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#1

Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money

11-19-2008, 03:08 PM

Nice...

"There is a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hand, saying that they're going to be trimming down and streamlining their businesses," Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-New York, told the chief executive officers of Ford, Chrysler and General Motors at a hearing of the House Financial Services Committee.

"It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo. It kind of makes you a little bit suspicious."

He added, "couldn't you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here? It would have at least sent a message that you do get it."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/aut...ets/index.html
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11-19-2008, 03:09 PM

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#3

11-19-2008, 03:15 PM

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.
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#4

11-19-2008, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

NO, these are private companies asking for taxpayer's money. It's not our fault their businesses are FAILING. Suck it up.
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#5

11-19-2008, 03:38 PM

Haha, that's fucking hilarious.

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#6

11-19-2008, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

I don't care who they are. If their companies are about to go out of business, they should not be flying in private jets.

And it is a handout. These are failing businesses with no future. They have bad labor deals and no innovation. All loaning these losers does is delay the inevitable.
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#7

11-19-2008, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

If they are fortune 10 companies they can bail themselves out with the profits they gained over the years.
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#8

11-19-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

Yes. Yes they are supposed to fly coach. Because that's what you do when you can't afford first class or a private jet, both of which would seem to be out of the budget for a company claiming to be bleeding money and asking for tax payer assistance. I myself have flown coach and lived to tell the tale, so I'm sure these guys can manage as well.

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#9

11-19-2008, 03:57 PM

not true Ayla, they wouldn't make it
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#10

11-19-2008, 04:02 PM

These are corp jets that are already paid for. Its not like companies like GM pay for jet rentals.
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#11

11-19-2008, 04:02 PM

The CEO's really have nothing to do with the loans I don't think.

If congress agrees to give them money, the CEO's will be taking a big pay cut, or hopefully, be replaced.
This whole mess is about the 3 million or so jobs that hang in the balance. The CEO's are a red herring IMO.

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#12

11-19-2008, 04:07 PM

The same amount of jobs are going to be lost if we bail them out or not. If they fail they will be bought by companies that know how to run a business and most of the employees will still have jobs. There will be short term job loss in either case.

But one case doesnt have the taxpayers on the hook for 25 billion if they end up failing. And since they are already saying they are failing then my guess is they cant get themselves out of this hole and someone new needs to step in and buy the company.
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#13

11-19-2008, 04:11 PM

lmfaoooooooooo
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#14

11-19-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Snake Doctor

The CEO's really have nothing to do with the loans I don't think.

If congress agrees to give them money, the CEO's will be taking a big pay cut, or hopefully, be replaced.
This whole mess is about the 3 million or so jobs that hang in the balance. The CEO's are a red herring IMO.

The 3 million job total is just nonsense. It came from a report by a group paid by the auto industry. They overstated the jobs in the auto sector and didn't factor in that many of those jobs would be recovered by the other companies who gain marketshare. CNBC did a nice piece on it that showed how it's basically bullshit.

Nonetheless, it's not our responsibility to save jobs of private companies that were run poorly. There are still good car comapnies out there that employ Americans. They are just not run out of this country.
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#15

11-19-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by pocketkangaroo

The 3 million job total is just nonsense. It came from a report by a group paid by the auto industry. They overstated the jobs in the auto sector and didn't factor in that many of those jobs would be recovered by the other companies who gain marketshare. CNBC did a nice piece on it that showed how it's basically bullshit.

Nonetheless, it's not our responsibility to save jobs of private companies that were run poorly. There are still good car comapnies out there that employ Americans. They are just not run out of this country.

And those companies that were run properly will be more than willing to expand and hire those who lost their jobs
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#16

11-19-2008, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by pocketkangaroo

The 3 million job total is just nonsense. It came from a report by a group paid by the auto industry. They overstated the jobs in the auto sector and didn't factor in that many of those jobs would be recovered by the other companies who gain marketshare. CNBC did a nice piece on it that showed how it's basically bullshit.

