Does the young offender laws in your country hold young offenders accountable?
 

Question:

Does the Youth Criminal Justice Act (or whatever you call it in your country/state etc) adequately hold young offenders accountable for their crimes?

An existing poll going on in Canada has the "no, it doesn't" vote currently at 93%, and the "yes" vote at 7%. Very telling result.

I'm just wondering what the concensus is around the world on this.

theyre gradually changing it here in Holland

Mainly cause crimes are done by younger ppl more n more, last week another raid on a money transfer car (sorry dont know the exact word) and they were 14 and 16

DA is gonna try to get these ppl convicted as adults, it already happens and now theyre trying to force it legally.

Unless our youth laws have changed unbeknownst to me, they're a joke.

12 year old kids may not have had the capacity 30 years ago to understand the consequences of their actions, but 12 year old kids today do.

I'd like to see mandatory LIFE prison sentences for murder convictions. Life meaning LIFE, not 25 years with the chance of early parole. Fuck that. If a 12 or 13 year old rifles a school or commits a gang killing...away you go for life.

I'm pretty liberal but draw the line when it comes to violent crimes, for youths OR adults.

In Canada our laws don't really hold anyone accountable.

How long did Carla Hamoka (sp?) serve?

Christ, my 10 year old son knows what it means to die. The ONLY concession I'd be willing to make would be MAYBE he doesn't know exactly what WOULD kill someone. But someone putting a gun to the head of another and executing them, knows damn well what they're doing.

One sibling who stabs another with a knife might not realize that they may kill them. They may just want to hurt them during a fight over the TV or something.

Jesus, that's nice to think about.

Exactly. She shouldn't have, and Bernardo should NEVER get out of prison.

Karla Homolka btw.

10 years, due to a plea bargain for her testimony against Bernardo.

No they haven't changed, and that's the point of this thread and the poll currently in Canadian online newspapers.

It would seem that over 90% of Canadians feel the young offenders act is a joke.

Which it is.


Some kids here in Winnipeg were stealing cars last year and then running random people down with them. No one was killed but several people were hurt, one jogger was banged up pretty bad and could have easily been killed. The little shits that did it seem to have got hardly a slap on the wrist.

They scoff as they leave the courtroom.

Right. I forgot about that.

I'm not saying that those kids shouldn't be punished more harshly, but I DO admittedly have a problem putting them in an environment where the potential to become a lifetime criminal is greater.

Murder, away for life. Lesser charges, I'm torn as to how I'd like to see that handled.

Did she actually serve 10 years though?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bernardo/

July 4, 2005:
Karla Homolka is released from prison after serving her 12-year sentence.

Twelve, that was it. I knew it was something close to that.

I tend to side with the camp that says she should have gotten life.


I'm a fan of those boot camps. Little car-theiving property-destroying bastards can have a choice, 3-5 years in youth detention (prison) or 1-2 years at an accredited boot camp (where they learn severe military-like discipline, respect for others, SELF-respect, and did I mention discipline?)

That wasn't really the fault of our laws. It was just the result of a very poorly prepared prosecution. They offered her that sweetheart deal of a plea to send Paul away before they knew they had all that damning evidence on tape.

They should have waited longer before offering her a bargain, and they could have had both of them locked away for good.

Ron, you cant put a 12 year old away for life....

yeah the law is a joke here in Canada.

I heard about something being tabled where if a young offender reoffends while still underage that they can at least release their name and information to the public.

Sounds like a step in the right direction, rather than giving them total anonymity the way it is now.

Not now you can't.

Like I said, if a 12 year old pulled a knife and school and stabbed someone a couple of times over a girl, that's one thing. If he stabbed him 50 times in the neck and chest, that's another thing altogether and I have no sympathy for the kid.

And if a 12 year old kid pulled off an execution style killing over drugs, you don't think he SHOULD be sent to prison for the rest of his life? What do you think about adults that pull off execution style killings? Should THEY ever get out? There are definitely different maturity levels in all 12 year olds out there, so assessments would have to be done, uh, very carefully.

