Am I a JEW? (controversy)
 

If you asked me the question, I'd say...

"Yes, yes, I think so."

My claims are...

1. A grandfather born in Russia, Jewish, and

2. A FEELING I have had all my life.



I'm from New York, I move my hands a lot, I get excited and my voice gets high.

I often remind people of Ben Stiller.

I admit, there are moments when I feel an INSUPERABLE difference between myself and legitimate Jews.

But, still, (and I can't explain it at all -- except through the below speculation), still, I WANT something in me to be acknowledged as Jewish by other people.

Here's my theory:

Judaism is, by most descriptions, a Religion.

It is an aspect of culture, passed via experience (nurture) and not by blood (nature).

But, is a Jew, REALLY like a Christian (for example)?

Another complicating consideration is that I was born and raised into a "Catholic" family. My dad's dad died when my dad was still young, and any PRACTICAL Judaism present in the lives of my father and his seven siblings died with him.

My dad (who lived in Colombia until he was 19), was, essentially, absorbed into the Catholic Colombian mainstream -- and so married a "Catholic" girl in New York.

They had me, I was baptized, and even went to Our Lady of Sorrows Catholic School in Corona, Queens.

But, when I got to high school, and met my first Jews, something sprang to life in me. I felt really understood, and the behaviors that I saw in my new Jewish friends reflected something I felt in myself.

To this day, I would say that my very BEST friend (with the exception of my wonderful 3rd wife) was a Jewish kid named Gil Fisherman I met in the 10th grade.

Gil lost his mind in his late 20's, and we lost touch.

But, after high school, and for the rest of my life since, I have moved in the world among people, in school, at work, in public, FEELING and BELIEVING a TRUTH of Judaism inside myself.

And so, the question before you is...

Am I Jew?

But, before you answer...

Let's run a hypothetical genetic experiment.

We begin with a population of *gentically homogeneous* individuals -- by which I mean, every genotype element expressible as some observable phenotype element is present at its mean value across the population.

That is the beginning point.

The second given is a mutative tendency across the population of 10% -- meaning that one in ten births (or, more precisely, one in ten fertilizations) results in a mutation that introduces a never-before-seen geno/pheno attribute into the population.

As with all mutations, those that occur in the expeiment have the capacity to resonate favorably with environment, and become advantages.

The third given is the presence of a cultural influence (based in ritual, idelogy and transferred history), which, in addition to cultivating a separateness of lifestyle (for the pervasivness and importance of those rituals, the intensity of that ideology and the vibrancy of that history), also results in a very low rate of "marrying-outside".

After, even a FEW generations -- much less thousands of generations -- wouldn't there come into evidence some GENETICALLY-DETERMINED attributes, which, for having been segregated within a reproductive pool defined by external culture over a long period of time, become EXCLUSIVELY ASSOCIATED with that external culture -- such that a person, like myself, who never went to Schul, or studied Hebrew or had a BarMitzvah, could be Jewish enough by BLOOD (whether or not his mom was Jewish) to both FEEL Jewish, and BE Jewish, on some essential level (nature) which the circumstances of his birth and life (nurture) could never suppress?

Thoughts?



j-

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Pol-jew2.jpg

is that your grandfather? if yes, then YES yer a JEW

Jewish people are cool :bowdown :2 cents: :party-smi

still got your pepe flap?

Yes, I do.

I must confess, It has caused me great reflection on the question: "Where does Judaism live?"

Is it on the tip of the penis?

Is it in the heart?

Is it in the Soul?

Is it in the Blood?

I guess that's what I'm trying to find out.


j-

if you feel it, then believe it !

Anti-semitism, well, specifically, the experience of anti-semitism against oneself, is NOT something I'm acquainted with.

I guess, for the "Judaism" in me being so questionable, so equivocal, I've never felt the sting of hatred on that count.

But, I HAVE self-loathed for other reasons, nonetheless.


j-

Jews live very interesting lives.

I believe there are two types of Jews: 1) those who follow and worship the religion of Judaism and 2) descendants of the Hebrew people.

I would think for either type, one way to confirm someone's identity as a Jew would be whether or not other Jews accepted them as such.

:upsidedow

Do you feel the over riding necessity to persecute Palestinians and all other Arabs? If the answer is yes then you are a Jew

Just by looking at you I thought you were Jewish.

My two sister's parents are my father (Christian gentile) and a Jewish woman. She participates in Jewish rituals such as Bat Mitvah. The whole family went - from both sides of the family. From what I understand - the rituals are important to her but not the religion itself. She might even believe in Christ because of my father. I am not sure. Now, is she jewish? If someone were to ask me if she were jewish I would say "partly".