Nonetheless, it's not our responsibility to save jobs of private companies that were run poorly. There are still good car comapnies out there that employ Americans. They are just not run out of this country.

I think the whole bailout thing is a mess. There are no good options, only bad options and worse options.

I don't see a problem with loaning $25B less to the banking sector....who are just hoarding the cash or using it to buy up other banks instead of lending it...and loaning it to the auto industry.....provided alot of strings are attached.

Also, this is politics. Nothing may get done in the lame duck session, but it will get done once Obama is sworn in.
He can't win reelection without Michigan and Ohio, and those are the communities that will be hurt the most if GM and/or Ford go under.

CNBC might be right that it won't be a net job loss for the country overall....but it's still going to kill Michigan and Ohio.
So realistically we know something is going to get done, let's just hope they attach alot of strings instead of giving out a blank check the way Mr Free Market Henry Paulson did when he gave the banks 250B and AIG 125B of our dollars.

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#17

11-19-2008, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

Fuck what they are, if you're going to ask for TAXPAYER MONEY, then fucking travel economically and live just lever everyone else has too and save where you can. Have you any idea the cost for a private jet return?
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#18

11-19-2008, 05:26 PM

You really DONT want to know what it costs for some of those jets.. As I recall some cost about 4 to 10 K an hour to run and more. Fuel, Pilot, co pilot, stew, maintenance, etc..

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#19

11-19-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Snake Doctor

The CEO's really have nothing to do with the loans I don't think.

If congress agrees to give them money, the CEO's will be taking a big pay cut, or hopefully, be replaced.
This whole mess is about the 3 million or so jobs that hang in the balance. The CEO's are a red herring IMO.

They said they would take a dollar a year salary til it is paid back. Its a loan not a bail out and they go under we will be going under with them.This country goes into a depression we are fucked.

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#20

11-19-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by pocketkangaroo

I don't care who they are. If their companies are about to go out of business, they should not be flying in private jets.

And it is a handout. These are failing businesses with no future. They have bad labor deals and no innovation. All loaning these losers does is delay the inevitable.

Agreed and in your opinion who is the best auto maker in the world?

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#21

11-19-2008, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by pocketkangaroo

The 3 million job total is just nonsense. It came from a report by a group paid by the auto industry. They overstated the jobs in the auto sector and didn't factor in that many of those jobs would be recovered by the other companies who gain marketshare. CNBC did a nice piece on it that showed how it's basically bullshit.

Nonetheless, it's not our responsibility to save jobs of private companies that were run poorly. There are still good car comapnies out there that employ Americans. They are just not run out of this country.

if its true and we go into a depression then what? Its just not these companies there will be real ripple affect.
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#22

11-19-2008, 05:37 PM

I think we should loan it to them under strict guidelines. There should be reports back to us about how they are spending the money and what they are doing with it and there should be information on what kind of re-tooling and restructuring they are doing. They need to rethink their business from the top down and those strings should come attached with the money.

In the end this industry is one of the backbones of our country, we really need it to survive and as someone pointed out earlier, Obama needs Michigan and Ohio to win elections the people there will not look to kindly on him turns his back on their industry.
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#23

11-19-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by kane

I think we should loan it to them under strict guidelines. There should be reports back to us about how they are spending the money and what they are doing with it and there should be information on what kind of re-tooling and restructuring they are doing. They need to rethink their business from the top down and those strings should come attached with the money.

In the end this industry is one of the backbones of our country, we really need it to survive and as someone pointed out earlier, Obama needs Michigan and Ohio to win elections the people there will not look to kindly on him turns his back on their industry.

Just like the strict guide lines for the banks.. as long as your Bank request papers must be IN by december 1st to get bail out money. THEY ARE NOT EVEN FUCKING BANKS YET THAT HAVE LOST!!!

