owned - and i was only talking about health insurance companies, not pharma etc

i am not saying the system in Germany is the greatest ever, it also has flaws and they are battling increasing premiums.

but they have a system of public and private health insurance companies, the public ones cannot make profits and the private ones have to compete with the public ones and therefore cannot be much more expensive or have to offer better coverage in return.

Insurance company profits are only a part of the problem. Hospitals over charge, equipment manufacturers overcharge, pharma over charges, some may say doctors, nurses and staff make too much. Just eliminating insurance company profits isn't any kind of a fix for the system here.

Just curious, at what rate is the average German taxed on their income? And do they pay property tax? Sales Tax? I know they have a inheritance tax that's outrageous.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

Insurance company profits are only a part of the problem. Hospitals over charge, equipment manufacturers overcharge, pharma over charges, some may say doctors, nurses and staff make too much. Just eliminating insurance company profits isn't any kind of a fix for the system here.

Just curious, at what rate is the average German taxed on their income? And do they pay property tax? Sales Tax? I know they have a inheritance tax that's outrageous.

overcharging is not so much an issue in Germany, doctors and hospitals are paid on a case by case basis and the prices are decided by committees (as far as i know). a broken ankle for example costs the same everywhere (basically)

and we're talking just about what is covered by insurances, not plastic surgery or so - you have to pay that yourself

pharma companies still make huge profits

medical manufacturers still make huge profits (i worked in that industry for 7 years)

many doctors still live VERY comfortable

hospitals do not make profits

and its difficult to put the whole german tax system in one post - it's pretty complex.

but the average tax rate for a german that makes 60.000 Euro per year ($80K) is 28%

and they have a 19% sales tax (but its already included in the prices, you dont notice it cause you never see the net price)

and the inheritance tax is not outrageous at all for 99.9% of the people

you have 500,000 Euro free, for 1 million you pay like 65,000 tax

if you inherit 10 million euro you pay like 2 million - that hurts, true. but how many people inherit 10 million euro or more...


edit: i forgot property tax, it's pretty low, it doesnt have the same purpose like in the US. you pay like 100-200 euro per year for a flat i think

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

overcharging is not so much an issue in Germany, doctors and hospitals are paid on a case by case basis and the prices are decided by committees (as far as i know). a broken ankle for example costs the same everywhere (basically)

and we're talking just about what is covered by insurances, not plastic surgery or so - you have to pay that yourself

pharma companies still make huge profits

medical manufacturers still make huge profits (i worked in that industry for 7 years)

many doctors still live VERY comfortable

hospitals do not make profits

and its difficult to put the whole german tax system in one post - it's pretty complex.

but the average tax rate for a german that makes 60.000 Euro per year ($80K) is 28%

and they have a 19% sales tax (but its already included in the prices, you dont notice it cause you never see the net price)

and the inheritance tax is not outrageous at all for 99.9% of the people

you have 500,000 Euro free, for 1 million you pay like 65,000 tax

if you inherit 10 million euro you pay like 2 million - that hurts, true. but how many people inherit 10 million euro or more...

Remember when that Concorde crashed a few years ago. A German business associate of mine and his wife were on that plane. He owned a company in Germany.. His sons had to sell it to pay the tax of over 50,000,000 dm.

And hospitals here make big profits. They put up new buildings and add to what they have constantly. There is a small city of about 10,000 people near Milwaukee. They have had a nice hospital there for decades. A few years ago they spent over $100m on a new building.
Less than 2 years later, a large Milwaukee hospital bought up land in that same town and built a hospital at least twice the size of the one that was there. This happens all over, in the state I live in.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

Remember when that Concorde crashed a few years ago. A German business associate of mine and his wife were on that plane. He owned a company in Germany.. His sons had to sell it to pay the tax of over 50,000,000 dm.

inheritance tax was reformed in 2008

but yeah, cases like that happened and the law was changed due to that

[robwod]

Originally Posted by Minte

Insurance company profits are only a part of the problem. Hospitals over charge, equipment manufacturers overcharge, pharma over charges, some may say doctors, nurses and staff make too much. Just eliminating insurance company profits isn't any kind of a fix for the system here.

