Shaving in 2014 - An Inconvenient Truth

[DWB]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Some relevant facts about shaving from some dumb ass that has been around for 17 years

A program owner cannot shave from a CCBill sign up page, it is hosted by CCBill and all the tracking is in their hands. If you think a CCBill sale was shaved you are an idiot, if you did a test join that didn't show up, you used the wrong code.

If you think you are being shaved on rev share, you are an idiot, it is pointless, and quite honestly a waste of time for any program owner. By nature, rev share is profitable, business people do not fuck with what is profitable.

I can set your percent to 0% and you probably won't notice. That would be a shave. I could also replace your CCbill code before they get to the join. But even if you track your code to the join form, unless you're 100% sure I'm not adjusting your percent, then you really don't know. I can also choose what days or hours to reduce your percent. Perhaps I know your time zone and I drop it to zero while you are sleeping, then bring it back up to 100% when you're awake. Shave.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Doesn't matter the system, a thief can cheat them all if he is so inclined.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by Relentless

You are welcome to steal $10.00 out of my pocket and replace it with $100.00 any time you want. In fact, I encourage you to do it very often. Yes, you shaved $10.00 off my worth, but you added $90.00 to it.

On the other hand, if you take $10.00 out of my pocket and give me $100.00 but someone else is willing to steal $20.00 from me and give me $1,000.00 I will put all my time into standing closer to them so that they can reach my pocket.

The moment you take $10 and put $9.99 or less back in my pocket... we have a problem.

Response not to my question, you changed the circumstances a bit...

Agreement would not be "I steal from you 10$, but give you 100$".
Agreement would be "I will give you 100$".
And then I would steal 10$ without your knowledge and against our agreement.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Sly

That's your answer. Too many emotions.

Also, measuring on click is not the top level way to measure. Measure based on resources (time/money/loss time/money spent elsewhere) invested.

What Sly said. Some kinds of programs are super easy to send clicks to, but a small percentage buy. Other kinds of programs, like say cams, are more labor-intensive to send clicks to, but the $ per click is insanely high. The former scales more easily than the latter, but ideally one wants all the plusses.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by deltav

"To Shave Or Not To Shave, that is the question..."

OK I was going to have sushi tonight so thanks for spoiling THAT.

[Jel]

Interesting thread (or rather, 2 threads in 1). What stands out for me is that the really rich look at numbers and dismiss emotions, and rarely do those who let emotions dictate biz decisions become really rich.

Your bank balance has no emotions. Money has no emotions. EPC has no emotions.

Topic 1: yes shaving is unethical, and a cunt's move, and happens, but on a large-scale basis - doubtful

Topic 2: even if it *is* widespread, take your emotions and indignation out of the business side of it, and thus earn the most for your traffic <--- we are obviously all humans, so emotions DO come into play in lots of areas, I'd say it's about training yourself about where to be indignant. If you aren't comfy if a sponsor shaves and you KNOW this, and want to earn less but keep your natural pride/ego intact, fair play. And if you choose to accept that in certain areas of life there are certain skims, but can live with that and go for the best EPC, fair play as well.

Valid points on both sides, and I see both sides as being equally 'right', but I'll take my lead from the guys who go for EPC and (hypothetically) skimmed $$$, if it means I get a better house, more holidays, can provide for my kids better, and so on.

NB for the inevitable comebacks: accepting a skim /= going to any lengths morally to earn a few $$$

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Response not to my question, you changed the circumstances a bit... Agreement would not be "I steal from you 10$, but give you 100$".
Agreement would be "I will give you 100$". And then I would steal 10$ without your knowledge and against our agreement.

You give me 100 and steal 10 = I am +90

You give me 90 = I am +90

You give me 2,090 and steal 2000 without my knowledge = I am +90

What matters above is that I am +90.
How you arrive at paying me 90 matters much less.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

As a program owner I don't even see where shaving makes any sense in this day and age. The only kind of manipulation I have ever done to any affiliates pay is adding sales to get them motivated to send more traffic. There just aren't the sales to go around these days to even make sense of shaving, but everyone's entitled to their views.

What OldJeff said about revshare should be true, if all businesspeople were rational actors. I have always offered only revshare and attempted to promote only revshare, on exactly this logic. But it does not always work out.

What xxxjay said about number of affiliates is very relevant. I think it used to be very profitable for some program owners (ones not using CCBill or Epoch to power their programs) to shave and especially to shave smaller affiliates. There were so many affiliates that robbing a few thousand people of a couple hundred bucks was a lot of dough.