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#24

11-19-2008, 08:40 PM

They have the fucking cheek to fucking fly private fucking jets to beg for fucking handouts from the fucking taxpayers that they've been fucking ripping off by selling their fucking products at fucking high prices.

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#25

11-19-2008, 08:42 PM

people running businesses should be running them as if their own financial life depends on it... if the owner or ceo of a business runs them into bankruptcy, they themselves should be out of a job and penniless once the smoke clears too..... there is too much scamming going on and no personal accountability to any of it

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#26

11-19-2008, 08:57 PM

Arrogant bastards, they have no clue.

They knew the gas crunch was coming 30 years ago, yet they did little to make fuel efficient cars.

Let the automakers go bankrupt, and use the freed up resources on new technology.

The unions? They can go fuck themselves!

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#27

11-19-2008, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by tony404

They said they would take a dollar a year salary til it is paid back. Its a loan not a bail out and they go under we will be going under with them.This country goes into a depression we are fucked..

That's a big assumption to make...that if they go bankrupt the entire economy goes down with them. That's not necessarily true.
Ohio and Michigan are fucked that's for sure.

The main thing I want to know, that they weren't able to answer in the hearings, is how is this $25B going to help them in the short and long term.
If it's only going to buy them another year and just delay the inevitable then it's a total waste of taxpayer money.

If they can show us a plan where the $25B will help them restructure and put them back on the road to profitability so they can repay the money, then it might be a good deal.

Either way, my guess is they'll get it, if not now then after Obama is sworn in. Michigan and Ohio are too important electoral college-wise to let that many people there lose their jobs. (Yet another reason I hate the electoral college)

BTW...I never saw anything about $1 per year in salary until it was paid back. If you have a link I'd like to see that.

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#28

11-19-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by tony404

They said they would take a dollar a year salary til it is paid back. Its a loan not a bail out and they go under we will be going under with them.This country goes into a depression we are fucked.

These guys don't make money on salary. They make it on their stock options.
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#29

11-19-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by pocketkangaroo

These guys don't make money on salary. They make it on their stock options.

Well those won't be worth shit either if they can't turn the company around. Stock options are only worth something if the stock price increases.

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#30

11-19-2008, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by tony404

if its true and we go into a depression then what? Its just not these companies there will be real ripple affect.

Then we go into a depression. We can't bailout every big company in the world that might cause some economic problems. We can't keep bad businesses with bad management around.

And this ripple effect is blown out of proportion. It's just a scare tactic to make us give them money. We got the same crap from Paulson a month ago and it turned out to be a bluff. If Ford goes under, people will buy other cars from other companies (better companies). Those companies will get bigger, hire people, and buy more supplies. We need to stop this nonsense that the world revolves around those 3 car companies.
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#31

11-19-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Snake Doctor

Well those won't be worth shit either if they can't turn the company around. Stock options are only worth something if the stock price increases.

I'm just pointing out that these guys aren't some noble men for saying they'll take $1 salary.

The whole thing still boggles my mind. We have real issues in this country. We have people who can't get basic health care. People who can't afford prescriptions to help them. Students unable to get a college loan. But we're going to give this cash to bad businesses who have CEO's who made hundreds of millions of dollars over the years. It's like a twilight zone.
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#32

11-19-2008, 10:09 PM

its amazing they cant make the sacrifice to downgrade to first class if their companies are in that much trouble.
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#33

11-20-2008, 12:01 AM

You let the big 3 go under and millions of people loose their jobs. You think the ecconomy is the shit now? Our times now will look like the golden year if that happens. Their is too much at stake no different then fannie and freddie. They need to bail them out. Yea i agree it sucks balls but you better look long term not what you feel is right or wrong.

They go backrupt no only do people loose their jobs now but what about peoples retirement? What about the people who are already retired drawing the money they deserve and that worked their whole lives for.
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#34

11-20-2008, 01:20 AM

The Big 3 are going down barring a miracle ... they already got a $25 billion auto industry bailout the other month.