You can't look at healthcare reform, with respect to Insurance companies, without including Tort Law reform.

I don't see this happening in my lifetime.

[MaDalton]

in case you up for it with google translate:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erbscha...bzugsbetrag.29

[MrMaxwell]

They're putting HUGE pressure on people. I just took my grandmother away from united when they quadrupled her deductible quietly back in Oct. The new provider is $100/mo more, but, poor grandma can at least have the care that she deserves- now.

What a fucked up deal.

To add to that, she and my grandfather were in social security "notch years"
So even though he was a veteran who is now dead as hell as a result of his service to this disaster we've become, my grandmother is just fucked. He served and she worked 25 years and she's just fucked. She gets LESS back from SS than a common welfare bum would get.

It is a god damned outrage. I always loved my country, but, Fuck Amerikka. Maybe someday it can be America, again. Maybe.

My family has a lot of blood invested in this hell hole and I will fight for it myself if the people ever move to have it back. No matter where I am on that day- I'll be on the first flight back and I will stand with the real Americans.

[woj]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

but the average tax rate for a german that makes 60.000 Euro per year ($80K) is 28%

and they have a 19% sales tax (but its already included in the prices, you dont notice it cause you never see the net price)

In case you were interested in how much it's in the US:

According to: http://www.calcxml.com/calculators/f...tax-calculator

Gross income $80,000
Qualified plan contributions - $0
Adjusted gross income = $80,000
Standard/Itemized deductions - $6,100
Personal exemptions - $7,800
Taxable income = $66,100
Tax liability before credits $12,454
Child tax credits - $0
Estimated tax liability = $12,454

that's 15.6%

and according to: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/incometax.htm
tax for 60k Euro is about 30%

so not only are you paying DOUBLE tax on your income, when you spend it you pay DOUBLE sales tax as well...

not sure about you, but to me paying 15% and having at least extra $10k per year to spend on anything I want including healthcare is better than paying 30% and getting "free" healthcare....

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by woj

In case you were interested in how much it's in the US:

According to: http://www.calcxml.com/calculators/f...tax-calculator

Gross income $80,000
Qualified plan contributions - $0
Adjusted gross income = $80,000
Standard/Itemized deductions - $6,100
Personal exemptions - $7,800
Taxable income = $66,100
Tax liability before credits $12,454
Child tax credits - $0
Estimated tax liability = $12,454

that's 15.6%

and according to: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/incometax.htm
tax for 60k Euro is about 30%

so not only are you paying DOUBLE tax on your income, when you spend it you pay DOUBLE sales tax as well...

not sure about you, but to me paying 15% and having at least extra $10k per year to spend on anything I want including healthcare is better than paying 30% and getting "free" healthcare....

everyone has his preferences...

i live in CZ, tax rates are lower than Germany (19% i think) and health insurance is cheap (but once again: mandatory)

but some doctor practices i have been to looked a bit suspicious and not every hospital is already in the 21st century ;)

but my GP is fine, speaks english and german and my copay per visit is $1.50

[Minte]

Originally Posted by woj

In case you were interested in how much it's in the US:

According to: http://www.calcxml.com/calculators/f...tax-calculator

Gross income $80,000
Qualified plan contributions - $0
Adjusted gross income = $80,000
Standard/Itemized deductions - $6,100
Personal exemptions - $7,800
Taxable income = $66,100
Tax liability before credits $12,454
Child tax credits - $0
Estimated tax liability = $12,454

that's 15.6%

and according to: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/incometax.htm
tax for 60k Euro is about 30%

so not only are you paying DOUBLE tax on your income, when you spend it you pay DOUBLE sales tax as well...

not sure about you, but to me paying 15% and having at least extra $10k per year to spend on anything I want including healthcare is better than paying 30% and getting "free" healthcare....

