Well, I think McCain won tonight
 

He may have stepped on his dick with his line about an exception for a woman's health in a partial birth abortion ban.....but

Overall he was aggressive, made some good points on policy....things I disagree with but he still made strong arguments that may resonate with alot of Americans.

Obama seemed to be in a prevent defense tonight, and to totally abuse the football metaphor, held McCain to field goals all night.
If this was the 4th quarter, McCain won it 12-0, but Obama was already ahead by more than a couple of touchdowns.

McCain probably goes up in the polls after this, but not enough to affect the final outcome IMO.

and I don't think he used the word Maverick once...

I see no poll change.
I feel he won maybe a third of the debate. Then again I saw the split screen version and he dipped way into the creepiness ravine. I am sure he did better on non split screen and perhaps pulled a tie.

I was watching the split screen on CSPAN. McCain eyes fluttered like crazy when he was about to lie and had a nervous smile.

McCain seemed awkward through out the debate and did some really weird stuff.

http://www.picpulse.com/presidents.jpg

I think first half McCain was rolling good. Obama got his footing on healthcare and I think he closed stronger after that section.

I think McCain overall did better but he needed to do much more in order to really make it a game changer. He did setup the remaining time to be about the tax plans and spending. Not much about McCain's campaign so far proves to me he will be able to do it properly but it is set up there.

You're right he did look creepy.....but alot of the debate is won or lost in the press coverage directly after.....and he raised some questions about Ayers that I don't think Obama answered well enough, and the Joe the Plumber thing will pick up alot of coverage as well.

^^^ WTF was he doing there?

Yeah I don't think a game changer was possible from McCain. The only game changer would have been a big gaffe by Obama....which is why he was in prevent defense all night.

Yep I totally agree with you there. McCain made progress in setting the table, but like your Football analogy he had Obama in a tough spot a few times or pinned down at the 1, and McCain instead of blitzing for the safety, back off and let Obama punt it back.

The next couple days will be interesting to see if the McCain campaign is actually going to be on taxes and spending like McCain setup or not. I have my doubts still.

And for Obama his best recourse would be to go back to campaigning like he was tied. I think he looked a bit too defensive tonight and almost like he was bored to be there. ie too comfortable with his lead right now. You get that way it can get away from you in a blink of the eye.

McCain reminded me of Al Gore. Al Gore rolled his eyes and shaking his head.


I believe McCain surrounded himself with the wrong people that made him do thing he didn't want to do.

McCain just seemed way off.

I think McCain did a lot better than he has in the past. He came out strong and made some good points. But in the end I think it was a slight victory for Obama. He held his ground and looked calm and collected while McCain looked pissed and I think as it went on Obama picked up steam. McCain will probably see a slight bump in the polls but I think he lost some of his base with his views on abortion and his supreme court justice ideas. Even if just a small number of the base turn away from him in a key state like Virgina that will do him in.

In the end he made a good showing, but he still needs a miracle and now he only has about 2 weeks to pull that off.

I believe McCain has already realized he's going to lose the presidential election.

All the polls/focus groups of independent voters gave it to Obama by a large margin: Real Clear Politics, CNN, CBS, MSNBC and even the Fox News Focus group.

He's been campaigning hard, he's alot different on the stump than he is in debates. Debates were never his strong suit.....if they were he would have said, in response to bringing up Ayers "People who live in 7 glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and brought up the Keating 5 and stuff like that.

That's not his style though. All he had to do in the debates was cross the "commander in chief threshold" (term courtesy of Hillary Clinton) in the minds of voters, and he did that in the first debate.

I seriously doubt they're going to let up....in fact I expect a surge in airwave saturation....part of that being the 30 minute infomercial on the Wednesday before the election.

He's going to dominate nightly news coverage on Thursday and Friday with them talking about what he did in the commercial, and then all of the Sunday editorials will be about it as well.

