for those that dont want to help the car companies
 

the cost if they dont it, will make the bailout loan look like chump change.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...0Wg&refer=home

too bad... i would rather pay 200 billion now and show these companies that they need to take care of themselves than pay the 200 billion later when they fold next year..

the US car companies are fucked and they are getting what they deserve for decades of backwards thinking and sharing cock with big oil..\

the japs did it right and they are going to fare better in this economy and they deserve to..

this country is fast tracking to a depression and anyone that thinks it can be avoided needs to look closely at all the money the fed is loaning out beyond the 700 bill bailout..

the world economy needs to purge itself and all the world govts are doing is controlling the crash, but the crash is coming... :2 cents:

Even with those costs, I still say fuck em.

Yes people will pass the bailout but they should let it fall. Plus the unions must be killed, which also reminds me. When the airlines come up next fuck them and their unions too.

no shit.. the airlines are next to come knocking with their hands out... then followed by the retail stores..

where is it going to end? :Oh crap

I am watching retail fall already. Just look at some west coast stores. Mervyns is blowing out all merchandise and will close shop by Christmas. Linens and things going poof, so forth. No handouts for them.

What pisses me off right now is I learned that some banks are being offered millions not because of bad debts but just because the government is offering it. One local bank got 17 million, they just have to start paying it back in a few years and oh ya- give the government 5% of the profit they make per year off of it. I am just thankful that the bank I use and invest in turned them down and said no thanks we do not need the money.

Well in Capitalism to work and hold true bailing out a giant is the worse thing to do.
THe system will reinvent itself and more efficient car makers will come on the scene.

Fuck GM fuck all the companies that ran themselves into the ground. THese companies need to fall, as it proves without a doubt they are no longer capable of evolving. Giving them money only prolongs the inevitable. If these car companies were smart they would not have been selling SUV's to people knowing that the price of gas was going to rise and was rising.

If they were able to make fuel efficient cars before the rise of gasoline why did they continue pushing gas guzzlers? Thats a simple issue with the car companies, the reasons why GM has failed are numerous huge mistakes that can easily been avoided. Fuck GM.

These fucking car making exec's pay them selves millions of millions of dolalrs yearly, they give themselves over the top vacations, they pay thier workers penny's just to keep them employed.

GM is a dinosaur it needs to go down so that the penny makers can make a better car.
Because if GM made a better car and were more sound in thier company business this would have never happened.

Everyone knows Ford and GM pushed gas guzzlers when gas was going for 4 bucks a gallon, they didnt give a shit, GM and FOrd didnt give a shit when gas was 3 dolalrs a gallon, they kept pushing gas guzzlers on Americans. Now the time has come to pay the piper.

But you know the GOvernment will pay them fuckers and they are going to fall out anyways. Cutting the life support is the best thing so that life can go on and evolve the way it should.

guys you keep forgetting 3 million people out of work can put us into a depression and kiss your sales goodbye.

Let the free market work!

Google "creative destruction."

The free market always comes up with a better replacement.

The bailout won't help because there has to be fundamental changes in the way the auto industry is run. The UAW basically added enough cost per car that these American car companies can't compete with foreign car companies. Add to the fact that the American Car companies are putting out crap compared to their Japanese counterparts.

I wouldn't mind the bailout so much if it actually fixed the problem...if its throwing money at the problem, then it's just wrong.

Not everything is about money...

Greed! It's what got us where we are today. If we don't stop this shit now and face some hard times, it is for sure going to stop us and when it does it will be far worse. :2 cents:

they sold the gas guzzlers because that's what people wanted

then when gas prices rose and stayed high people would rather buy a car, so more focus on cars

now the problem is no ones buying cars at all

Here's a fucking plan... Don't give GM shit... They don't need to produce more fucking cars right now...

FREEZE their debts and let them sell what cars they have and come up with the money themselves..

WTF.. have a fucking sale on Hummers for christ sake, lol... Shit, they could even sell Hummer to some other company.. I'm sure there's tons of ways they could bail themselves out...

Unions are not the problem.The man would make you work for 10 bucks a hour without them with zero benefits.you can't blame the working man.
It's the working man that helps make it go around.it effects everybody one way or another.a trickle down effect

On another note, both my vehicles are GM.. hope I won't need any new parts if they fall :1orglaugh

The amount of economic insight in this thread boggles the mind, LOL ...

But sadly it is a sign of our times... No one claims responsibilty for themselves anymore and would rather ask for a hand out instead of trying to make sacrifices.

General Motors CEO Richard Wagoner:
"In 2007, Wagoner took home $14,415,914, a 41% raise over 2006."

That is just one guy, $14.5 million in one year... Yeah, they really need a bail out. But of course once again when they fail the fat cats will run off with the money and the poor workers will be left in the lurch.

