What is with sponsors leaving non-US affiliates high & dry re:2257?
 

Just curious as to why sponsors are delivering some hard knocks and forcing non-US affiliates to go back and change their sites in regards to free content and in the case of Karup's even the affiliates own hardcore content?

Seems like a slap in the face and sponsors may be at risk of losing a lot of loyalty to programs that are willing to help out their non-US partners in crime.

I'd venture a guess that each announcement like this pisses off more non-US webmasters that it makes US affiliates happy. It's literally hours of work for some people to end up worse off then where they started. The program receives absolutely no legal benefit in forcing non-US webmasters to comply unnecessarily.

Discuss?

www.extremepaychecks.com is not. they are business as usual with full compliance with the new regs.

heres their announcement on 2257

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...me+paycheck s

sign up to them, i know some others are.

yeah, I find it pretty dumb. Why cause hassle for your affiliates? Its fine if you dont want to give out hardcore content anymore but really, to what advantage is it to US webmasters to make foreigners change their pages?

oh, and if you have herbal traffic, i'll take that. ;)

no 2257 required. :)

I don't like any kind of needless, invasive regulatory moves, whether it's by government bodies or affiliate program owners.

Same shit, different pile.

Thanks A1R3K :)

yeah, Extreme Paychecks seem to have done it the right way

Yea just think it could be that the Sponsors have talked to their lawyers and they are doing what their lawyers have suggested?

Number one if the sponsor is in the US, that means they have to abide by the US laws, which includes making sure their affiliates follow the same laws.

It's the same reason a US sponsor can't accept traffic from some webmatser in some far off country that is using underage models. That may be extreeme but it's the same thing.

Do you have a reference for this?

I have never seen anything like it in regards to the new or the old 2257 regulations.

When the new regs were shown the light of day, one word stuck out to several people. That word was conspiracy. Conspiracy is a very fucking nasty legal word in the US and is one if not the most scary things listed in everything the DOJ released. This of course is just my lil opinion why sponsors are doing the level playing field everybody change deal.

Its self explanatory. If the Sponsor is in the US. Then the sponsor follows the laws of their country.

That has nothing to do with the affiliates though, as the sponsors have no editorial control over what affiliates post on their own websites.

A sponsor can't be held responsible from an arm's length connection to a non-compliant affiliate.

It has everything to do with affiliates.. The sponsor can not knowingly accept traffic from people that are violating US laws. Same reason they can't legally accept traffic from non can spam compliant mailers. It's all the same thing.

Which law states this?

As for non-compliant mailers I believe the sponsor is only responsible to an ISP or the like suing for damages. It has nothing to do with pre-existing laws on the books as far as I know.

I agree this thing is a fucking wreck, not every sponsor is doing the "Level the playing field game" game though, I think that each sponsor is making a decision that they feel is best for their Business and their Affiliates after discussing the new regs and the reach of them with their attorney's.

Yup, exactly....

Read 2257 it states this right in that law I know it was in the coments section.

2257 says nothing about affiliates, it's the relationship between primary & secondary producer that has legal ramifications. Not everybody uses free content.

And even then it only says that the primary producer is responsible for producing the records for the secondary, not that they have to enforce compliance and inspect the secondary's records.

Ok but those Affiliates that DO use the free content assume the position as "Secondary Producer" and must abide by those laws.

I dont really know, but I'm wondering if it's because of the dreaded verbage of "conspiracy" in the regs?

Could it be that if a sponsor knowingly accepts traffic from someone not in compliance, that they could be charged with conspiracy to violate 2257?

I dont know. I'm asking.

The affiliates don't need to abide by any laws from a legal standpoint. I still haven't seen a connection that would hold the program owner responsible for policing compliance other than the weak 'conspiracy' clause.

It might come down to a simple decision.

Decide now who is and who isn't legally allowed to use the content, or have a judge decide it for you.

Why in the hell should that be for a PROGRAM OWNER to decide?