Nail, meet coffin. :2 cents:

Hahaha god bless you ;-):thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

The only way to surge the airwaves anymore would be to buy every commercial seen on TV. In Michigan its insane the number of ads from him.

If the spread the weath msg gets traction then the race tightens up. If it doesn't, then the race is over.

I have my doubts McCain and his campaign first can organize this into a clear msg and two can get the fiances to get it in front of the battleground viewers.

Lets just say I got your money set aside :)

He killed Obama for the first 30 minutes of the debate. But the rest he just came across as a prick. I don't think tonight changes much except for a week of this Joe the Plumber shit.

that screencap is fucking wierd

I thought I begged off on the bet?

Yeah the spread the wealth thing was stupid, I dunno why he said that. I haven't seen the actual exchange or read a transcript or anything though....I've just heard republicans bitching about it.....so maybe it wasn't that bad.

McCain did better tonight, no doubt. But did he convince Obama voters and/or independents to switch sides..unlikely.

I think Obama did much better with women. McCain really fucked himself over a few times with women. First of all, they don't like the angry guy. Second, his mocking of the "health of the mother" can't play well with women.

I said I would send it you for your child's education fund. no bet, if he loses you still owe me nada.

The spread the wealth is an issue that is interesting but it basically is at the basis of his tax plan. Tax the rich and then give that money to the poor with the refundable tax credits to people that have no income tax liability currently. Basically they get checks from the IRS every year even though they paid nada. I was kinda stunned Obama told Joe the plummer that it what it is, and even more surprised he didn't try to deny it in the debate as that is an issue that could be a hot button issue.

Its basically welfare. Instead of taking the increased taxes and putting that into the budget, he actually is taking the money and giving it to the lower and middle class directly.

This is one of things that bugs me the most about him actually. The other is his health care plan. It doesn't go near far enough to get true universal health care. Clintons plan was much better but even that fell short. One saving grace on that issue for me is that when the Democrats get fillibuster proof senate and house, maybe they will push thru a more universal plan than currently on the table.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

McCain may have won tonight - but this website steals the show for any post-debate action >> www [dot] PalinAsPresident [dot] com

Enjoy, lol.

He didn't really win... in 3 weeks you'll see :)

Not sure McCain "won". If he did it was close and certianly not a game changer. Fact is if he had picked Romney for VP he'd actually have a chance at winning this election.

RE: Spread the wealth around
The earned income tax credit was actually Reagan's idea, and it was expanded under Clinton. (This is the refundable tax credit for people with no tax liability)
It was created to make work more attractive than welfare. IMO they should just raise the minimum wage above the poverty level and get rid of the EITC....but what can ya do?

Hillary's tax plan was very similar to Obama's. Basically put the top brackets, plus capital gains and dividends back where they were under Bill Clinton. Why Obama characterized it as "spreading the wealth around" I dunno, and agree it could be a hot button issue.
That's not how I see it, I see it as the people who have benefitted most from our system paying the most to keep our system going.
Anyhoo

RE: Health Care
You're right that they may get a more comprehensive bill passed if they get close to 60 democrats in the Senate....and Obama has shown just during the course of this campaign that he's not an idealogue, he's a pragmatist, and is willing to negotiate to get things done.

Although the democrats had the majority the first time we tried universal health care in 1993 and it didn't go through. So we may actually end up with a plan less comprehensive than the one Obama is proposing, and have to try and add to it from there.
At least we know this time we'll get "something", instead of a scuffle, a cloud of dust, and alot of finger pointing....which is what we usually get.

I completely disagree, McCain looked angry and pissed off the whole time. It made everything that came out of his mouth sound like shit.

Found a video with Joe the Plumber
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/195153.html

It's not as bad as the GOP is making it sound....and I wish the whole exchange was on tape....not just edited like this was.

If they get the 60 seats to be filibuster proof they can do anything they want. Its something they didn't have in 93. They had the majority but not enough to avoid getting filibustered.

If the senate gets to 60 seats it will be the first time its happen with a filibuster proof house and senate as well as the same party in the oval office since 1930. The party can do absolutely anything they want if that happens.