I don't believe in sending that kid to a youth center or prison where, chance are, he'll learn the trade of crime even further. He'll become associated with gangs and probably be more dangerous when he gets out. Fuck that.

maybe we should use 12 year old soldiers in Afghanistan ...

Okay, forget the 12 year old argument for a minute. Do you think killers should go to prison for the rest of their natural life, or does the current standard of 25 years with possibility of early parole suffice?

Just trying to gauge whether you're morally against sending 12 year olds away for life, or just a bleeding heart liberal. :winkwink:

my concern is with the 12 year old being charged as an adult, because i believe a 12 year old is not an adult or even close to it..

My only objection in all this is that kids who commit crimes are not punished enough. That's it, plain and simple, and it goes right down to small children who behave badly I'm afraid. When I was a kid if I acted out too much I got spanked. My parents weren't trying to abuse me, they were trying to instill a sense of right and wrong and that there would be serious consequences to my actions. And they succeeded.

Nowadays there seems to be very little in the way of real consequences for kids though. Parents are unwilling to administer any real discipline, and when a few do they are all too often reported to authorities and harshly reprimanded for it. Our society has become, to put it bluntly, fucked in the proverbial head.

Kids grow up having a sense they can get away with anything, and they do. While I am thankful for the few who do have respect for others I find it amazing that so many others simply have zero fear of reprisal. They tag your garage with zig-zaggy bullshit with their spraypaint, they jam a screwdriver in your car doorlocks (and cause $1000 damage), they lip off at you as if they have 100% impunity, and more. All because we as a society have become so afraid of damaging the little darlings that we are no longer capable of disciplining them in any capacity it seems.

I'm sorry but when a kid commits murder or is a repeat offender of serious crimes I really don't care that they are underage. They should go away for a long time. Maybe not forever, but a LONG time. None of this 1-4 years until they are 18 bullshit. Serve the first part of their sentence in youth detention, then the rest in real prison once they are of age.

My sympathy over their "tender age" has run out.

It was a combination of factors - starting with a totally botched investigation by Niagara Regional Police detectives.

To think...she's now taken courses in ECE (early childhood education)...after being an accomplice to killing her own sister and two other young girls (possibly three). :Oh crap

worked in Sierra Leone

fuck that Homolka deal - they should have thrown away the key - deal or no deal - and if she and whatever scumbag lawyer went to bat for her cried foul every judge up to the Supreme Court of Canada should have just laughed at her.

there are occassions when the law should be thrown out the window.

I know you weren't asking me but I'll answer that anyway... No, I don't think 25-to-life for a murderer is harsh enough. If what they did deserves a life sentence then it should at least be life, as in no parole ever. In some extreme cases I even support bringing back the death panalty. Bernardo for instance, I wouldn't quibble one bit if they ended that guy's existance.

But for young offenders whose crimes are murder or repeate offending of serious crimes, I think this country could do with harsher sentences for them than they have now.

And I guess it's "tough shit" on the whole notion of them becoming hardened criminals if they go to prison. That's really a choice, not a given. My nephew was sent away for 6 months back in the late 80's, for repeat offenses involving B&Es. Truth is, although he says it was the worst thing he's ever had to go through it was also the BEST thing for him a the time. It opened his eyes big time, forced him to get his head out of his ass, and ever since he's lived a much more solid honest life. He's married now, has a family, and is earning a good living.

I don't see prison as necessarily the best solution to punish young offenders but as far as I know it's all we have. It's either that or let them off scot-free.

people that argue "put them in jail for life" mustn't have the mental capacity to think past that and take in mind the amount of money it will cost to house inmates eternally.

prison systems are crumbling now because America cannot support them. The cost of an inmate is astounding, but hey lck em all up for life and let god sort em out! Murders get off all the time with just a few years served because PRISONS ARE FULL

PS: does Canada pay for juvenile detention centers from house taxes like here?

