Originally Posted by DamageX (Post 15244992)

Considering the fact that the company is heavily indebted and the only way to pay off its debts is to go public, combined with the current state of the economy and low liquidity in all markets, I'd say RIP FriendFinder.

Originally Posted by brand0n (Post 15245076)

who is going to sue them?

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15245117)

I hate to say this, but they must be a very poorly managed company. Where are they bleeding all that money from? Where's the overhead???

Originally Posted by DamageX (Post 15244992)

Considering the fact that the company is heavily indebted and the only way to pay off its debts is to go public, combined with the current state of the economy and low liquidity in all markets, I'd say RIP FriendFinder.

Originally Posted by brand0n (Post 15245076)

who is going to sue them?

Originally Posted by buyandsell (Post 15245198)

hang on isn't it penthouse thats in debt because it bought AFF?
and actualy AFF is the part that makes money

Originally Posted by teomaxxx (Post 15245066)

how they got in a big debt? I always thought they were very profitable company. They were bought by Leveraged buyout?
anyway, I wouldnt buy a single share, since the future of dating is in the free sites, not in paysites...

Originally Posted by FreeHugeMovies (Post 15245203)

You don't think the heavy weights in this industry is going to allow this illegal tube sites to keep up what they are doing do you? I think the content producers are going to give power of attorney and then they will be suing. I think Redtube right now is being sued for 4 Mill.

The industry is losing way too much $ for these tubes to continue. A lot of program owners are idiots and got lucky, but the majority of them at least will listen up when their profits begin to shrink.

You can also go after the sponsors who buy advertising on these illegal tubes.

Originally Posted by WiredGuy (Post 15245333)

Who is suing redtube? Got a link?
WG

Originally Posted by applebee (Post 15245112)

Yeah surprising to learn they *lost* money the past couple years. Thought it was a cash machine.

Originally Posted by DamageX (Post 15244992)

Considering the fact that the company is heavily indebted and the only way to pay off its debts is to go public, combined with the current state of the economy and low liquidity in all markets, I'd say RIP FriendFinder.

Originally Posted by woj (Post 15245348)

Yea, the future doesn't look too bright for them, if anything shorting it is the way to go...

Some big adult companies could make some serious bank by partnering up, shorting ton of their stock, and then filing a lawsuit... price will then dip, shorted stocks would then be re-bought for a nice profit... or would that be illegal, considered "insider trading"?

Originally Posted by FreeHugeMovies (Post 15245203)

You don't think the heavy weights in this industry is going to allow this illegal tube sites to keep up what they are doing do you? I think the content producers are going to give power of attorney and then they will be suing. I think Redtube right now is being sued for 4 Mill.

The industry is losing way too much $ for these tubes to continue. A lot of program owners are idiots and got lucky, but the majority of them at least will listen up when their profits begin to shrink.

You can also go after the sponsors who buy advertising on these illegal tubes.

Originally Posted by koreancowboy (Post 15245330)

How exactly will we make money with free sites? Explain please.

Originally Posted by woj (Post 15245348)

Yea, the future doesn't look too bright for them, if anything shorting it is the way to go...

Some big adult companies could make some serious bank by partnering up, shorting ton of their stock, and then filing a lawsuit... price will then dip, shorted stocks would then be re-bought for a nice profit... or would that be illegal, considered "insider trading"?

Originally Posted by teomaxxx (Post 15245396)

like plentyoffish, just by running adsense - which is paid by profitable dating sites, but at the end profitable dating sites will suffer by free dating sites, so the payouts will be smaller and smaller....
lower margins is inevitable part of every industry, which is maturing. So far we arent at that point, but I think sometimes in the future we will be there...

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15245346)

They had a plan. Build up an amazing presence on the internet and create a huge database of customers and then sell it to a big company for a lot of money. Brilliant actually.

But now the reality sets in for the new "owners". All of those monster sized pre-paid ad spots on big traffic sites costs a lot of money. ROI was bad enough on legit sites the last 4-5 years, but now for the last 2 years they've been dishing it out to torrent sites and tube sites full of stolen content and full members areas.

That traffic is massive. But when you bottom line it to the logical conclusion...it never converts into an actual sale. Just a lot of numbers.

So they keep shelling out a huge monthly advertising budget for nothing. Especially since every human being on the face of the Earth already has a free profile on adultfriendfinder

It has been a tremedously profitable business model, but like a lot of things it has run it's course. Time for AFF to adapt. Shouldn't be hard, they are the biggest damn thing in the internet so the potential is there. But on the other hand they are such a big ship, it may be hard to turn her.

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 15245894)

You write too much and don't read enough.

It has been explained a couple of times already.

The debt doesn't come from a bad business model, or AFF being unprofitable, but from the purchase itself.

The debt has been dumped on AFF's books and now cash needs to be raised to pay the previous owners. AFF is having to pay for AFF.

Originally Posted by LiveDose (Post 15246052)

How many people in this thread could take over a company like Penthouse. Let's wait and see. If things were so obvious and easy we would all be fucking billionaires... Jesus.

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 15245894)

The debt doesn't come from a bad business model, or AFF being unprofitable, but from the purchase itself.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15245980)

Thanks for explaining to me how it all works pimp. :) And you're right. I don't put a lot into the wild theorizing that goes on from faceless people on GFY who write about stuff they are unfamiliar with but do so with a very authoritative tone.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15245980)

.....wild theorizing that goes on from faceless people on GFY who write about stuff they are unfamiliar with but do so with a very authoritative tone.

What I was trying to communicate was that the business model itself is losing money on a HUGE scale on a monthly basis.

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 15247504)

Sorry, I missed your last sentence.... had to laugh. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

So you aren't into wild theorizing? but you know the business model itself is losing money on a HUGE scale?

