A few ideas to beat Tubes and improve the business.
 

Was talking this over with a friend on ICQ want some opinions on why these ideas will and will not work. They are based on the belief that unless we win customers back they can't be forced to buy. So both are about improving members areas.

These two will hurt Tube sites.
The first one we already tried and know it works. Every night we give members a free hour long live show. And every night lots of them log in to watch. If they want a private 1-1 they can have it at a cut rate price. We take a cut in our affiliate slice as all we want to do is retain and convert members.

The second we have not tried and I was chatting with a dating site owner about it.

He will build a Dating site section paysites can put into their sites and give to members as part of their membership. If members want to contact other people they sign up at a cut price. Maybe a small charge to send each email, costs need to be worked out. We can advertise on our sites and promotion "Free Dating Site Membership."

Don't tell me there already free dating sites. I know and AFF was not sold for $500m because there are free dating sites.

This idea is based on my knowledge of the porn buyer over my years in the business.

Magazines sold month after month, often to the same person who had a subscription, often to people who would buy the same title off a Newsstand. The same goes for DVDs, every month the same buyers bought the same series. They knew it liked it and wanted a fresh edition.

So we gear a site to be the same. Every month we change everything in the site and give members a whole new site for his money. The site would be smaller than the normal sites today, say around 40 to 60 videos and double that in sets. The price would be $10, so not an amount the buyer will think is too much to risk to see the first month or rebill for the rest of the year. Should lead to more initial sign ups and and better retention.

The content has to all be in the same niche, shot by different people, different girls and maintain a similar theme. More or less like the magazines and a lot of DVDs were. If you only have 100 videos of the same girl shot by the same person I guess this idea is not for you.

No problem with the member logging in and downloading everything and canceling, remind and show him what's coming next month with a few tasters. And keep him billing. Won't hurt the Tubes, but might help us.

So what's right and what's wrong with my ideas.

This must be the 1000000000000000000th post about tubes...when will it end?

Setup a tube yourself and stop the hate?

thread delivers

did you read the post? And it will end when tubes do as this is an adult board and tubes are now part of adult so they will get threads about them.

mags make money from 60%+ ads in them, member sections cant be 65% ads.

big difference between how magazines make money and porn sites

As you have AFF in your signature I can see why you recommend we all become whores for the dating sites. The rest of us might have better ideas.

Does the idea of sites giving away what you sell, by giving away what we sell and what made the porn business, really upset you?

We could even login to AFF, download their content, post it on our sites hosted in a non DMCA country and tell you it was uploaded by a surfer. That would be ironic. :winkwink:

Yes I know that and advertised in them. And it was far more effective than any Internet advertising.

But people never bought them for the adverts. :winkwink:

The advertisers bought space because so many people bought month after month. Yes advertising did contribute to the running, creation and publication costs. This helped keep the quality up. We have to deliver a good product with the resources we have.

And the mags didnt really make money off subs, they make money and stay afloat from ads. ;)

so your solution is to destroy the money making oppertunities that are left
once you have done that, and every surfer can get both the content and the live interaction for free, how are you going to make money.

don't tell me that they will out of business and you get back in time to the old money making days
because

1. technology is the cost of running these sites so they will simply shift to selling hard goods like media vaults
2. people will try setting up a tube site even if they fail so there will simply be an eb and flow of free content

stop wasting your time trying to hurt them and figuire out how to exploit the new traffic source.

You still don't get it. The buyers did not buy for the ads, they did not even like all the ads. The bought month after month because they got a brand new lot of fresh content that met their needs and at a price that did not make them think twice.

Yes the ads supplied the extra money to allow the mags to keep a quality the Internet has never been able to afford. And that is the reason the millions of magazines buyers bought a new edition every month. But the other costs of producing a magazine were also very high.

DVDs were also bought month after month to get the latest edition. Brand new scenes the buyer did not have. They had no advertising to cover costs.

Come up with a real problem, not ones we need to get around.

Gideon you must stop trying to look like a complete idiot. So if we achieve the almost unbelievable task of closing them down do you think men will stop looking at porn? Seriously you need to think outside your tiny box.

I don't think we will ever close Tubes. If they have to stop being funded by selling advertising space they will need to reduce their costs. By reducing the size, length, quality or number of videos a surfer can view every day. But they will be supported by sites who will host content for them. Will these guys do this ir the site they're financially supporting still selling some cheap ad spaces?