When you pay homeowners tax here, it clearly shows you what amount is going to "juvenile detention centers/rehabilitation of minors"

it makes my ass pucker to have to pay money to house criminal kids.

executing them would be cheaper, why dont we just go for that option? 12 year old kills someone, why put him in jail for life? lets just execute and get it over with.

also, arent prisons supposed to "rehabilitate" not put you in prison for life?

I believe they are funded federally and provincially by government. It's still our tax dollars but I don't think it comes specifically from property tax.

There's lots to address here, but I'll stick to the last sentence due to lack of time.

Yes, prisons are supposed to rehabilitate...those that are capable of BEING rehabilitated. When it comes to non-violent crimes, I have no problem with that at all. Even some violent crimes IF the person CAN be rehabilitated, so be it (I don't have all the answers).

But we as a society are so focused on rehabilitation that we seem to have forgotten that sometimes, people DESERVE to be PUNISHED. They'll still get their rehabilitation, but I don't see putting them away for longer periods as well. A 12 year old knowing he'll get probabation and be out on the street in 3 months may think differently if he won't be free until he's 18. Contrary to popular opinion, there are deterrents out there that be utilized. Not everyone is going to be deterred, but some will be. The same as the death penalty (which I don't believe it btw).

Like CDSmith said, it's illegal in places to punish your kids with a smack on the ass. Yet today, kids are less respectful and more violent than ever. Anyone that says there isn't a connection in there some place is looking at it with rose colored glasses. Sure there are other influences, but I was TAUGHT respect and sometimes it wasn't pretty...but I'm a better person for it.

As far as killers go, I don't give a shit if they CAN be rehabilitated. They took someone else's life, they should lose theirs...for all intents and purposes, by being imprisoned for life. I do have the mental capacity to see beyond the punishment and include the cost btw. That's where home arrest should come into play for non violent criminals.

Fair enough. But I believe that some of them take advantage of the young offenders act.

Over all, Canadian laws seriously need to be updated!

Regarding so-called ""young"" offenders, Harper (no, not president Harper) is on the right track, but, due to the amount of bleeding heart socialists we have in this country, odds are what he proposes will be rejected.
I'd also like to see parents be held responsible (includes financially) for their children's actions!

I'd also like to see more serious jail terms and heftier fines be given to all white-collar criminals!

Either way, I am not opposed to paying more money to keep criminals where they belong! I just don't think we need to extend to them so many niceties. Make them work so to pay for the financial burdens that they create.



Agreed---Canadian laws and the judicial system is a f'ing joke!

Carla was not a youth, by any means. When she aided in the murder of two teens, as well the many rapes, she was married! Old enough to understand the meaning of that institute yet not mentally prepared to accept responsibility for premeditated action?? Wrong!
The mere 12year sentence (Her own f'ing sister!) she received was far from what she should have really been given! If not in jail for the remainder of her life, she should spend it in an institute for the criminally insane.
I am prepared to allocate tax-dollars to that. But, of course the French-Canadians would welcome her. They, like the Parisian, have a knack for welcoming/accepting criminal behavior.

Alternatively, I would have loved to have seen them drop the needle on that ugly skank!

all that and you didnt address the first line and main point: THE COST OF KEEPING CRIMINALS IN JAIL FOR LIFE.

no one is debating whether or not criminals should be punished, what you claim is the answer is to put kids in jail for life.... so... what about the cost?

I am already paying juvenile detention fees for your bad ass kid, now I gotta pay to keep him alive till he dies in jail? pay all his medical bills while he lives etc? You think jail is frree?

jailing criminals for life is not the fix or the answer buddy

Dammit, I was gonna address this earlier but tried to avoid it.

