WEBHOSTING & 2257 Let's Discuss...
 

As many of you are aware, the record keeping and inspection requirements of the Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act of 1988, 18 U.S.C. § 2257 et seq. (as amended) were recently amended by the Department of Justice. The amended regulations, which take effect on June 23, 2005, include a number of significant changes from the current regulations. Compliance with the amended requirements is likely to prove both complicated and expensive for providers of adult content.

Many customers have inquired about the impact the amended regulations will have on Webair. Webair does not maintain records under the current § 2257 regulations because, as an Internet Service Provider, Webair does not believe it falls within the definition of a ?producer? of adult content for the purposes of § 2257. The amended regulations include two new sections, CFR part 75 (c)(4)(iv) and (v), that specifically relate to providers of hosting and electronic communication services. As Webair interprets them, the new sections do not impose any new obligations on hosting providers.

As amended, CFR part 75 (c)(4)(iv) provides that ?[p]roducer does not include persons whose activities relating to the visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct are limited to the following: . .[a] provider of web-hosting services who does not, and reasonably cannot, manage the sexually explicit content of the computer site or service?. CFR part 75 (c)(4)(v) similarly excludes ?[a] provider of an electronic communication service or remote computing service who does not, and reasonably cannot, manage the sexually explicit content of the computer site or service.? In adopting these sections, the DOJ noted:

Twenty-four commenters commented that the exclusion of providers of web-hosting services who do not manage the content of the site or service is vague and may be under-inclusive because some services manage or control certain website content, e.g., advertisements, but not the sexually explicit content. According to the commenters, it is similarly unclear whether editing content only for copyright infringement purposes would constitute control of content. The Department adopts this comment. The exclusion of providers of web- hosting services who reasonably cannot manage the content of the site will be clarified to exclude providers of web-hosting services who reasonably cannot manage the sexually explicit content of the site (for either technical or contractual reasons).

For both technical and contractual reasons, Webair does not, and reasonably cannot, manage the sexually explicit content that its clients place on its servers. Accordingly, Webair does not anticipate any change in its day-to-day operations as a result of the amended regulations.

Let me know what you guys think...

finally :)

But if the DOJ told you to shut a site down would you?

and would you shut the site down if the customer is a non U.S. citizen ?

Good question...

Nationality is irrelevant.

Well.... the way out of this shit is to move my servers outside US to a non-US company.

It was really a mistake when I moved them to US only 7 months ago...

Gator / tradermcduck - I can't say they couldn't, but there's no provision in 2257 that would allow them to order a host to shut a site down. I would imagine they would contact the site owner directly if they were operating outside of the guidelines set forth.

megatgpdotnet - Moving your server outside of the US is not necessarily the solution, as if you are a US citizen they can still come after you legally, again if you are operating outsidde of the guidelines of the regulations. Where are you incorporated?

are you guys planning to have offshore hosting options avaliable.

We already do and are planning to expand it..yes

But like i said previously that is not the endall solution here for most of those effected.

So the answer to this is YES?

No, I don't think it would be within my rights to do so. Again, according to the guidelines as they stand now.

This comments section addresses that question directly:

Twenty-four commenters commented that the exclusion of providers of web-hosting services who do not manage the content of the site or service is vague and may be under-inclusive because some services manage or control certain website content, e.g., advertisements, but not the sexually explicit content. According to the commenters, it is similarly unclear whether editing content only for copyright infringement purposes would constitute control of content. The Department adopts this comment. The exclusion of providers of web- hosting services who reasonably cannot manage the content of the site will be clarified to exclude providers of web-hosting services who reasonably cannot manage the sexually explicit content of the site (for either technical or contractual reasons).

The DOJ gives you a supeona demanding you shut down a non-complying site you are hosting and you are going to refuse?

That just means YOU aren't going to get in trouble if the sites you host don't comply with 2257. It doesn't mean the DOJ can't make you shut them down.

I'll be hitting you up so I can get my plan changed within the next couple of months....I want my server off in Turkey somewhere.

Great! There are a lot of non U.S. webmasters :winkwink:

Exactly....

If you are incorporated in the USA you have to comply, regardless of where your server/content is hosted.

This is a whole can of worms

Again, there are no provisions within the new guidelines as of yet that addresses that they would be able to make a host shut you down. I would imagine they will be contacting you (the client) directly)

We (as a webhosting company) cannot be held liable according to the guidelines as we cannot reasonably manage our clients content as stated in our contracts.

Help me out here, Mike, but the way I understand it it is no different than if a customer hosts cp or beastiality on your server... they contact you to check it out and if the customer is in violation you take it down... correct?