Its not all well defined but does it have to be?

you are jewish if your mother is i think this is the rule!

Like a desire to be accountants and bankers?

That`s right

Yeah, that's the common rule. But what if your father is Jewish, your mother a Gentile and you follow all the rituals and beliefs of Judaism?

Jack, if it's any consolation, I thought you were a Jew the day I met you in person in Santa Monica!

:)

Personally, I'm Jewish, had a Bar Mitzvah, and participated in all the holidays growing up BUT always felt pressured to be there. I've never really felt a "draw" to Judaism. The moment dinner or whatever event was over - I just wanted to go and hang out with my friends.

My wife comes from a Catholic family but neither she nor I "practice" religion. There's more of a spiritual essence to our family. Not in a wacky "new age" way though! LOL

Our children have been exposed to both Jewish and Catholic holidays, however, we havent overtly stressed the relegious overtones as much as we've celebrated the holidays and explained them in a pseudo historical manner so they have an idea of WHY the days(s) are signifigant.

:2 cents:

No, I don't.

And that's funny, because I'd say that Zionism (or any notion of Israel as the entitled "Jewish State") is wholly separate from the Essential Judaism I'm wondering about.

An unyielding, inflexible political position based in blind dogma (which, therefore, precludes any possibility of rational compromise) is just a bad thing -- whether you apply that assessment to the Palestinians or the Israelis. :2 cents:


j-

Now I would have never in a million years pegged you as Jewish Jack. Italian, Middle Eastern even Mexican but not Jewish. But let this lineage chips fall where they may... :winkwink:

convert and find out. if its not for you, you can always unconvert

Who cares. Good for you.

I dont understand when you ask someones nationality people respond with Jewish, isnt that your religion??

i luv ya anyway jack....religion is the bane of humanity though

If Jack isn't Jewish by religion he's at least Jewish by culture.

I agree with this, Brad.

When religion is propagated via books, formalities and rituals, it is no different from any other IDEOLOGY -- like Capitalism, Communism, Objectivism, etc.

Ideologies are on the list of things people use to separate themselves from other people, like Race, Nationality, etc.

And when people separate themselves into groups (which is ALL our history indicates we've EVER done) we hate, we dehumanize, we kill. At the bottom of it is FEAR OF DIFFERENCE.

This tendency is probably what makes me saddest about our species.

The potential HORROR of religion is that, for it's claim to Divine (and, therefore ABSOLUTE) validation, it sometimes let's people do terrible, terrible things in the name of God -- without any guilt or moral introspection.

Basically, the degree to which religion fosters a feeling of absolute entitlement and righteousness (overriding the basic humanity of others) is the degree to which religion is evil -- history is also full of tragic examples of this.


j-

I'd say if you had to ask yourself the question, then you're not.

Dude, you think if his grandfather was a nazi, then he is a jew?? :error

I am a practicing jew!! I can only say what My rabbi told my aunt(non jew) when she went to him for conversion classes.

Despite jewish law. True Belief comes from your soul. Follow it no matter where it takes you. My aunt has been a practicing jew now for 17 years. I would consider her more a jew then many that were blood born.

man, don't you see a nazi soldier and an old jewish man there?????????? this was an antisemite disgusting joke.............

I met Jack on JewishFriendFinder.com :winkwink:

my girlfriend met her girlfriend on SexSearch.com

Yeah I know, where is my referral % hehhehe

There is a lot of interesting posts here. I'm a bit in the same boat. My father is Jewish but my mother comes from a Catholic family. I grew up in a 95% Italian neighborhood where there were NO jews. I didn't really met my first jewish friend untill college. I've struggled with what I am all my life. I celebrate all holidays and I go to both church and temple. I can honestly say I don't think I am either when it comes to the beliefs behind the religions. But I would say I am both when it comes to family and traditions.

To be honest, I think religion is something that has hurt man kind more than it has helped. There are so many people that have died because of it. It causes seperation, hate, and war.

The biggest reason I like the Jewish family is because of the family. They put family ahead of everything and I like that. I have a huge warm hearted family that will always be there for me. My uncle who is Catholic, treated my brother and I as well as my mom differently because my father was a jew. We have no relationsip now and that is a shame, all because of a religion.