I would imagine that same scenario exists everywhere there is socialized medicine. And I agree with you. To pay that much fixed income tax and then rarely if ever use healthcare would be a bitter pill to swallow.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Minte

I would imagine that same scenario exists everywhere there is socialized medicine. And I agree with you. To pay that much fixed income tax and then rarely if ever use healthcare would be a bitter pill to swallow.

and still they reelected Mrs. Merkel for the 3rd time, the economy is strong and unemployment at a record low...

seems as if people in general are not that unhappy...

also i read that property taxes in the US can be a real bitch - unless you live in Alabama or Louisiana (probably difficult to tax swamps)

[Minte]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

and still they reelected Mrs. Merkel for the 3rd time, the economy is strong and unemployment at a record low...

seems as if people in general are not that unhappy...

also i read that property taxes in the US can be a real bitch - unless you live in Alabama or Louisiana (probably difficult to tax swamps)

My comment isn't a jab at the Germans. It's what you are used to. If this is how it's been for 120 years no one has anything new to get used to. I spent 2 years in Germany, loved the country, but hated the housing. Living in very small spaces stacked on top of each other. If that was what I had grown up with it would've never been an issue.

But it's not what I grew up with. So it was...and so will be obamacare.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Minte

I would imagine that same scenario exists everywhere there is socialized medicine. And I agree with you. To pay that much fixed income tax and then rarely if ever use healthcare would be a bitter pill to swallow.

id be proud to pay more for the guarantee more people are helped

i believe you are proud people go into bankruptcy to pay overpriced hospital bills

[Minte]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

id be proud to pay more for the guarantee more people are helped

i believe you are proud people go into bankruptcy to pay overpriced hospital bills

Richard..it's easy for you to talk. You don't have anything now and almost certainly won't have anything in the future to give.

I also don't care if people go bankrupt. People go bankrupt all the time for many reasons. Most of the time it's because they are stupid. Does that ring a bell?

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Minte

Richard..it's easy for you to talk. You don't have anything now and almost certainly won't have anything in the future to give.

I also don't care if people go bankrupt. People go bankrupt all the time for many reasons. Most of the time it's because they are stupid. Does that ring a bell?

your assumptions make you a sad little man

your lack of empathy for your fellow citizens merely confirms it

[mikesouth]

Originally Posted by robwod

You can't look at healthcare reform, with respect to Insurance companies, without including Tort Law reform.

I don't see this happening in my lifetime.

RIGHT on the money but you forgot Pharmaceutical Companies

If healthcare is REALLY going to be reformed then doctors, pharma, insurance companies (health and medical malpractice) and lawyers are ALL going to have to be included and the way i see if every single one of them hates the reform...its fair

Im with you though not in my lifetime...we will have Universal care before that happens....which is really where all of this is headed

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Minte

I'm not disagreeing with you. 4 years ago, it was clear to me that obamacare was going to turn out to be exactly what it is.
And for 4 years there have been a lot of people here that have made it their point to be a *believer*.
Now they can believe this. Their deductibles are higher, the premium costs are higher and there will be less doctors for them to see. I used this word 4 years ago. McMedicine, for the masses.


edit: for any business on earth. Profit always comes first.

I won't argue if Obamacare will be successful or not before it's even started. I think we can wait and see,

However the fact is the healthcare system in this country has been fucked for years. The number one reason for the majority of bankruptcies in this country is because of medical bills. Insurances companies and actual hospitals have raped and pillaged the masses for years and years yet nothing has been done.

Even if Obamacare crashes and burns it won't be any worse than what the average American already deals with, when facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills they can't pay. My mother is going through cancer at the moment and her bills are over $350 thousand so far.. No other western country on this planet allows that kind of excessive over charging but this country, the so call land of the free home of the brave..

We don't have a free market in this country.. We have a govt subsidized ass fucking of the consumers..

[Sly]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

id be proud to pay more for the guarantee more people are helped

i believe you are proud people go into bankruptcy to pay overpriced hospital bills

The good news is, all of those who say they would be proud to pay more and help out, don't need to wait. They can head down to their local hospital, today, find a worthy candidate (there are many) and pitch in with their hospital bills.

This can be done today. You don't need a law to change in order to help out someone with their hospital bills.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Sly

The good news is, all of those who say they would be proud to pay more and help out, don't need to wait. They can head down to their local hospital, today, find a worthy candidate (there are many) and pitch in with their hospital bills.