I will not reply to any more of your idiot posts in this thread, but you can keep bumping it. :thumbsup

you are either the biggest idiot in the world or you didn't read what i said.

I have already pointed out that their is java technology that will stream a torrent file.
That means the cost of streaming a video to 1 person is exactly the same as streaming it to 10,000.

for a tube site to survive using that technology they would just have to push people to watch the same thing at the same time.

See youtubes "videos being watched right now" technique

your trying to kill the tubes by killing their revenue stream for everyone
the problem is that open technology will allow them to survive the revenue lose
yet nothing exist that will allow you to do it too.

stupidest move you could ever make
what are you going to sell with dating, content and chat are all free.

You just don't get it Paul. You don't get it.

But hey, keep trying to push a dying business model and fade away.

those are ideas that could help out a bit, but we would need something much better to snatch the market from tubes.

I sure do. You're trying to say running a paysite like magazine is the way to success. I am saying you cannot really compare the two, because one is based on having advertisers keep them afloat, by having 65% or more ads from cover to back. The other is based on zero ads, and all content.

You cannot run a paysite like a magazine, because in the end the subscribers are not where magazines make profit. With a paysite, your "rebills" are everything... Im not trying to argue with you, I simply understand how magazines work and comparing them to a content-based porn site disregards how magazines actually profit. Mag subs average $12.95 - $29.95 a year, that barely even cover the cost of the books and postage ;) You think magazines put huge ABSOLUT ads on back page because their subscribers are making them money? lol

Anyway, really, you asked for input regarding your idea, I just posted about comparing paysites to mags.

I only replied because of this:

I say for go for it, then report back after your success man!

idiot posts? you're the fucking idiot. what are you, 90 years old? and still slogging the porn and bitching about the hardship of it all. god, you should be a multimillionaire by now, chilling out like me, at 36. yeah, you have all the answers lol.

what happened to the magic join links?

Paul knows all, so they are still probably generating sales at 1:100 ;)

You are just jealous that you aren't writing fake surfer emails to yourself, or banning affiliates with bad ratios to save on BW. :1orglaugh

I know and this business does not have the balls to grab the nettles. The whole business, not just Internet porn. For at least 10 years the moans have been TOO MUCH FREE PORN ON THE INTERNET.

And 10 years later the same moan is coming up.

These ideas are something and to date do you see anyone else with any ideas? And there's the problems no one has a clue what to do to get this business out of the shitter. Even the idiotas flaming have no ideas. Just calling me an idiot.

Maybe we should all open Tubes and become nothing buy whores for the dating sites. *end rant as it's pointless.*

But it needed saying.

Set up more magic join links.

This from a guy who bought a few hundred dollars worth of cheap bargain basement content, used it on his tour, told his affiliatews it was converting and refilling on his affiliate site and then claimed on the Pond members were canceling because it was saturated content. If he wanted unsaturated content he should of bought exclusive and not used cheap content on his tour.

But he was a know it all sponsor who seems to now be a know it all Tube site owner? How good were your sites and how much traffic does your tube site send to them?

Only you said I wrote the email, buy iy was saying things you had no answer to so what else can you say. I cancelled an affiliate who I did not trust. Should I of kept him and waited for him to rip me off?

You were a know all who thought he was an expert on everything on the Pond. How the mighty have fallen. :1orglaugh

Got the balls to post a link to your Tube site?

www.5dollarsporn.com always did well and still up.

Thanks for the plug.

Has anyone got any better ideas?

Because positive thinking is what will get results.

When was the last time you had a MRI?

Yeah just like I am not crying all day that I can't post to picposts and linklists as part of my core business and make awesome money, maybe you should stop crying all day that you can't make enough from shooting content and running a generic teen paysite. Times have changed big time! You simply can't do the same shit you did 10 years ago and survive!

Water doesn't flow uphill, and surfers will always more towards the type of site that they prefer to surf. No quantity of whinging, complaining, whining or crying on your part is going to change that.

The problem with all the loud industry 'veterans' like you is you have your heads so far up your arse it doesn't even occur to you that you might be able to learn something. Your ego is just too big to listen, but by all means keep ranting about it not being fair as you slowly go out of business.

Paul Markham isnt an idiot..hes a pioneer to the industry..and has seen it go up and down and what its made of.....he might not own a huge affiliate program and might not own 30 paysites...but hes here and he knows what happens first hand..dont critisize his ideas, hes trying to help...get a fucking clue you tit...the point about magazines was about the fresh content monthly..