Did you read the S-1? Do you know what Notes are?

I'll dumb down LBOs just for you. Manchester United had zero debt. Malcolm Glazer takes over, Manchester United now owes 1.3 billion dollars. The most profitable club in the world is now barely making a penny because it has to service this debt.

Penthouse Media Group lost money last year, we know that much, who the fuck knows if Various would have if they didn't inherit the debt incurred in the buyout.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15247730)

Yes numbnuts. I'm actually IN this business and not some guy trying to post about stuff they aren't involved in. I know that AFF pays out prepaid spots. I also know how much those spots are. I also know the value of traffic and which traffic converts. So please STFU and go back to whatever the fuck you do. :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 15247876)

If your usual "your just a surfer" or the next step "I'll fight you at a convention" you've been using for the past years is all you got don't bother replying.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15247917)

And another thing surfer...I'm gonna beat the shit out of you at internext




:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 15247928)

I hope you've been training :thumbsup

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15247963)

From the NYT paper.

"[AFF] posted a net loss of $29.9 million on $48 million in revenue in 2007. For the first nine months of 2008, FriendFinder had operating income of $17.6 million and a net loss of $32.3 million on $244 million in revenue."

So my thinking is their debt is not just from the initial purchase. When a company losing money goes for an IPO, it better have huge upside potential. I'd say AFFs best days are well behind them. If they haven't made money yet, I doubt they ever will.

But like was said earlier, I'm an armchair billionaire.

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15247963)

From the NYT paper.

"[AFF] posted a net loss of $29.9 million on $48 million in revenue in 2007. For the first nine months of 2008, FriendFinder had operating income of $17.6 million and a net loss of $32.3 million on $244 million in revenue."

So my thinking is their debt is not just from the initial purchase. When a company losing money goes for an IPO, it better have huge upside potential. I'd say AFFs best days are well behind them. If they haven't made money yet, I doubt they ever will.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 15247963)

"I read this in one of the comments:

""""" Just read the S-1. The most important point is that the acquisition was funded primarily by Notes which is why there is so much debt now. So now the company is trying to go public to raise equity cash to pay off the previous owners Various Inc.

Also there is a $60M+ issue where the previous owners did not collect/pay VAT in European countries so that?s part of why the purchase price looks only in the $400M?s even though it was originally announced at $500M. """"""




Which makes a lot of sense. It sounded like Penthouse wanted to go IPO but they were a sinking ship with shitty sales figures. They lured (greed) Various to the table and promised them riches beyond their wildest dreams if they would sell out to Penthouse so penthouse would then look good enough on paper to go IPO.

At some point penthouse couldn't pull off the IPO so Various bought Penthouse (shuffling paper) and now Various is the one trying to do the IPO.

I'll have to dig up an old post I made over year ago, if the IPO didn't happen I bet Lars and Andrew get fucked. Penthouse has had a terrible history and has no future. They got suckered in on greed, were paid note and sold on future riches of an IPO. If the IPO doesn't happen they will likely be a lot worse off than they would have been if they didn't do the deal with Penthouse.

Its funny, Various was looking for someone to sell to, knowing AFF was at its peak they wanted to unload. Along comes Penthouse, sinking ship, they both try to use each other to make a ton of money. Would love to see this cluster fuck blow up. Almost there."

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15247963)

From the NYT paper.

"[AFF] posted a net loss of $29.9 million on $48 million in revenue in 2007. For the first nine months of 2008, FriendFinder had operating income of $17.6 million and a net loss of $32.3 million on $244 million in revenue."

So my thinking is their debt is not just from the initial purchase. When a company losing money goes for an IPO, it better have huge upside potential. I'd say AFFs best days are well behind them. If they haven't made money yet, I doubt they ever will.

But like was said earlier, I'm an armchair billionaire. The real billionaires seem to be able to make money out of thin air....at least until the taxpayers bail them out :)

Originally Posted by sacX (Post 15248108)

Interpretation. AFF as a business made 17.6 million. Once you include interest expense which was about 58 million, it lost 32.3 million.

So what's sinking the numbers is the interest on the debt. The owners of the debt could foreclose on the current owner, but in all likelihood they'd keep the underlying business runningwhich made 17.6 million last year, they wouldn't just shut up shop because that'd be killing the asset on which they have a lien.

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15248251)

I bet some of these sites make 50% of their revenue from AFF and if it tanks, not too many people are going to be in line to pick up that slack.

Originally Posted by mynameisjim (Post 15248251)

Do you mean the debt from the acquisition that got dumped on them? I just ask because they lost money in 2007 as well. I'm not sure when the deal with them and PH went down.

Sounds like they made the same type of deal that Sam Zell made when he bought the Tribune. Took on a huge load of debt in hopes to be able to pay it off but the marketplace has changed so much all the creditors are looking for their penalty balloon payments.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/173152

BTW, I'm not arguing, just trying to think out loud and figure this thing out as I think it has some ramifications for the long term health of illegal tube sites. I bet some of these sites make 50% of their revenue from AFF and if it tanks, not too many people are going to be in line to pick up that slack.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 15247966)

Yeah...I'll get right on that big man. In case you didn't notice I was laughing at what you said. It's not true. The only time I have ever said that was to people who ARE surfers. Unless you suddenly now want to take up for pussyserver :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

And trust me my friend. I don't need to "train" Nobodies gonna do shit anyway. You're the one who brought that up. I merely made a joke out of it. But just to be sure I'll keep my eye out for someone named "Slappin Fish"

Weird name. But you can always look for "Robbie" if you feel you'd like to test your "skills" :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh I'm easy to find and don't hide behind nicknames. :)