This picture sums it all up. Obama leading and McCain flailing a ways behind and eventually dying on the vine.

And if they fuck up they will get ALL the blame and the GOP will win big in 2010 like they did in 1994 and the GOP nominee will beat Obama in 2012.

Oh absolutely and you can almost ensure thats what will happen. The invitation to go overboard is too great and hard to resist. Pelosi and Reid will be salivating to spend away on everything.

Ironic name since the less your earn the more credit you get. You don't even have to work fulltime at minimun wage to earn enough to get the full credit. I agree raise the minmum wage then to help small business out you can give them a tax break with the savings of not having to dole out earned income checks anymore. Not to mention that earned income credits aren't taxed. A pay raise would be. That will also help offset any tax breaks for small businesses. It would also make taxes easier and reduce fraud.

Yeah, but if I remember right it wasn't a filibuster that killed the health care plan back then, I think in the end alot of democrats were against it as well.

Also, if they overreach, like Gingrich did, it'll bite them in the ass in 2010.

Either way, they'll get something done, and it'll be better than the system we have now, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for us to copy Canada.

I don't agree with alot of the details you mentioned, but on the big issue we agree.

Raise minimum wage and get rid of tax subsidies that are used to supplement low wages.

I don't see the point in having a minimum wage if it's not set above the poverty level anyways. They should jack it up, and then tie it to inflation so it readjusts automatically, and then never have to mess with it again.

But if one is a neo-con then why is he worried about Obama being president? If they are so sure he and Congress will fuck up the let it happen and secure the GOP's power for the next 20 years? Why have McCain win then not able to do shit because Congress is run by the Dems and if things go bad it's the President who gets most of the blame and McCain loses in 2012 and Congress doesn't get enough blame so they still hold onto their majority?

The only thing appealing about a McCain presidency is that you have checks and balances. Seemed to work with Clinton. The only issue is that McCain seems more and more like an idiot and then there's Palin which right there will stop me from voting for him. I can not risk a President Palin.

i got about the same impression. mccain seems more firm on where he stands and makes pointer where oboma is more on the defense alot.

Listen you have to give and take. You can't ask business that in 2006 were paying $5.15 and hour to pay $10.50 an hour in 2010. You'll never get support for that. If you give business a tax break in exchange for higher minimum wage you'll get broad support for it.

Many states do have minimum wages that adjust yearly. Florida enacted on a few years back. It make sense and make it easier on workers AND businesses. A business KNOWS a raise is coming each year and knows how much it is. And it's not a very large increase and he's better able to absorb it. Instead he PRAYS for the minimum wage to never go up which is eventually does and because it's been 10 years it's goes WAY up and then he's fucked because he'll have a hard time absorbing the cost. I feel that if youa re willing to pull in a full days work you should get a decent wage even if your job is considered "unskilled". Face it, we all think flipping burgers at McDonald's is easy, yet most of us woudn't take that job even or $50 an hour. I think there's something to be said for compensating people for doing the grunt work no one else would do.

yeah Bush was firm on his stands too, see where that got us. Flexibility is not a liability. I appreaicate a guy who can lsiten to what the otehside says take into consideration and maybe he sees that the other side may have a point or too and adjust his view accordingly. You see where having someone totally rigid, not willing to give an inch or hear the other side and having the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude has led us to.

Not sure if other caught this but McCain said Palin's baby had Autism, when it's down's syndrome..kinda shows you how much he really knows his VP pick.

More like an old man trying to make a joke and Obama diving for a glass of water....

That's one way to look at it.

The way I look at it is they've been getting away with underpaying their workers for decades and now the tide will turn.

I agree you can't do it all in one year, too much of a shock, but we can raise it $1 per hour per year until it's the inflation adjusted equivalent of what minimum wage was in the 1960's (today would be like 9.50 an hour).