That said, even today, the programs most likely not to pay are never the ones I push a lot of joins to. I think a lot of the bad payers bank on a webmaster not being willing to make a big deal out of pursuing $200 when it would probably take as much effort as just making another $200. The difference is that the low number of affiliates still in the ecosystem makes this much less profitable, so fewer programs are going to do it.

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

If you think you are being shaved on rev share, you are an idiot, it is pointless, and quite honestly a waste of time for any program owner. By nature, rev share is profitable, business people do not fuck with what is profitable.

Tell that to the owner of Abby Winters ...

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

As a program owner I don't even see where shaving makes any sense in this day and age. The only kind of manipulation I have ever done to any affiliates pay is adding sales to get them motivated to send more traffic.

Adding non-existing sales to motivate affiliates... is like an (opposite) shaving code done in secret; I think it's better to set higher payout (revshare/pps/ppl/cpa) on existing sales of an affiliate that is worth, telling him so he also appreciates. I do this at times when worth - I would not add fake affiliate sales (as well as I do not tip my own cam girls) for motivation - it would also confuse me and require a real/fake sale report like shaving panels I am not used to. I do give some bonuses to girls but it is announced as bonus paid by us, not like a fake user made fake sale to motivate real affiliate and fake user also fake tips to motivate real model, I mean are we living in matrix?

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Jel

Interesting thread (or rather, 2 threads in 1). What stands out for me is that the really rich look at numbers and dismiss emotions, and rarely do those who let emotions dictate biz decisions become really rich.

Your bank balance has no emotions. Money has no emotions. EPC has no emotions.

Topic 1: yes shaving is unethical, and a cunt's move, and happens, but on a large-scale basis - doubtful

Topic 2: even if it *is* widespread, take your emotions and indignation out of the business side of it, and thus earn the most for your traffic <--- we are obviously all humans, so emotions DO come into play in lots of areas, I'd say it's about training yourself about where to be indignant. If you aren't comfy if a sponsor shaves and you KNOW this, and want to earn less but keep your natural pride/ego intact, fair play. And if you choose to accept that in certain areas of life there are certain skims, but can live with that and go for the best EPC, fair play as well.

Valid points on both sides, and I see both sides as being equally 'right', but I'll take my lead from the guys who go for EPC and (hypothetically) skimmed $$$, if it means I get a better house, more holidays, can provide for my kids better, and so on.

NB for the inevitable comebacks: accepting a skim /= going to any lengths morally to earn a few $$$

This.

If you don't like the people you work with... stop working with them. It's that simple. Successful people aren't sitting around all day long fretting about nonsense. They are busy turning money over. They focus their time, their thoughts and their energy on turning money over and on growth.

You will never see any measure of success by worrying about things you can't change. You adapt, adjust and move on.

[Captain Peacock]

It takes one little php <code> to implement dynamic shaving.
I know one big program that shaves mercilessly on backup processor. Make it two programs. Oh wait..

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Captain Peacock

It takes one little php <code> to implement dynamic shaving.
I know one big program that shaves mercilessly on backup processor. Make it two programs. Oh wait..

And if they shave you while paying the most, or don't shave you while paying the least for your traffic,
Explain to me how it matters at all...

[OldJeff]

Man this thread is entertaining, and that makes me happy. Lets see what trouble I can cause today

[30SalesPlus]

Some actual common business sense on GFY, WTF is going on???

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by 30SalesPlus

Some actual common business sense on GFY, WTF is going on???

Looking at your sig, I want you to be my new best friend

[dehash]

Originally Posted by Relentless

And if they shave you while paying the most, or don't shave you while paying the least for your traffic,
Explain to me how it matters at all...

What if they would pay you most and don't shave? Then it would be awesome, right? Most+noshave=big payout, webmaster will send more traffic and attract more new webmasters. Snowball of money.
You just keep saying on both threads "it is OK to shave, as long as I get paid more". One day you will not get paid few thousand dollars and owner will disappear with your money. Will it change something?
I am not talking about OldJeff here. Just about shaving. People who steal 10% one day can take all 100% and quit.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by dehash

What if they would pay you most and don't shave? Then it would be awesome, right? Most+noshave=big payout, webmaster will send more traffic and attract more new webmasters. Snowball of money. You just keep saying on both threads "it is OK to shave, as long as I get paid more". One day you will not get paid few thousand dollars and owner will disappear with your money. Will it change something? I am not talking about OldJeff here. Just about shaving. People who steal 10% one day can take all 100% and quit.