And now they need another 25 billion ...

Even if they got $100 billion and retooled, etc who is going to buy the vehicles? -people have little savings, credit is tightening, and the job market is getting worse.

The government loans, from my understanding, come with relatively high interest rates ... so it's doubtful the Big 3 could even make the interest payments let alone ever pay down the principle...

And hence the term "bailout" because it's likely they'll never pay most of the money back, and probably go broke anyways.

And for those who think the Big 3 execs flying in corporate jets is excessive, you ain't seen anything yet - if their industry gets another bailout, a bundle of that money one way or another will find its way to the top execs.

Ron

Last edited by Ron Bennett; 11-20-2008, 01:22 AM.

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#35

11-20-2008, 02:03 AM

They should have learned in the 80's that greed is not good

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#36

11-20-2008, 02:55 AM

The solution I think is easy, but as always political positions get in the way.

1.- Congress creates an expert group to evaluate how feasible is that the companies will effectively survive after they receive the money. Because it may very well happen that even with the bailouot money in their pockets, these 3 will still go bankrupt after 6-9 months.

2.- Another group needs to be created. One specialized in macro-economy. This group would run a cost-benefit analyisis. Bailout money vs. money that the governmnet would lose in income revenue from those left without a job, either directly or indirectly. Plus the money that the government may have to incur in social benefits for those people.

3.- If the bailout is approved. Create a set of rules and prohibitions to prevent executives from abusing the system and to make sure that the restructuring plan effectively takes place.

4.- Do not give the money as a blank check. Give it according to a timetable linked to the restructuring plan. It does not matter if that takes even more money to make it this way. At the end it should be a win-win solution.

5.- Finally loan the money not a with a discounted interest rate, but with "premium" rate. The tax payers should be receiving a benefit for allowing their money be put into this mess, not a punishment.

Now you can elect me for president

Last edited by Praguer; 11-20-2008, 02:57 AM. Reason: typo

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#37

11-20-2008, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by kane

I think we should loan it to them under strict guidelines. There should be reports back to us about how they are spending the money and what they are doing with it and there should be information on what kind of re-tooling and restructuring they are doing. They need to rethink their business from the top down and those strings should come attached with the money.

In the end this industry is one of the backbones of our country, we really need it to survive and as someone pointed out earlier, Obama needs Michigan and Ohio to win elections the people there will not look to kindly on him turns his back on their industry.

1) the industry doesn't want to be regulated. And the government shouldn't regulate them, as they nor us have any clue how to make a car.

2) obama, already won the election. Four years from now is to far out for him to be considering how to be re-elected.

3) This capitalism, let them fail, and let them re-build themselves. Jobs will be lost no matter, what happens.

4) if Michigan,, wants to save jobs, let them provide the bridge loan, not the rest of the country, who won't see a benefit from all the jobs saved.

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#38

11-20-2008, 03:37 AM

Let the cards fall as they may.

YES people will lose jobs and a few states will be FUCKED. We may even end up in a depression over it. Sooner or later we will pull ourselves back up after falling flat on our face and come out stronger because of it.

No doubt about it, it's gonna hurt. So let them fall, let them ALL fall and everyone take their medicine and regroup. Maybe next time around the powers that be will get it right.

On the other hand, this could just be the beginning, as some experts say, to the beginning of the end of the American empire. Regardless of what you think, a 25b loan or handout will not stop the inevitable, which is the bankruptcy of these companies.
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#39

11-20-2008, 03:58 AM

this is hilarious really. i say tighten the buckle guys it will be hard for them for a long time. guess they have enough money to bleed a little

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#40

11-20-2008, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by tony404

these are executives of fortune 10 companies.Are they supposed to fly coach? They are asking for a loan not a handout. The credit market has froze and this is why they need these loans. Its very simple.