WHY should parents be held responsible when they're being told HOW they're allowed to discipline their kids? Obviously there's a difference between a spanking and child abuse, but when some lady calls the cops because I give my kid a swat on the ass, when her neighbor's kid (who doesn't get spanked) throws a brick through her car's window, she has NO right to demand compensation from the parents. Let me discipline my kid how I see fit, short of abuse naturally, then I'd consider it.

Oh, and am I the only one that thinks Karla Homolka was HOT! ?? Forgetting what she did of course, if you can.

Other than those two things, I agree with you. :pimp

ah well im lucky enough to live in a state that loves putting kids in jail, we even outsource and will take kids from other states. I belive Louisiana has more juenile jails than many states... (not sure as of recently though) and because of that it clearly states how much of your property tax goes to juvenile jails/center ec...

thwe parents of crminal kids should be forced to pay the boarding fees of housing their crminal ass kids, not the people who are good citizens and are paying tax on their home, just to keep your kid in jail.

it burns my fucking ass

Putting kid KILLERS in jail for life, I have no problem with. There's a whole tax debate thing I'm not gonna get into, although I believe I did address it somewhat by offsetting the cost by NOT imprisoning white collar criminals as much and giving them house arrest. Again, I don't have ALL the answers, nor do I pretend to. I have a strong opinion about it though.

Would you want a kid who's killed already to be released after 3 or 5 years, having been rehabilitated and then killing YOUR kid? I wouldn't. If they've killed once, noone can say they're not capable of doing it again. And there's been too many cases of people being proven innocent after the fact for me to believe in the death penalty...although I used to.

For juveniles that committed crimes, especially violent, I like the boot camp idea, but can easily see the point of it getting lost when someone claims they were abused.

I did state that current laws suck! Well, that is one of them!

A parent should be allowed to smack the evil out of their children, especially if they are constantly bad! I am not saying children whom commit that odd bad deed be punished severely. I am saying them rats with the aspirations of becoming a career criminal be smacked so hard that they see stars until they become adults!

That is why I mentioned bleeding heart socialists. They are chiefly responsible for these stupid laws! Okay, them and the little career criminal bastards!

I stole something, ONCE! My (French foreign legionnaire) father smacked me so fucking hard with a belt, that now even the mere thought of that evil deed makes me bleed, twitch/convulse and hide under the bed sheets for a week!

Good points. However, I don't think it's necessarily about laying blame on the parents for them raising a bad kid, it may be more about getting proper restitution. You as a victim can't get much if anything out of a kid, but you can certainly in a lot of cases get something from the kid's parents for the kid's wrongdoings.

It's a whole other debate though, and there are good arguments both for and against it, obviously.

I do find your opinions on spanking and parents adminitstering real discipline to their kids quite refreshing though. :thumbsup

Hot yes, she is. But what that hotness says to me is that it is such a waste and that it is wasted on her. I'm quite glad she didn't decide to move into my nieghborhood. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there who would hit it and be quite willing to overlook what she did, but I am not one of them.

How the hell could anyone find a way to truly trust her?

Oh man. By today's standards I was abused as a child. I remember dreading my dad coming home if I'd done something wrong because I knew damn well I was gonna get a spanking. A couple of times with a leather belt and once my mom broke a wooden spoon on my ass. I don't agree with their methods 100%, but again, I believe I'm a better person for it.

With OUR kids, my wife was totally against spanking, while I was for it WITH an open handed swat on their bare ass. Not too hard, but enough for them to feel it and know what they did was wrong. Eventually she relented and agreed a couple of swats wasn't gonna do them any harm.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've spanked each kid, but I GUARANTEE you, that I felt WAY worse than they did. The key thing that we do that my parents didn't do, was shortly thereafter went into their room and explain WHY they got spanked and why we felt it was necessary.

I remember the last time I spanked my son. He was being brave not wanting to cry, but the look on his face, after I left the room I had tears in my eyes.

Oh, and contrary to what the media seems to stress, I believe that MOST parents DO feel the same way. It's just something people don't talk about, or admit to. Probably out of fear of having CFS called on them.