Id like to add to the fresh content monthly idea, i think that the content should be hcanged everymonth, and the content from the previous month should be archived :D

Josh

Here is something I don't get. When you talk about the dating option, I like the idea of getting access to a dating site from within a porn site, but it seems like you take it off the rails here.

You said: "He will build a Dating site section paysites can put into their sites and give to members as part of their membership. If members want to contact other people they sign up at a cut price. Maybe a small charge to send each email, costs need to be worked out. We can advertise on our sites and promotion "Free Dating Site Membership."

So how exactly is that free? It is free to look, no doubt, but not free to actually use. I can say this much. If I joined a porn site and they promised me a free membership to a dating site when I joined then I found out I still had to pay more to actually use that dating site I would be pretty pissed off. This is just another upsell and porn customers have been seeing them for years.

I think you might have misunderstood him. He is not going to give away dating and live shows for free to everyone, only people that join his site. He is not trying to kill the tubes by cutting off their traffic or killing the technology, he is trying to come up with ideas that will give people a solid reason to join a site and pay for porn because with this membership they can get stuff they can't get on the tube sites.

Paul, I am not sure how I upset you so much that you have ICQed me to continue arguing with me etc... you are a client of mine, I was just posting friendly crap in here about mags and ads, no need to bring it off boards etc... geez man, relax. I just posted about mags being 65% ads vs a paysite member section not having any.

You shouldnt make a thread asking for input if you plan on getting this upset about a one line someone drops randomly in a thread like this.

As i said, you arent looking for input, dont ICQ me unless its about business I dont sit on ICQ and bicker about GFY threads. hit me when you want to place another order, and not until then ;)

IM NOT REALLY SURE MOST PAYSITES "DESERVE" TO SURVIVE thanks my public service annoucement:angrysoap

OK, here's something: what about you start with the "positive thinking" yourself?

I mean, I applaud your efforts to think alternatives and options. I don't like the tube model AT ALL. But... no matter what you do, tubes are here to stay. You can take turns and leaps and spend money, time and resources on a lost battle. It's your choice.

On the other hand, you can senpd time, money and resources on proactive thinking to figure out how to work on this scenario that, again, won't change. If anything, it will change for worse.

I said it before and won't explain it again, but the tube model is doomed because of its own nature. However, by the time the "doom times" get, they'll have all the power to change things the way they want. Are they going to kill the market? For sure. That's the idea. Maybe a few of the tube bandwagoners didn't realize it yet since they're just copycats, but the whole tube model success relies on killing the market as we know it by getting rid of most actors in the industry (traffic sources, paysites, etc).

The only way to "fight" them is going a completely different way. Re-create the business. Re-vamp traffic sources. Re-do paysites and their whole business model (you may have something there, but IMHO you're way off base. Again, IMHO before you go berserk.).

The first thing is traffic sources. I was chatting on ICQ with a client telling me his former partner's TGPs lost almost 40% in traffic last year... and going down. I heard/read about that from several sources and I can't even believe it. It's so easy to change everything and work a whole different way (probably with better conversions and/or income, although I'm not sure) it's not even funny.

Second: paysites. I wrote so much about that in the last couple months I'm not even go there now. I'll just say most paysites are set in autopilot mode to massive fail. Funny thing is most of them already have the tools to change it.

Third: Consumer education: This is a toughy, the only really difficult point, hence the one the industry as a whole should aim its bigger efforts. Part of it is related to the 2 points above, but there's a lot more needed. Frankly, I can see what needs to change (like many of us), but I've no idea on how to achieve it. As I said, a toughy.

Anyway, I wrote more than I thought I would, so I'll just finish saying the obvious: like it or not, ADAPT OR DIE. If you choose to die fighting a lost battle, I applaud you again and you've all my sympathy. Then again, I'd recommend you to use all your energy in creating the tools for your own success instead of the weapons for your own death. As you wish, the choice is yours.

I'm back to work for people who still wants to make money :)

ok if that is what he is saying that adding live interaction
which is what i have been saying for years.

that will work, he is effectively becoming a dating site owner

i got confused with is
scrapping peoples personal profiles would violate recreating them without their permission inside a paysite would violate peoples privacy rights.

I would imagine that a site like AFF wouldn't allow an affiliate to scrape their member's area. They might cut some kind of deal to allow access to it or to white label it, but I doubt they would allow themselves to be scraped like that.

My tubes have 2 min max clips if not less. And whats up pushing AFF? I mean they convert for me. Should I drop them and push something that doesnt give me cash?