Everyone must comply with their 'statements', which is a part of the 2257. The rest, which has nothing to do with the hosting, is the personal record keeping that apply to only US citizens.
The host and registrar knows you are foreigner, so I cant see any problems with it as long you have a statement about who is primary producers/custodians.
Personally I made those statements for years, so whats the big difference?

In a nutshell yes =))

But theres more to it than just that...

Webair or any host based in the US does not have any alternative except to comply with the law. To the extent that Webair disagrees with the law, its policy is to advocate for change through the democratic process, not to engage in unlawful activity.

As such, to the extent that the Department of Justice, or any other government entity, has the authority to compel action by Webair, Webair will comply with its demands (as such with child porn).

As a practical matter, however, the circumstances under which Webair could be lawfully required to shut down a client's Web site are extremely narrow, and the recent changes to the regulations implementing 18 USC 2257 do nothing to expand them.

A can of worms that needs to be addressed...I don't think it wise to bury your head in the sand on this one =))

Just as I thought....
This is a great thread... I know a lot of people are confused, so glad someone is clearing it up for everyone :)

I think the most common misconception is the urge to move your servers offshore which is not the end all solution here.

I am beginning to get the feeling that some webmasters think hosting companies will police 2257 themselves.

Unlike CP where the physical evidence can be seen by the Hosting Co, 2257 will require a little more than just hearsay to justify account closure.

Overseas webmasters currently hosting in the US might be better off letting a little more water pass under the bridge before making the decision to host offshore.

I love you Mike! Thanks for the info.


:)

Nice thread from Webair, trying to shed light on a sensitive issue.

I myself am Canadian. I decided 2 months ago ( getting stupid comments from 12shits - this is an oxymoron ) to move my sites to a Canadian server ( very happy with it, as cheap and fast as the US ). I chasged billing to my Euro processor. I will not use anymore my US corp for adult.

This doesn't make me bulletpropf, but it makes me much safer. :2 cents:

Only my :2 cents: worth Dopy...

Much as the vast majority of webmasters would totally agree in the protection of children (the purpose of the act in case we have forgotten *s*), - the amount of record-keeping is beyond rationality. Example.. I already know we don't use imaging of anyone under 18 - it's even safe to not waste time looking at images of 30+ milfs with big tits to see there is no way they are remotely near 18 or less.

On a more personal angle.. I already found it offensive that no action has ever been taken under the 90's version of 2257 to protect children. It smells :-)

BUT.. on a wider scale, we are currently concerned about 2257. This is not the end of laws in the pipleline. Probably the next is going to be the second try (probably will pass!) at forcing ISP's to disclose client data to the US DOJ.
There are more of a similiar vein being contemplated.. and a possible next, is "it shall be a felony offense to provide incorrect data on a WHOIS record".

When you combine all this legislation, in effect, there is one hell of a lot of control over adult webmasters and all tools are in place to then seriously attack the industry - it has nothing to do with child protection :-)

For a combination of these reasons, that is more than enough grounds for terminating all hosting/biz dealings with the US.

One of the main benefits of being net orientated is that you are free to make choices regarding jurisdiction and which laws you prefer to operate under. Since the US is now an unfavorable location, it's thinking time :-)

Who's your Euro processor..? And how were you able to be approved without a principal living in Europe..?

turboangel - I love you too!

directfiesta - We offer solutions both offshore and within the US. <<IMHO!>> US bandwidth, both speed and reliability wise is unbeatable at the moment...and i say "at the moment" with much confidence that it will not be this way very long :) With that said I'm curious to know if you abide by 2257 regulations anyhow to some degree?

Thank you for initiating that thread webair! :thumbsup

Yea.. can only speak for myself, but yes, we do comply with 2257 as it was, - but probably a stage more than the act required.

It was an act which, although just a US one, - it was adopted as a standard for the protection of children by webmasters elsewhere.

I haven't understood this thinking either... The hosting companies don't police spam.. they don't police copyright violations.. they don't police CP... They need someone to report it to them.. And in the case of a porn site, unless it's missing the 2257 statment, there is no way to show that the owner of the site isn't meeting all the 2257 requirements. Unless of course the DOJ shows up, inspects and then goes to the hosting company. There's too much panic and not enough thinking going on regarding this 2257 issue.

Dunno what it will be yet - I ain't a lawyer - but we will not be hosting within US jurisdiction and not have a "2257 link" as such, but a legal one to replace this. It will refer to 2257 and some laws of other counties concerning protection of minors. We are not going to claim we are complying with the current 2257, but have no problem complying to the standards of 2257 prior to this amendment.

I agree that moving offshore is not the end all solution, but it's a giant step in the right direction.