I paid for the content, I pay for the hosting... this is going too far with some programs. When it's either 'spend countless hours needlessly modifying 1000's of old sites' or 'spend 5 minutes to find a new non-US friendly sponsor' the choice is clear.

Marketshare will be won & lost on small points like this.

I'm sure alot of the program owners are excited about a possible court appearence to defend themselves based on your word.


Marketshare: More marketshare will be won by the companies that take the time to comply and assist US affiliates in compliance than anywhere else. Some see this as an opportunity to level the playing field.

We are in the process of putting all of our 2257 stuff in an online accessable database.

Export, honestly it's your choice to follow the law or not follow the law, if your out of the contry and host out of the country than you can choose whichever option you want to. However if you are in the US and you obtain content from an Affiliate program that is offering content that falls in the jursdiction of 2257 than I would suggest that you also be 2257 Compliant, that ultimate choice and fate is yours. Being in the US and going with Non-US Companies isnt going to solve anything for you if you were "Inspected".

Yes because the new rules state if someone provides me cntent that is subject to 2257 adn if I ask for the Model Ids the sponsors HAVE to give me the docs or THEY are in trouble as well. Did you not even read the regs?

Also non-US webmasters that feel they are being treat unfairly are free to promote other sposnros. Which is fine by me, less competition.

then fucking do it already....stop bitching about changing and just do it....in the time you've spent posting about it, you could have already signed up to 10-15-20 different non-US sponsors....have at it and good luck

If that's the case then quit bitching about it and rejoice....you now have a business advantage and can gain that market share you're talking about.

Pull all your links to all U.S. sponsors and only send traffic to non U.S. companies. Or just start your own program with your own free content for affiliates to use since you know so fucking much.

It got my attention, the rest was yeah ok can do that, yeah, yeah, then what the fuck conspiracy?
Conspiracy leads to RICO, RICO leads to loosing all your shit plus jail time, RICO also has arms to reach out and touch everyone connected even if they did not know.

"Help out their non-US partners in crime"

and you laugh at someone who brings up conspiracy as a valid concern?

Here is a little talked about fact that some of you may not be aware of.

There are, and have always been sponsors who do not allow you to promote their program with your own purchased content.

There are and always been sponsors who do not allow you to send traffic directly to a join form.

Why do I put those two items together??? It's because they need some level or assurance that the proper material is being used to promote.

Otherwise youi could set up a CP or BEAST page and send it direct to the sponsor or that sponsors join form. While this is not the sponsors fault it it a valid concern.

Some people are going to give you what you think you want and need to promote them. Use those people. But for christs sake shut the hell up about people trying to protect themselves and their interests.

If you have these "1000's" of pages up making money. The sponsor has done well for you. It might be time to give a little support and do as they ask.

I'm no expert but here is the break down. SPONSORS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR AFFILIATES' ACTIONS! It's that simple. A perfect example is if you spam Twistys then I get fined. I'm guessing the same would go with 2257. They follow the money trail and if I'm paying you and you are breaking the law, Guess what? My ass is probably on the line.

If you own a dot com. If you host in the US. If you have explicit materials on your site. You need to get your shit in order and comply. If not suffer the consquences.

Stop your whining and think about it for a second.
You are paid by the sponsors
Sponsors and paid by processors
Processors are paid by banks
banks are paid by visa.

Visa doesn't want to process for companies that break US law. To get paid you have to comply. That simple. These sponsors aren't screwing you over in anyway. They are doing what has to be done to survive.

I wasn't laughing at anybody. Just stating that the conspiracy bit is foggy at best and not explicity laid out, hence 'weak'.

see sig ;

It always comes back full circle to nobody having the resources to inspect the documentation for international webmasters. The US government can't afford it without any possible return by way of seizing assets, the sponsors can't afford it and neither can the processors.