How is it that the value of a CEO has gone up 100 fold in the past 10-15 years but the workers at the bottom aren't worth anymore at all?
Obviously I agree that a CEO is more valuable, but he's not 100 times more valuable than he was in 1995. The money is there for higher wages, it's just all gone to the folks at the top. :2 cents:

I could maybe go along with the tax break if it were temporary. If it existed only during the 2 or 3 years the wage was increased substantially, and then expired when the wage stabilized and was tacked to inflation.
Otherwise, you're really back to the government subsidizing low wages again.

Because I don't want the GOP to run it for 20 years. I want the Democrats to get back to who they were and back to being more centrist instead of going even further left like they have been doing do the past 8 years. And I feel McCain with a democratic house will go back to being the center right guy that he was until he ran for this office.

Either way in the times we have now, there is no way either of these guys gets a 2nd term.

He really stepped on his dick when talking abour roe v wade.

He said he would NOT use a litmus test such as basing his decision on whether or not a judge was for or against roe v wade.

Then he wrapped up his comment by saying that he was confident that any judge even NOMINATED would already share his view on roe v wade. WTF, what a bullshit thing to say and do. I hope there were not too many people letting that zoom over their heads.

I wont use a litmus test (but anyone nominated would already be put through that test prior to nomination).

Gotcha John. Gotcha.

I wondered about that each time he made reference to her knowing so much about autism. I personally don't know how he kept a straight face when he answered the question as to her ability to be president.

I think that was McCain's best debate showing. I don't think it was near good enough to do him any good. He sounded like a child on the playground, saying that the Wallace comparisons had not be repudiated, when I read the statement from Obama's camp saying the remarks were inappropriate. I'm not sure what more McCain expected him Obama to do about comments he, nor anyone associated with his campaign made.

I watched it on cnnhd, and it was split screen nearly the entire time. I try to overlook the certain..stiffness?...that McCain has around his mouth, as I believe I've read that that is due to the skin cancer he has had.

But there was no overlooking the disrespectful huffing, puffing, and stuff that bordered on eye rolling when Obama spoke.

To my ears, he as much as said he would not appoint a Supreme Court justice who was in favor of Roe v Wade. That combined with his dismissal of abortion when the mother's health is in danger will cost him with women.

He lost this one when he named that zealot nutcase as his VP.

A nice thought except the grunt work no one wants to do is that way for a reason. How can you justify the value of that work outweighs the fact that the people most qualified to perform it are the ones that decided a long time ago that they weren't interested in pursuing the criteria necessary to attain other more interesting/acceptable employment?

The fact is, we have bred a population of people who believe they are really worth more than they are. Natural Selection has been thrown out the door and replaced by the US Welfare System (in its many forms and disguises), of which minimum wage and it's discussion is a huge part.

The last time I personally cared about minimum wage was in 1986 when I was 14 (what, it was $2/hr?). I was happy to get it then. By the time I was 18, minimum wage was like $3.25/hr and I was going to college and making $8/hr. I worked and took jobs that paid me more so I could get qualifications to make more money. Where the fuck do all these people that expect handouts and protections come from? Who taught them core values that exclude doing better for yourself everyday? This seriously perplexes me and makes me wonder where we are going as a nation.

I get the feeling that the assumption was made McCain might win, but it was doubtful. Someone needed to be a fall guy. So many interesting things happening during the campaign period.

For all those that are conspiracy theorists, how's this one sound??? The Dems get their supermajorities, they win the White House, they get more liberal judges appointed..... and then everything goes to shit (by unnatural forces).. and who's to blame??? Well the Dems of course. They didn't do anything to stop it.

Welcome the conservatives and the One World Gov't, right?

The biggest reason I can't vote for Obama is that one party in power thing. There's plenty of other things I disagree with him about, but I also have to say some of his thoughts are close enough to the middle that I find acceptability in them.

I just can't fathom one party having ALL the power in the country. Dems or Republicans. Absolute power corrupts absolutely as they say. The checks and balances in this country are the most genius part of the entire government setup by the founders.