Thank you. No one talks about the 5 layers of management or that japanese car companies have government paid healthcare that covers their workers.Also the less wages people make the less they spend and at the end of the day that's what makes the economy tick.

What is your opinion on welfare?

someone will always fill such a gap. Just may be a little harder at first.

We have several fords. I know they are in the same boat money wise. Am not one of those that think the big 3 only made crap products or stuff people did not want because that is just not true.

Hell I know Saturn's are pretty well made, popular, small, and economical- just also happen to be a subsidiary of GM if I recall. Hell they even sell very well around here. I just do not think Saturn is bogged down by pensions, inflated wages, and such.

Yes there are upper level CEO's and shit that earn a crap load. Yes stockholders should prevent or object to such if they do not care for that as well. Especially if the company is not doing so well. I also know some car companies are kicking out some of the same shit with different options as different vehicles. Still I think biggest issue they have is their costs and the fucking unions.

Seriously screw the unions. Car unions, airline unions, school unions, you name it. Just about everything they touch bleeds money and sucks ass beyond any scope possible. I have had long fights about this as well with family members as many of them belong to unions or did at some point.

I've been the working man for 30 years..:glugglug

well those 3 million are out of work and we wind up in a depression more will get to find out firsthand right on this board than ever imagined.

this is almost $40k a DAY for the year

not sure what the guy did to deserve that kind of money

the point is shit is fucked. no matter what people do, shit is fucked. so its either dig the hole deeper like is happening now with more money going to companies that have already proven they don't know how to manage themselves or just let capitalism self correct, big companies will shut down and there will be a market for something and then someone else can come in and have their go at it

thats the idea of the whole capitalism thing isn't it? if you run a good show, then you live a good life but if your shit stinks then you stink right alongside it.

the way it is now is if you run a good show then you live the high life, if your shit stinks then you just dump it over everyone below you and live the high life

This is not slavery. There is no "man" who makes you work for someone. You have a choice in who you work for, where you work, where you live. Benefits are also not a right, they are a perk. This whole argument about what would happen in such a company could be summoned up just by looking at a company like Costco. Great wages, promotes from within, great hours, benefits, etc. and no unions.

if this is the case then why not give bailout money directly to those that make the economy tick?

Because obviously the CEO's and upper echelon need it more than we do.

</sarcasm>

You mean like a stimulus check? :winkwink:

Are you kidding me? What is that compared to the money the CEO's swindle every year? You do realize 5 banks already got some of that bail out money, right? You think those guys didn't ensure their salary and bonuses right off the bat?

This bail out is one bad joke and once we get the punchline I guarantee there won't be anyone laughing.

Oh, and let us not forget the little tricks they used to get some of that money back on stimulus checks by keeping the checks of people who owed them and sent 1,000's to the wrong addresses later to be reclaimed by them and stuffed back into their pockets.

When someone was given a benefit for 20 yrs its not a perk its part of their pay. Do you have any idea what back breaking work factory work is? Its not like all of us sitting at a computer, people could do this type of work til they die. Factory work wears the body out. People got hurt all the time trying to do their job and are pushed to hit so many cars an hour. Some people arent book smart, they can work with their hands. They should be allowed to make a good living be able to support a family. How well would most here do on 10 bucks an hour?
Costco is also rare not the norm because they feel a well paid happy employee stays a long time so in the end it costs them less in the long term. Most companies dont give a shit, its get as much as possible for as little as possible. If you make your living in porn a strong middle class is paramount to you making a living.

As I stated before. Besides the 5 banks that are already getting some. There are many banks getting stimulus money just to motivate spending. Banks that are not in financial trouble at all. One local business credit union just got 17 million today. They just need to start making payments back to the government in a few years and also give the government 5% of what they make with it. - Free money in effect. Just glad the bank I use rejected it and said they did not need it and had plenty plus did not want to burden the tax payer even more.

Considering I've worked with my hands and brains for the Petroleum industry for 25 years,everybody needs gas.I've dealt with the aviation industry for 12 years and you don't get a second chance there:winkwink:
Unions have their good and bad.would you trust Mahib with a year experience in the refueling system of a airplane or jet that could hold 200 people per trip or a man that has been in it for 30 years?

so I guess our gov't should help all companies that make bad business decisions, don't keep up with the times, and ignore consumer needs.

It's fucking ridiculous.

Not at all but you have to look at the big picture. If everything was fine and it was only the car companies then its different. This will be the cherry on the shit economy cake. I think these loans have to come with real terms not like the bank bailout.

Nearly everyone in my family either is in or was in factory work or something just as rough. I know very well what it is like. The benefits are still a perk not a right or anything else. People decide what they will work for and where. The big difference is that they happen to be working for a company large enough to potentially get it from. There are countless people working back breaking jobs with no benefits all over this country. Just about name the industry and there is people being eaten up. Have one cousin who is not even thirty yet and both of his knees are shot from laying carpet. Father ended up with a fucked up back after being hit by a crane, also working somewhere with no benefits at the time.