I am just sick and tired of the tube threads...but by all mean go ahead. :thumbsup

Don't let it worry you, these flamers have no ideas, no suggestions and not5hing positive to offer. Just posting negative posts. The illegal Tube sites must be laughing all the way to the banks.

Even Fletch can't get it and still thinks the magazine and newspapers run themselves like the Internet. That business is primarily concerned with keeping their readers happy, it keeps the circulation high and the ad space sells itself. Lose the readers, you lose the advertisers. Simple logic Fletch missed.

I can see one problem for many. This idea needs a lot of content to work and it has to be good content. A lot of them would see it as a threat to their businesses.

I like the idea and when I get over the cancer I will give it a shot.

Good point and the reason for the thread. The 1 to 1 on the live cam plug is not a free, it's an upsell at a better than normal price. The free nightly show is free. We can show the adverts of the people looking for dates for free and maybe give some contacts for free. Then we charge a better rate for contacting more or maybe a better than average monthly membership to the dating site. Anyone got a better idea to work it, the dating site has to earn.

The idea is to keep members happy, if we do that they keep coming, keep rebilling and the affiliates are ecstatic and easy to cater to.

Tube surfers who did buy porn have not gone to Tube sites to not spend money. Tube sites would close if that were true. They are there to spend money on webcams, dating sites or paysites like Brazzers. Because they after 10 years paysites running they prefer getting videos from Tubes. We need to win them back. How is the problem because few have any ideas.

same old whining. while the smart have already made millions and don't really give a fuck. i can understand if you got into the biz a couple of years ago... but please lol. you've had decades to do do something, and you have done nothing. in less then one decade i (and many, many others), have made millions (each). i used to want to feel sorry for you, now i just don't care at all.

Getting into the hosting business sounds profitable :)

Not for nothing but you have to consider we are dealing with a new generation of internet surfers. The same people who made the traditional pay sites a big deal are not actually the same people who will still open their wallets. Times are changing and I agree a new model is needed. But it sounds like what you suggest is more of the same.

And it just might work, but if your positive its the way to go give it a shot. If you succeed you wont have to post threads everyone will just copy you. Its the nature of the beast we call the industry.

And I mean this with no disrespect Paul, I know you have been in the trenches for a long time. But you have to give some thought to the generational gap. It may sound lame but its going to be a tough sell to push a freshly minted 18 year old with a credit card the same smut his father paid for back when it was a novelty.

So in a nutshell i agree and disagree. As far as a solution you may hate me for it but i see the tube for pay model as being a viable alternative.

so why not just start a dating site
or cam site and simple just buy up the tube traffic instead.
no cost of content to drag you down.
if you are going to add the dating anyway, and provide a quality good enough to compete against those sold by the tube sites, wouldn't cutting the extra cost of the paysite that not really selling make you more competitive.

You m,ade millions because you got in early. If you had left it a few years you would of found it tougher.

I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me, no idea where you got that impression.

I'm trying to find ideas to turn the decline around and asll you can do is flame. Well done. :thumbsup

Adding discounted white label dating site membership to your member area, and discounts on 1-1 live cam shows is not going to stop tubes, because people visit them for PORN, not for dating and cams. They get upsold d/c memberships, sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think d/c is the tubes' main attraction for surfers.

Porn itself is the main attraction, and always will be. As long as tube sites have some fresh porn to steal, they will be OK.

Also, having monthly editions of your member area is not exactly a fresh idea - it's been tried before with various degrees of success but never really took off the ground. Mainly because for most members it is better to get one update daily then the whole new mag monthly.

Still, this idea may work for SOME, but it's not a solution for the whole industry. And surely it wont affect tubes in the least, as long as you do not actively protect your content and they can steal your monthly edition the same way they steal your current daily (or weekly, whatever) updates.

Protecting your content is the key nowadays, not live interaction or cheaper memberships etc.

So this genius idea is add live and dating.

Wow.

That IS innovation.

(if it was 2001).

what a crock of shit. you only make these threads simply because you love to hear yourself talk. you always already have your mind made up before you make any of these useless threads. you don't listen to any input. you just blab on and on about the same old shit. early? the internet, yeah. but porn? no, you are the one that was in early. anyway...

:glugglug

Paul you should listen to this guy.