I agree with you that someone who shaves may stop paying you. What you seem to forget is that someone who doesn't shave also may stop paying you. I don't recall Epassporte 'shaving' anyone. I'm pretty sure 'Enron' never shaved anyone. On the other hand, I'd bet money that Meyer Lansky paid every person who worked with him more than they would have earned elsewhere.... I have no idea if he shaved them or not.

The list of people who definitely did not shave and then went out of business (paying nobody) is much LONGER than the list of people who may have shaved at some point and paid the most. That is a fact in every business since money was invented. It's the reason there are throngs of lawyers handling bankruptcy claims for honest companies.

^^^Read That A Couple Times So It Sinks In^^^

Bottom line is you need to watch your money. Often. I am not saying your should blindly trust site owners. You also should not blindly trust banks, car washes, affiliates, or anyone else with your money. That being said, the way to monitor your money is by looking at the clear facts in your complete control. In the instance of affiliate marketing those facts come down to 'how many clicks I sent' and 'how many dollars I received.'

All the rest is guesswork, conspiracy theories and distractions from what actually matters.

[Choopa_Pardo]

.... I thought this was going to be about growing a beard

[fuzebox]

Enjoying this thread

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Looking at your sig, I want you to be my new best friend

Ironic that you like the sig that says to "Quit whining ... " and then go and start a thread that whines about people whining.

[lucas131]

it is great how some of you guys trying to convince us that shaving is not, while there have been proven many times that some owners do all and everything to shave affiliates as much as possible ... so sorry, but all i see is some bros trying to save asses from those thieves they knows about ... think what you want, but i have seen other results than your theories few times already ...

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by lucas131

it is great how some of you guys trying to convince us that shaving is not, while there have been proven many times that some owners do all and everything to shave affiliates as much as possible ... so sorry, but all i see is some bros trying to save asses from those thieves they knows about ... think what you want, but i have seen other results than your theories few times already ...

Douchebag, bottom line is this: don't come crying to the boards that IjustOpenedMyPaysiteLastNight.net is shaving you or isn't paying you. If you don't want to stick with programs that have been around and are run by veterans,piss off.

[lucas131]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Douchebag, bottom line is this: don't come crying to the boards that IjustOpenedMyPaysiteLastNight.net is shaving you or isn't paying you. If you don't want to stick with programs that have been around and are run by veterans,piss off.

lol your word is for me like piece of shit on my shoes ...

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Douchebag, bottom line is this: don't come crying to the boards that IjustOpenedMyPaysiteLastNight.net is shaving you or isn't paying you. If you don't want to stick with programs that have been around and are run by veterans,piss off.

I work 10+ hours per day and spend 30 seconds on messages here and there like this one and people say it's still 'crying'.

We are allowed to speak. We are allowed to gather and compare notes. If you disagree you are allowed to say so.

But it's very telling how AGGRESSIVE you all get when you tell us to shut the fuck up.

[ruff]

It's funny to me how I can get a new affiliate program up and running and it starts becoming successful and generating a good monthly income. Then after about a month or two that income stabilizes at a certain amount and doesn't deviate by maybe $100 or so every month thereafter. It does not matter how much more traffic I send or even whether I ignore it, that's is the amount I get every month. No up or down, just fairly constant. I've seen this for years and so have most of you. Ever ask yourselves why that is?

[NewNick]

Originally Posted by ruff

It's funny to me how I can get a new affiliate program up and running and it starts becoming successful and generating a good monthly income. Then after about a month or two that income stabilizes at a certain amount and doesn't deviate by maybe $100 or so every month thereafter. It does not matter how much more traffic I send or even whether I ignore it, that's is the amount I get every month. No up or down, just fairly constant. I've seen this for years and so have most of you. Ever ask yourselves why that is?

Nothing unusual if you understand statistics and traffic quality.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by NewNick

Nothing unusual if you understand statistics and traffic quality.

That's a glib reply. I think after 16 years in the business, I have a very clear understanding of statistics and traffic quality. That's exactly why certain things don't add up the way they should. Other webmasters at my experience level will understand the point I was making.

[pornmasta]

Originally Posted by Relentless

There was a long thread years ago about shaving and the part I still don't understand is how it matters when you can calculate $ per click.

A) I send 10,000 clicks to program A and earn 22 cents per click

B) I send 10,000 clicks to program B and earn 9 cents per click


Do I care if program A shaved me? No. They paid me the most money per click.

Do I care if program B did not shave me? No. They paid me the least money per click.