Anyone with half a brain that knows anything about international law should be less worried about 2257 and more worried about .XXX.

Agree DWB! :thumbsup

Stuff that xxx problem in the box of near-future-nasties! If there is "contamination" by vested interests on this issue it's going to be fun :-)

who is the canadian host you are using?

I abide to this day 2257. All models ARE over 18. But I myself shot stuff with the models ( canadian) providing @ ideas such as a student ID and a gov issued healtcare ( both with pictures). I have pics of them holding them besides their face. I have releases, but I don't know if I am allowed to release the pwersonnal info to third parties.
I also have tons of Euro content, some from before July 1995 that I have a contract, but no documentation; after 1995, I have a clause that THEY have the release. A lot of these corp dissaoeraed, folded, merged, threw out their stuff ....

So basically, I am SURE without the shadow of a doubt that I will have ONE scene or pic of old fucking bitches with NO documentation ... So here I go for 5 years .... or spend a fucking fortune...


I am very happy with my Canadian Data Center for my adult stuff.
My mainstream stuff and clients are for the moments at DN in NJ.

That should clear things up ...

where do you live? where do you make your money? if you have a company where is it incorporated?

Was thinking the same webair!! :winkwink:

Ah.. BTW, forgot to ask directfiesta what his bank balance is and what he had for breakfast!! :1orglaugh

Info that I will not post here. Don't need the bunch of clueless spammer kids to swamp them.
But if you really want to know, only because I like you pic in your sig, I could consider. BTW, they are located in the most loved country by Americans :1orglaugh

ICQ: 126069733 ( hate that shit tough )

:thumbsup

And if I had a dump this morning...

What is it with the Americans of today ????

Oups forgot:

" You ar either with us ( or like us ) or you are with the terrorist ( or child porn )....

I Started in the adult business in 19?? ... Sorry, no typo ... So I probably changed the diapers of many kids here ....

I have other business ventures outside " adult "...

Read my first above post:

- I will NOT use my US corp for adult ---- > that takes care of your 3rd question

- Where I make my money??? I said I had switch to my Euro processor ---> so I would deduct in Europe and on the net ... If you are thinking about the US citizen and the bla bla bla , you are dreaming in technicolor....

- I am Canadian. Tough I could and will live in another country, for the moment I live in Canada....

My cock is circumsized, don't use viagra, prefer women with a bit of meat, love sushi and fine wines, have an adorable cat, collect art, use to collect antique cars, have property for sale in Pompano, go bicycling, rafting in spring, love to read, and so on ...

Hope that answers all ... :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

22257 and being a host
 

To the webair guys thanks for starting this. Competitor or not we all share in this issue, and in combination with the new XXX TLD a lot of scary stuff is affecting our industry. Hosts and ISP's alike have been visitited by the FBI, Secret Service and others. Peronally at OC3 we see our adult clients like we see our mailer clients (legal ones), if you are providing a legal service, then we do our best to keep your account, your bandwith and your servers up. 24/7/365. We are an ISP, not just a host so they visit us early and though we are not outlaws, we don't bail. Will be honest, we will give a contact name, we always do. The same name on the whois records, etc. we owe nothing more to law enforcement and as long as our customers are providing legal services it would take a court order for ust to shut them down. Oh one last thing, short of an elctronic and financial miracle it will remain very slow to for your US surfers if you host in europe. I am in huntington beachhere at 8 14 pm i just ran a trace from the netherlands over Level3. We all know level 3 is a good network and its their network all the way so no cross peering problems and the trace takes between 160 and 200 milliseconds. thats an eternity. That average. This will not change a lot. when we go Xcountry which takes about 70 ms we bitch. 70 ms is with bgp hops at a real minimum, where MPLS is deployed so that going from new york to la goes in 6 hops and not 18. Same from the land of the dutch. Much as others have mentioned, it won't stop you from being prosecuted if you live here and do business here. Every country will have itsw issues. Either way OC3 will continue to host our clients with the same spirit. If you within the bounds of the law, we will keep you up. People may have issue with hosting can spammers but if we know how to keep them up, we know how to keep you up.

I think talking about 2257 is for pussies...

I talked to some people in law enforcement that I have met and who work in cyber crimes devisions of National, State and Regional entities. None of them have heard of 2257 and the ones who have think it is a joke that we are all running around crying about it.

Agreed, the real problem will be .XXX

[QUOTE=directfiesta]I myself am Canadian. I decided 2 months ago ( getting stupid comments from 12shits - this is an oxymoron ) to move my sites to a Canadian server ( very happy with it, as cheap and fast as the US ). QUOTE]

Can you please email me the CAN host at info (AT) newbienudes.com