No... Business class. Many airlines have a special VIP line, waiting area and service that actors and foreign dignitaries enjoy.
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#41

11-20-2008, 05:06 AM

actually, a lot of fortune 500 companies do not allow their ceo's to fly commercial air due to security risks. some also do not allow two C title executives to fly on the same plane.

its continuation of business.

both micheal dell and bill gates use top fly commercial until their boards finally convinced them both to start flying private because of security risks..

with that said.. fuck the automakers.. they should just be allowed to fail because that 25 billion they are asking for will only help them until next year and then they will need more..

imo, take the 25 billion and create green jobs so we can get off foreign oil...
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#42

11-20-2008, 05:09 AM

And another thing...

If you open a company.. Use a successful business model or stop doing what you are doing... Had they NOT resisted electric vehicles we could have been the leaders with the battery technology... Now everyone else is kicking are asses on that front too...

If government wants to do ANYTHING... Stop making the US the shining fucking example of the global economy when no one else is playing to this extent... Start walling up the borders and start using tariffs to force Americans to buy American so we can all have a job.

This whole global economy thing is actually a lot of bullshit. It is for rich people to get richer by doing what they already know will work. Unfortunately it is costing America jobs and sovereignty.

Poor and middle class Americans have no clue and half of the "rich" people on this board still think like the poor people they were 10 years ago.
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#43

11-20-2008, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by V_RocKs

No... Business class. Many airlines have a special VIP line, waiting area and service that actors and foreign dignitaries enjoy.

when executive, management and sales teams are flying at a lot, at a certain point, it becomes cheaper than commercial flight.
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#44

11-20-2008, 05:39 AM

They all should have driven to the meeting in the very fuel efficient reliable american cars
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#45

11-20-2008, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by d-null

people running businesses should be running them as if their own financial life depends on it... if the owner or ceo of a business runs them into bankruptcy, they themselves should be out of a job and penniless once the smoke clears too..... there is too much scamming going on and no personal accountability to any of it

these guys don't just wake up one day and decide to pay themselves retarded amounts of money. the board/shareholders do.
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#46

11-20-2008, 06:47 AM

Forget flying, they should be forced to drive everywhere in the pieces of shit cars their companies produce.
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Fletch XXX

GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!

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#47

11-20-2008, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by V_RocKs

And another thing...

If you open a company.. Use a successful business model or stop doing what you are doing... Had they NOT resisted electric vehicles we could have been the leaders with the battery technology... Now everyone else is kicking are asses on that front too...

http://www.congratstothewinners.com/...ctric-car.html

The interviews with scientists regarding batteries is the give a way... these people have resisted the best technology on the world to produce electric vehicles, now need a handout.

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D Ghost

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#48

11-20-2008, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Verbal

Forget flying, they should be forced to drive everywhere in the pieces of shit cars their companies produce.

roflmfao
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BlackCrayon

Too lazy to set a custom title

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#49

11-20-2008, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Let the cards fall as they may.

YES people will lose jobs and a few states will be FUCKED. We may even end up in a depression over it. Sooner or later we will pull ourselves back up after falling flat on our face and come out stronger because of it.

No doubt about it, it's gonna hurt. So let them fall, let them ALL fall and everyone take their medicine and regroup. Maybe next time around the powers that be will get it right.

On the other hand, this could just be the beginning, as some experts say, to the beginning of the end of the American empire. Regardless of what you think, a 25b loan or handout will not stop the inevitable, which is the bankruptcy of these companies.

tell that to the millions who will starve to death if we do end up in another depression.

you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..
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D Ghost

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#50

11-20-2008, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by BlackCrayon

tell that to the millions who will starve to death if we do end up in another depression.

The Bailouts are like a drug addict getting a quick fix so he doesn't go overboard, but only temporarily. This "quick fix" isn't going to deal with the long term problem. which is the drug addict himself and his ways.

everytime they print money and inject it like this, it lessens the value of everyone's dollar
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