If this is a business for you and not a hobby, why does anyone care about anything beyond one simple number: HOW MUCH MONEY THEY PAY YOU PER CLICK

As long as the site is not damaging your brand or treating your customers badly, isn't $ / clicks all that matters?

Can anyone explain that to me? Please?

Then you'll wonder why you make less and less money with your website.
They will for sure blame the economic crisis for your shitty ratio... but it's shaving...

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by ruff

It's funny to me how I can get a new affiliate program up and running and it starts becoming successful and generating a good monthly income. Then after about a month or two that income stabilizes at a certain amount and doesn't deviate by maybe $100 or so every month thereafter. It does not matter how much more traffic I send or even whether I ignore it, that's is the amount I get every month. No up or down, just fairly constant. I've seen this for years and so have most of you. Ever ask yourselves why that is?

I'm hesitant to talk about it in this thread given the person who started it and some of the people it has attracted but what the hell. Who gives a fuck?

It could be legit. Especially if you are doing a high volume. But it's also the most sophisticated and professional shaver type as well. A performance based shaver which "shaves the growth". It sets a baseline and then shaves any growth over that in a period say 30-90%. A very sophisticated setup might also utilize "fake refunds and chargebacks" (for affiliates who cannot verify them). This would be the type of shaver a multi-million dollar company would be using if they would use any shaver at all. Perhaps with additional functions added in to try to find test signups or add in a degree of randomness while still keeping the shave. The advantages of this setup are numerous as are the possibilities. It might also have built in functions to relax the shave if it detects a huge amount of growth so as not to piss off the new whale.

People don't realize that there is a ton of money involved and it's not always going to be the old style "straight 30% shaver" of the past when it's in use at all. Anything is possible with the programming. Any programmer will tell you that.

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

I'm hesitant to talk about it in this thread given the person who started it and some of the people it has attracted but what the hell. Who gives a fuck?

What, no Nobel prize guys posted?

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by pornmasta

Then you'll wonder why you make less and less money with your website.
They will for sure blame the economic crisis for your shitty ratio... but it's shaving...

I won't make less and less. I'll make more and more.
It's not a difficult concept.

I send traffic to the sites that actually pay the best for it.
If they stop paying the best, I send it to the site paying me better.
If no sponsors pay well, I either make my own sponsor site or stop promoting that niche.

The only exceptions are, I won't promote sites that treat my traffic badly and I factor in how hard it is to generate clicks each can convert.
Obviously I only promote legal sites and everything I say should be taken in that context.

All the rest are silly distractions.
Focus on who pays the best and how to get paid more
Why anyone pays less or pays more is only important if you plan to launch a competing site.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by adultmobile

Adding non-existing sales to motivate affiliates... is like an (opposite) shaving code done in secret

I was seriously beginning to think I was the only one that caught that.

Adding sales to provide a false sense of achievement and success is just as shady as taking sales away. I thought the practice died out a long time ago but apparently not.

[ITraffic]

more sponsors prob add sales nowadays then shave them.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

I'm hesitant to talk about it in this thread given the person who started it and some of the people it has attracted but what the hell. Who gives a fuck?

It could be legit. Especially if you are doing a high volume. But it's also the most sophisticated and professional shaver type as well. A performance based shaver which "shaves the growth". It sets a baseline and then shaves any growth over that in a period say 30-90%. A very sophisticated setup might also utilize "fake refunds and chargebacks" (for affiliates who cannot verify them). This would be the type of shaver a multi-million dollar company would be using if they would use any shaver at all. Perhaps with additional functions added in to try to find test signups or add in a degree of randomness while still keeping the shave. The advantages of this setup are numerous as are the possibilities. It might also have built in functions to relax the shave if it detects a huge amount of growth so as not to piss off the new whale.

People don't realize that there is a ton of money involved and it's not always going to be the old style "straight 30% shaver" of the past when it's in use at all. Anything is possible with the programming. Any programmer will tell you that.

On the affiliate side - something I know little about, or not as much as on the Sponser side - I can totally understand this phenomenon and have experienced it myself with regards to cams and dating upsells.

On the Program Owner side of things I often wonder if something similar (tho I wouldn't classify it as 'shaving' per se but perhaps this is all just semantics) happens with 3rd party billers. They calculate your basic volume and any growth above that is red-flagged somehow as suspicious and the scrub increases. A LARGE uptick in form hits etc might shake things up but a 'slow rise/growth' seems difficult. So I'm wondering if something like this happens with processing, too.