Seriously, I know you only want to hear yourself talk Paul, because you obviously know everything there is to know about content, webmastering, paysites, and god knows what else, but you could stop yourself going out of business if you payed a little attention ;)

This thread confirms what I see all the time on GFY and I've been lurking for a little over a month:

People love to hate on this board. Paul was posting some ideas he had to share with anyone interested and he ends up getting torn apart. I personally don't feel the idea has that much merit as my own personal belief is that building a brand is the way to go. Advertising and pushing upsells and other crap inside a member area cheapens your brand. Having very little content inside your member area no matter how quickly it updates is a bad idea. New members will be done with that content in a couple days and cancel out their membership... they aren't going to wait around a week to see another small amount of content...

But I digress, my reason for posting was to comment on the fact that this board is full of people waiting to snap at other people's throats. Posters quickly resort to name calling and slander rather than simply offering a different or countering point of view. I'm disappointed at the lack of respect for others around here and wonder if that's how many of you act in person... if people's posts around here are indicative of their business practices I'm going to have to start a blacklist.

i want on your black list. go fuck yourself :)

No offense taken it was an insightfrul post.

Yes it's obvious that after 10 or more years of selling porn to porn buyers on the Net we got it so wrong we've been kicked in the balls by Tube sites. When I listen to all the experts who made millions I think of how good they really were to get us here.

Agreed, will give it a shot myself and see how it works. I now have the CMS to handle it, already doing live cam and know it works and the dating site guy is talking to me. He wants to see more of the industry respond to make it worth his while. You're right about members areas being wrong a lot of buyers and to beat Tubes we need a lot of sites to take up the format.

No disrespect taken. :)

I'm 59 this August and yes I think like a man in his 50s. I'll take selling to guys in my age group happily. The teen niche is big wig 40+ males. I leave the 18 year olds to sell to 18 year olds. The only thing I will say is do you see any 18-25 year olds coming up with ideas and solutions to the problems we face today?

Maybe they need more experience. :1orglaugh

Opening a Tube site is always a fall back position. Get rid of the affiliates as running a Tube and an affiliate program is a conflict of interest. Buy traffic to feed the site with and turn it into a tube site, selling to dating sites, paysites and webcams. Problem is it would screw the affiliates and content store customers and being a 58 year old I still have some honor.

Thankfully the stores and paysites are still doing well enough to make the above unlikely. After a year of Eva or I being unable to work we are still doing business and will continue to. When you listen to all the flamers you have to think "If he's so clueless how did they survive this last year?" Even though so many wished I would go, we're still here. And so many others are not. :1orglaugh

As for the future, I have at least 6 more weeks of treatment, which will be mid to end of September. Then I if I get the all clear will take a long holiday, Thailand is favorite, so back working November. Will resume shooting for the magazines as that's worth over $6,000 a year. Then the Net.

The ideas in this thread could be up and running by then if not it will get put up. Also got a few other ideas I have for sites. Might even finish off the $5 sites and might turn the contenty stores into a place the public can buy porn for personal use. Aleaysd thinking of ways to move ahead. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

But have you seen the brilliant ideas these guys are coming up with? Pure genius when the industry needs such deep thinkers. LOL

They are people with nothing to say who talk too much. And if the mods are happy to watch them effect the board that's their decision.

I take on what you said and they are good comments. As with Paul Markham Teens the members area will be open to view and it needs to be made very clear that this content goes ate the end of the month to be replaced by another selection, will show the content that's coming in a seperate area.

As for charge backs or cancellations when they have seen the content. I feel the target has to be around 60 sets a month and can maintain over that for 12 months with our archives. !2 months would be it and we would start going round again. Those who joined month 6 would still have 6 months of viewing to go. If they like what they had. CB and cancellations are not a problem on the $5 sites so don't see them as a problem here if the customer knows what he's getting. The crux is always whether they like the content.

There will always the guys who think they should get everything for $10 and ask why the previous months content is not in an archive. I will direct them to the PMT site for $30

Upsells and Advertising might cheapen the members area, has to be to bear the cost of the free live shows aand the dating site content, it will be more than letters.

As you say I'm trying to come up with new ideas because something has to change in this industry if we are to survive. Listening to advice from someone who started over years ago when it was very different and a lot easier, then got out before the trouble of today emerged. Is not the way forward. To suggest it shows how desperate and starved of ideas some are. They are the people who shaped this industry, product we sell today and being rejected by todays buyers.

all about tube...

Hey Paul, have you got any place that we can download your vids to put on our tubes sites? tnx

PS: The key to making money with pay sites is having 3 pre-checked cross sales, doesn't everyone already know that?