If Costco is the rare and not the norm, and Costco is still in business and the car companies and those who have such problems are in trouble what does that tell you? Perhaps companies ran like Costco are better suited for today's life and older companies who have the past mindset are not. Can we not make room for more companies that are willing to step up and be responsible? Especially since nearly every large company has been created when other large ones fell and times were very hard money wise.

what was the stimulus check, $600?

$700 billion = $2500 to each and every one of the 300 million people in the US

so big families with 4,5 people would get a nice injection of $10k

thats the kind of money that starts economies, $600 buys hookers

Exactly. But that will never happen. The FED likes doing whatever the FED fucking wants. I mean did they ask anyone if they could give that $2 plus trillion they just gave away to "undisclosed parties"? And pretty much told everyone it was none of their business.

Of course I would trust someone more with 30 years experience, as long as he earned his job on his own merits and could be fired without a hassle. Experience has nothing really to do with a union though. Hell look at the school system if you want. Does a 30 year tenured teacher guarantee any better teaching ability than someone fresh out of school?

After Shock is right about unions, the workers start demanding more and the top guys aren't about to give up what they have and so you start heading towards a dangerous point where one or the other has to give

and because one of them is in charge, the other one gets fucked

US Car companies have been fucking themselves for a long time, they are just using this bailout to their advantage. Everyone circles around daddy when he's handing out cash.

We still would have to pay it back. Reality is those who are responsible would probably invest it or pay off some debt. The majority though would just buy some new rims or a better TV than the 600 (think it was up to 1400) could buy.

spending is what makes an economy work.

Stimulus checks are nothing but a joke... They are nothing more than:

"Here you go, see how nice we really are..."
Uncle Sam pats us lovingly on the head.
"Go on little sheep... Go spend your money... Don't worry yourself with what we're up to."

I do not fully agree with that.

Saving, investing, and actually producing something is what makes an economy work. Constantly buying stuff on credit that is mostly imported does very damn little for our economy outside of keeping some teenagers in blue shirts employed at minimum wage.

What is the averages savings rate of a US citizen now?
What is the average debt of a US citizen now?

Now take a look at citizens of a country that got hammered financially and recovered after a decade or so, like Japan.

Teachers and techs are totally different

how so? a tech working for 30 years can still suck at what he does, just the same as the teacher

Yeah, but you do not need a union to ensure either one has the experience or skill to do the job.

Are there unions in an organization like the Navy or Air Force that ensure the people and techs handling, fueling, or even flying the equipment etc. are skilled and qualified to do so? (I know the answer, but same point applies - unions are not needed)


PS this is a forever argument and I am way to tired to keep going on. :upsidedow

the thing is spending is great and it is what makes the economy run

but what ruins spending is money hoarding

its those rich billionaire dudes who take their money and shove it away somewhere that it cant be touched by taxes and they dont spend any of it

thats when the problems start happening

if those guys dumped that money into research, or anything really it could do wonders but instead it just sits there, making them richer but doing nothing for anyone else

It is like it is a giant game of texas hold em. They have huge ass stacks and a the rest of us are struggling or being taken out by either the blinds or playing the best hand we are dealt. Meanwhile they can just hoard more and bully the other players.

We are partially to blame for the problems today. Too many people spend beyond their limits.

I can understand going in debt to buy a house....but don't go beyond what you can afford comfortably. Someone will be approved for a 400k loan and they want the 500k or 600k house

I can understand going in debt to buy a car... again don't go beyond what you can afford. If you can get a new Nissan Sentra... don't push for the Nissan 350z

Too many people put shit on credit instead of waiting until they can afford it without using credit. Delayed gratification people... hello

Why do you think stores put offers out saying don't pay until 2010.... they want you to go in debt and get you to buy so they can stay in business.

It's fucking simple.... stop trying to keep up with everyone else and buy what you can afford.


As far as this whole bailout situation....

It is setting a bad precedent. Let a company make bad business decisions without fear because our tax dollars will save them.

AIG is given what 80 billion and they go on a $500,000 vacation

AIG gets another 60 billion and they go on another $300,000 vacation

Our money paying for a company that made bad business decisions

Now the car makers are crying. I understand the number of jobs on the line and it makes me sick that the situation is there but there is a reason why they can't compete with the other car makers.... higher overhead, lower quality, higher vehicle cost, to name a few.

I don't think helping the car makers will fix the problem, it will only prolong the inevitable.

Should we help Circuit City too because they owe Hewlett-Packard Co 118 million? Help them because they owe 116 million to Samsung? Help them pay the 60 million they owe to Sony.

Where does it end?

I don't pretend to know it all but that is my :2 cents:

exactly especially with the thing about the blinds!