But I like how you pointed out this may be happening with large companies. I agree with that, since they have the resources, etc.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by ITraffic

more sponsors prob add sales nowadays then shave them.

Please name one or post sort of proof if you can. The only ones I know were guilty of it went out of business a long time ago so I would be surprised to find ones that still do.

[freecartoonporn]

i dont have time to argue, but you are an IDIOT.

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by mopek1

Ironic that you like the sig that says to "Quit whining ... " and then go and start a thread that whines about people whining.

You obviously have a poor understanding of whining. Allow me to explain.

Ohhhhhhh assfuck affiliate program must be shaving I sent 30 clicks and there are no sales. This is whining.


Shut up you fucking cunt, you wouldn't know shaving from your first communion, it doesn't happen anywhere near the level most of the mcfryccoks on this board think, and it never happens among real business people. This is a public service announcement.

Christ people grow some hair on your ass.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Dude, stop lifting my CS emails to affiliates

Dear Piss Ant,

You have sent 4 sales in the past 30 days, 2 have refunded (likely your brother in law you asked to sign up) the other 2 have canceled after the first billing, so after payout, processing fees, normal overhead, etc. I have netted $4.86 from your sales this month.
Kindly fuck off and annoy someone else you whiny cunt

Best Regards
Joe Program Owner

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by ITraffic

more sponsors prob add sales nowadays then shave them.

Lots of sponsors pay for free signups (cpa / ppl), i.e. give money in exchange of no sales anyway.

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Ohhhhhhh assfuck affiliate program must be shaving I sent 30 clicks and there are no sales. This is whining.

Ohhhhhhh assfuck thread starters are whining about being shaved !!

Sorry but you are whining too.

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

A very sophisticated setup might also utilize "fake refunds and chargebacks" (for affiliates who cannot verify them).

I have had many sponsors over the years and for most my chargeback ratio is very small.

For one though it is HUGE!

Same traffic being sent to all???

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by ruff

It's funny to me how I can get a new affiliate program up and running and it starts becoming successful and generating a good monthly income. Then after about a month or two that income stabilizes at a certain amount and doesn't deviate by maybe $100 or so every month thereafter. It does not matter how much more traffic I send or even whether I ignore it, that's is the amount I get every month. No up or down, just fairly constant. I've seen this for years and so have most of you. Ever ask yourselves why that is?

I've also had that happen.

Even more noticeable an experience is when a program changes processors and suddenly conversions take a dive after years of promotion.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by mopek1

I have had many sponsors over the years and for most my chargeback ratio is very small.
For one though it is HUGE!
Same traffic being sent to all???

If that C/B ratio causes someone else to pay you more than they do per click... Send your traffic to the higher payer.
If it doesn't... Keep sending it to them.
Why they have a higher c/b doesn't matter one bit
Any time spent wondering about it is a wasteful distraction
Just move on, or don't.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by lucas131

lol your word is for me like piece of shit on my shoes ...

That's why you live in the shit hole that you do.

[Robbie]

I joined Dollar Shave Club.
I pay $3 a month for a supply of razors. Saves a fortune from going to the drugstore and overpaying just to shave.

How come this thread has so many replies? Seems simple to me. Just buy your razors cheaper. Or, if you don't have much facial hair...get an electric razor.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I joined Dollar Shave Club.
I pay $3 a month for a supply of razors. Saves a fortune from going to the drugstore and overpaying just to shave.

I want to try that thing. Razors are WAY too expensive. Like $16 for 3 blades of Gilette Sensors. Crazy shit.

[dehash]

Buy pack of 52 Gillette in Costco for 30$

[freecartoonporn]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I joined Dollar Shave Club.
I pay $3 a month for a supply of razors. Saves a fortune from going to the drugstore and overpaying just to shave.

How come this thread has so many replies? Seems simple to me. Just buy your razors cheaper. Or, if you don't have much facial hair...get an electric razor.

saw their commercial, and liked it but never joined it, still using mach 3

[NewNick]

The strange thing is you all wonder why programs are all moving away from the affiliates business model.

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by NewNick

The strange thing is you all wonder why programs are all moving away from the affiliates business model.

Although what you say is true it's been more of the opposite overall. Over the last five years affiliates have left adult in droves. The affiliate programs are still there it's just that the [non-tube] affiliates willing to seriously promote them aren't.

So it could be turned around.

"The strange thing is you all wonder why affiliates are all moving away from [have already left] adult"

It's not because the opportunity to promote your programs is returning great value for the affiliate. And that is the bottom line on it. People will not work for pennies per hour when something else pays dollars per hour.