None of these things were considered when the regulations were drafted so there's mass confusion while everyone is deciding how to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I honestly can't recall Karup's having a policy about not being able to use your own content on your sites promoting them and I've been around for a while. By reading their thread you get the impression that I wasn't the only one with this mis-understanding.

Since you specifically named us (Karups) in your post let me comment on something you are missing.

Our TOS has NEVER allowed webmaster to use content we do not own to promote us this has not changed. Some companies only care about a sale with no regard for the customer we do not want someone to join our site looking for content we do not have this is bad business. The only difference is we are not giving IDs out so you can not use our hardcore content.

FYI we spoke to an attorney if you are a US business using foreign affiliates to circumvent US law you better think twice.

Also if you are so concerned about this can you contact me with your affiliate ID.

As for the 'stop whining'... Politely? No.

Look at some of the statements by the sponsors, contradictory in extreme degrees and other program owners are just getting in line to follow whoever suits their purpose the best. When somebody turns out to be wrong (and somebody has to be..) it will just be another case of the blind leading the blind.

I'm going to push for my freedoms granted to me by being a non-US webmaster and I'll at least make myself heard. If sponsors choose to take my concerns to heart or not is their own business as it is their own company to run as they see fit.

I wouldnt doubt it. Many people never EVER read a programs TOS, or a content license based on experience talking with people.

I'm the odd man out since I read them before joining, and periodically since thats my responsibility, lol.. they can change 5 times per day legally and if I'm ignorant of it, it's my own fault.

I stand corrected.

"foggy" let me try to make it clear for you. A US company announces they are no longer going to do busness with US webmasters. This sure clears up the model ID problem. because non-US webmasters would not ask nor require this info?? sounds like they are trying to get around something??

OR

I am more interested in what NON-US programs are going to do in the line of ID's and 2257 info. Do the supply it at risk of breaking their countries law??
Or do they "Leave US affiliates high & dry re:2257 requirements???

This whole industry needs to comply, US or NON-US.

It cleans everything up and conversions will be better :thumbsup

I'll state again what I've said in a few other threads..

I hold absolutely NO animosity towards program owners that are making these decisions because they see it as the best legal position to take in order to protect themselves, their models & their affiliates.

It's the guys inconveniencing hundreds of foreign webmasters in the name of 'not leaving their US affiliates at a competitive disadvantage' that irk me.

I will gladly take your Traffic, we are completely out of the USA including processing for a few of our sites, if you are interested and you are wanting some of our stuff to promote out of the USA please feel free to hit me up anytime
174842541

It's not about screwing the foreign webmasters. It's about complying to the law. All affiliates of a company must comply. If I get traffic from an affliate that isn't complying I can be liable and my ass is in trouble. Read Steve Lightspeed's thread if he has affiliates breaking the TOS and he knows about it his ass could be in trouble. They will go for the money line.

Exactly, people dont realize that guys like Steve, Shap many others and including myself didnt just jump up and say "Hey let's screw everyone", we are forced to make decisions based on a Legal system, and fall into a much different bracket because of the fact that we have affiliates, affiliates who must do the right thing when asked to. It goes hand in hand with being paid on time and all the others responsabilities we take on when opening an affiliate program. Not every decision we make is based on our own choices, or personal views.

Quit whining already. Most sponsors that have post have said they will longer give out FREE hardcore content to use. Most have NOT said YOU personally can't BUY your own content and use that. So in other words what you are REALLY whining about is you no longer get a free ride and now have to PAY for your own content.

This was a good reading thread

Dude you don't seem to want to hear the answer, so the best I can tell you is just keep complaining, I'm sure it will change things [/sarcasm]. 2257 Most certainly states that if you plan on selling your shit in the US then you must abide by the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules then block all your US traffic and only use non US sponsors, it's that simple.

I remember the days (not so long ago) when there was no such thing as FHGs and content supplied by the sponsors... You bought your own.. or if you could "prove" yourself, the sponsor would let you use content from inside the site.... ahhhhhhh.. those were the days...

Congratulations, you learned about law.