All in all .... I am a true believer in one thing. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. If you live your life like that, you can't go wrong. It does not interest me what happened 1000, 2000, or 3000 years ago. Stories get changed as time goes on, and I find it hard to believe that religious stories haven't been altered over time. Who knows what the truth really is. What is important is NOW and the FUTURE and making our world a good place to live in for our children and grandchildren. Stop spending time reflecting on history and arguing about it and spend that time making our planet a better place. If you do that, you will move on to bigger and better things.

why did jews kill Jesus ?

b. the heart.

Well I guess it all boils down to how many angels could dance on the head of Hitlers pin...

You always come up with the most interesting conundrums, Jack, I will give you that.

You just might like jewish people and see yourself the same way, doesnt mean your
jewish as well.

What if later you meet some other different group of people you really like and feel close with and you feel complete with them. Are you gonna think of changing to whatever they are?

you are jewish if your mother is jewish, which part you dont understand?

That is just a tradition. New traditions are arising today as intermarrying becomes more common. I know people with a Jewish father and Gentile mother who follow the Jewish traditions and consider themselves to be Jewish. Many such families exist today and celebrate both Jewish and Christian customs.

Maybe you would deny such a person their family heritage but their temples are not.

People do that. My aunt married a jewish man and converted to Judaism. Later, after they divorced she became a Christian. Whatever makes someone happy is cool with me. Why should we care?

Nofx manages to out do himself again...fucking idiot.

I don't think so.

And I'm not thinking of "changing" anything in myself in response to my affinity for any group.

This is about having RECOGNIZED myself in Jews.

My thoughts about Judaism go deeper than just "getting along" and "feeling at home".

There are things in me that I could never account for when I was a kid. I NEVER fit in, there seemed to be no cause-and-effect relationship between what I was and the people and circumstances that had made me.

I don't know how "Jewish" my dad feels. I've never asked him. But, I'm going to speculate that, for being an immigrant to the US and a very ambitious self-made man, he probably never had the time or luxury to wonder about ORIGINS.

I've been blessed with the opportunity to step back from the pressing urgencies of survival, enough to wonder. I've been wondering for a long time.

The only way I COULD BE Jewish (in any degree) is if some amount of GENETIC JUDAISM (which carried with it both the behavioral earmarks of a Jew and a discernment/affinity for the Jewishness of others) is present in me, by way of my Jewish grandfather.

The basic question I'm articulating here is: IS THAT POSSIBLE?


j-

I know what you're asking and most people would probably say no. However, if certain genetically determined attributes become - as you say - exclusively associated with "jewishness" I would say yes. However, you still have to learn that that association exists.

Basically, your question is -- Is Culture intrinsic or is it acquired or is it ASCRIBED? Regardless of whether it is intrinsic or acquired (differing social situations/societies place differing weight on these), culture is always ASCRIBED. ie., if other people see you as being of a particular culture, you ARE of that particular culture. This is an OBJECTIVE standard that is the basis of antidiscrimination jurisprudence in the USA. There has to be an OBJECTIVE element.

Cultural identities change over time, language can vary, physical markers may change as well, but the process of ascription remains the same.

Is that possible? I say yes. Well, in reformed jewish faith we do not believe in heaven. We believe when you die your soul lives through the people you leave behind. We name after the dead for that reason. Were you by any chance named after your grandfather? So if you can beleive that a part of them ends up in the hearts and minds of those they left behind then why not.

Jews by ansectry are pre disposed to certain diseases like Tay-Sachs which is genetic so why can you not be genetically predisposed to the culture

2HousePlague,
Thats so funny you say that. I was raised in a christian family but just found out a year ago that my grandfather whom I have never met is Jewish. My family and I have a lot in common with Jewish people especially when it comes to business. I however do not consider myself Jewish, I wish i was but I am not. Its my opinion that being Jewish either requires you to be rasied as a jew or to strictly follow their ways and If you dont you are not a true Jew.

I have so much respect for Jewish people. I find their business knowledge very interesting. Did you know 80% of the U.S money is controlled my Jewish people but yet they only make up for 2% of the population? They own every major media outlet in the world, control all the diamonds in the world, they control many banks, fortune 500 companies, etc...
Im not sure how they do it but if you want to read more about how powerful the Jews are check out The Jewish Phenomenon - By Silbiger, Steven

Religion often drives human beings apart and starts wars.

Don't let your view of yourself be limited by your ancestry.

You should determine your own religion. Shape your own life.

I think his right..

It shouldn't be this coplicating.
YOU ARE WHAT YOU MAKE YOURSELF INTO.

Simply, no. Judaism has never been a race.