This can be done today. You don't need a law to change in order to help out someone with their hospital bills.

in.. canada?

if i went to the hospital right now, and started to offer to pay peoples medical bills, how many do you think i would find who needed it?

[Juicy D. Links]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

and still they reelected Mrs. Merkel for the 3rd time, the economy is strong and unemployment at a record low...

seems as if people in general are not that unhappy...

also i read that property taxes in the US can be a real bitch - unless you live in Alabama or Louisiana (probably difficult to tax swamps)

Did you get contacted for content yet I sent em your way,

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Juicy D. Links

Did you get contacted for content yet I sent em your way,

I don't think so, Tim

at least no one who said that you sent them

[Juicy D. Links]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

I don't think so, Tim

at least no one who said that you sent them

maybe they used secret code name

[Minte]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

your assumptions make you a sad little man

your lack of empathy for your fellow citizens merely confirms it

My assumptions are spot on. You are what? 35...and you represent a program on GFY.
What's next? Are you going to cure cancer..

Show us Richard, what have you done for your fellow man.. Anything? There must be something grand you've done.. Let's hear about it.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by crockett

I won't argue if Obamacare will be successful or not before it's even started. I think we can wait and see,

However the fact is the healthcare system in this country has been fucked for years. The number one reason for the majority of bankruptcies in this country is because of medical bills. Insurances companies and actual hospitals have raped and pillaged the masses for years and years yet nothing has been done.

Even if Obamacare crashes and burns it won't be any worse than what the average American already deals with, when facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills they can't pay. My mother is going through cancer at the moment and her bills are over $350 thousand so far.. No other western country on this planet allows that kind of excessive over charging but this country, the so call land of the free home of the brave..

We don't have a free market in this country.. We have a govt subsidized ass fucking of the consumers..

Recent studies have shown that 42% of all personal bankruptcies are a result of medical expenses. The study also reveals that 78% of those who filed had insurance.

http://www.clearbankruptcy.com/finan...ankruptcy.aspx

[Sly]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

in.. canada?

if i went to the hospital right now, and started to offer to pay peoples medical bills, how many do you think i would find who needed it?

I specifically did not say you because you are in Canada. I said "those," as I hear Americans say this all the time as well. "I would be happy to pay more to help others!" So go do it. My cousin has $1 million in medical bills. I have $3,500 a month in medical bills. dyna mo has high medical bills. I'm sure we could create a thread right here on GFY of people that could use help with medical bills and everyone can chip in to help out.

It's what they keep offering, right? :-)

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Minte

Recent studies have shown that 42% of all personal bankruptcies are a result of medical expenses. The study also reveals that 78% of those who filed had insurance.

http://www.clearbankruptcy.com/finan...ankruptcy.aspx

Exactly, my mother has insurance as well.. Ie the system was fucked and still is. At least with Obamacare it puts some caps on things and the insurance companies can not deny anyone due to pre existing conditions.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Sly

I specifically did not say you because you are in Canada. I said "those," as I hear Americans say this all the time as well. "I would be happy to pay more to help others!" So go do it. My cousin has $1 million in medical bills. I have $3,500 a month in medical bills. dyna mo has high medical bills. I'm sure we could create a thread right here on GFY of people that could use help with medical bills and everyone can chip in to help out.

It's what they keep offering, right? :-)

ahh.. of course

Originally Posted by Minte

My assumptions are spot on. You are what? 35...and you represent a program on GFY.
What's next? Are you going to cure cancer..

Show us Richard, what have you done for your fellow man.. Anything? There must be something grand you've done.. Let's hear about it.

35! spot on. your assumptions are almost breath-taking

[Minte]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

ahh.. of course



35! spot on. your assumptions are almost breath-taking

That's it? I was waiting patiently for you to post a copy of your NOBEL award, or maybe a picture of the plaque from the local hospital where you donated large for the ___Richard___ wing.. but nothing? So you are a 35 year old program rep on GFY?

I'm seriously underwhelmed ____Richard____ I had high hopes you were going to prove me wrong.