Your upbringing sounds a lot like mine. My parents were always very loving caring parents, but they had no hangups at all about giving us kids a few whacks on the arse if we got too out of hand or pulled some boneheaded shit. And like you I am a better person for it.

It's a cake walk and the teens know it. Laws should be updated. A sixteen year-old knows when he/she is committing a serious offense.

In my state you can plead Y.O. (youthful offender) until you're 19, if it's a first offense and the crime isn't something major. It's usually the discretion of the trial court judge. I have a relative who's on the prosecution side and the judge usually goes with her recommendations.

I think it's a pretty good deal. I know several people and a few good kids who had a Y.O. plea at some point. It's sealed and doesn't show up on your record, so if you do something dumb when you're young, then your whole life isn't screwed up.

In the US they don't really get punished unless they are poor or a minority. I grew up in the suburbs and many of the parents had good money. They could afford lawyers and in some cases the cops and DA just didn't want to mess with kids. Two examples:

-Some high school kids found out a neighbor was out of town. They broke into the house, threw a monster party and trashed it completely. It was a pretty big story on the local news, took place in a wealthy suburb in a million dollar home. The videos of it were sick, feces on the wall, everything ransacked, vomit and stuff everywhere. The kids got some community service.

-This was in a suburb North of Chicago (here is the story). The suburb is real wealthy, lot of sons of lawyers, doctors, etc. This made national news, the hazing got real bad. Some people had broken bones, were hit with baseball bats and poles, major cuts. It was captured on multiple cameras. The school tried to expel the students and were threatened with a lawsuit and pussed out. The cops didn't do shit. They let the kids come in at their leisure to be booked and the DA cut bullshit deals with all of them.

So it's kind of a mess here in the US. In Chicago, I've seen black kids thrown to the ground, cuffed, and roughed up because they were loitering or playing basketball on courts after hours. In the suburbs, white kids can beat the shit out of people with deadly weapons, get

I think there are some solutions that could be put in place.

- Parents should be held responsible for children's actions. If your child keeps commiting crimes multiple times, you should be fined and in extreme cases serve time.

- Kids should be thrown in juvenile hall more often. I understand not wanting to charge a kid as an adult, but throwing him in juvie for a couple nights can send a nice message to the kid. I'm tired of seeing high school kids getting caught driving drunk and getting some bullshit community service they'll never do.

- Parents should actually stop trying to be best friends with their kids are start being parents. Start disciplining your kids when they fuck up. Just walk around a mall or family restaurant and you'll get sick seeing how shitty parents are these days. If I pulled half the shit I see going on now, my Mom would have smacked the fuck out of me and grounded me.

An example of why I'm against this argument. You have a 16 year old kid who you've TRIED to raise properly, but he's a troublemaker. You ground him one day or take away something he wants and what does he do...trashes the neighbors car because he KNOWS the parents will be punished.

Having the police come to your house and inform you that you owe $3000 for the damages your kid causes would cause some kids TO get the shit beat out of them by the parents, then the parents would be charged further, making a bad situation even worse.

I'm sorry, but it would be embarrassing enough to be the parent of a kid that causes trouble, especially amongst people that you know. I'm not saying that all parents are good parents, because they're not. But to further punish them over what their child does is just wrong.

I'm not naive enough to believe that as good as my kids are now, that the lessons we're instilling in them won't go somewhat by the wayside through the teen years. That doesn't make me a bad parent. There ARE other influences out there that parents can't always control. Anyone that doesn't believe that either doesn't have kids, aren't being realistic or just want someone other than the kid to take responsibility...for being a kid.

P.S. I focused on that one point because I'm so against it, but I actually agree with most everything else you say.

Damn punks get away with murder and they know it..too bad we didn't have the resources for more tough love or atleast put them in the same category as adults

No they dont. The little punks get away with just about everything and nothing is going to change because they know they wont be punished.