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Got Ethics?
Just got done reading this thread http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/cgi-bi...1&topic=007591
and the tactics that the dialer in question is using have got me really confused. They are stopping people from accessing sites once they download and install their dialer, and some people are defending that?? A lot of people are complaining that conversions are dropping etc. It seems to me that more and more we are seeing practices used by some adult programs that are questionable at best. I am not just talking about dialers. People saying that porn is being given away for free too much. I dont even want to try to get into everything that is being tossed around. I see that some people think there is no place in this industry for morals. But I personally think that if you have no morals, how can you have any ethics? It seems that some want to think that "as long as I am making money who gives a damn". That is a pretty fucked up thought in my opinion. Sorry for rambling, just think that ethics and morals are needed in ANY business. And probably needed even more in the adult industry because of it being something that is not "accepted" by the mainstream. Balljoints |
I agree with you. I look at this as nothing BUT a business. In my opinion it is hard to "Govern" some practices in this biz. Also it is international which makes it harder to regulate. People are hungry, they are trying anything at this point.
On another note, I have never seen as many cheaters as I have in the past six months. I am banning idiots left and right, then they have the nerve to email me and ask "Whats UP"? I have also seen cheaters come to the board and bitch about picky tgp's. Well they can bitch all they want, Its my TGP and I'll do what ever the fuck I want with it. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif ------------------ Hot Tropical Babes ~Orgasm Donor~ |
I agree. This industry is gonna shoot itself in the foot. Constant spam, pseudo-virii dialers, autobookmarks, console hell that crash browsers, etc. - it's all gonna change public perception for the worse. Once public perception and media views change, no longer viewing online porn in the same ranks as Playboy, but rather akin to 1-900 numbers, the government will be able to walk in and do what they want.
It's already started. Mainstream media used to report feel good stories about a housewife-turned-tycoon when she started Danni's Hard Drive. Nowaways they report about the 15-year old son of Joe Blow who rang up a $112 phone bill off a dialer. Think the public, whose getting drilled with daily spam from xxx sites, is gonna get in an uproar when the Feds go after online porn? I don't. Common argument from porn webmasters has been "we can regulate ourselves, we don't need the government to step in." I have trouble believing that at times. It would be nice to see a trade group formed, with webmasters and sponsors alike paying dues and following some established practices, with membership necessary prior to allowing new affliates and affiliate programs into the 'mainstream' online porn biz (providing at least a nominal barrier to entry). Dues used to pay a small staff whose purpose is to work with the press to improve public perception and regulate cheating/unethical practices. Far too fragmented an industry and too many large egos around to see it happen, but it would be nice. |
Tucks... I'll support that idea!
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As long as its an international group that has dues that are affordable to those in less well off countries then I think is a great idea.
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I am with you tucks, there is nothing like a good Union to whip a business into shape. I think you are onto something, this should be discussed further for sure.
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I hate the word Union but it is getting worse if you get sponsors on side it may work.the next 6 months will be interesting.
Bake |
i know for a fact that it ain't the
telco web dialer,,,as i use 3 different PC's and this mysterious pop ups only on one PC... orginally i thought this was comming from ICQ,,,but later i proved it wrong because it happened when my icq was turned off ------------------ ------------ Playa icq#38147712 Got a Black site or category? Get a Black Dialer!! www.NoBSdialer.com |
Some very good points made. I think a lot of it boils down to "stop giving the store away for free" If there was no free porn so easily available, webmasters wouldn't have to rely so much on unethical tricks to make money. Why is the internet the only division of adult entertainment that gives it all away. Do magazines? Do videos? No. You have to buy the product. Yes, if you buy an adult video, you may see a teaser for another film, and most print mags will give you an idea of what's coming in the next issue and that's what we should be doing.
Teasing, promoting and selling our sponsors. Not making galleries with 50 pics on them. Not having TGP's that are surfer friendly and webmaster hell. TGP's should be like an adult bookstore with the magazines lined up on the rack, but they are wrapped in plastic so you have to pay if you want to look. You can see the cover and see the descriptions of what you'll find inside, but that's all. And that's what galleries should be, the covers. That's why i think TGP is a much better idea for business. If people would realize what the object of your business is, there would be a lot more signups and less unethical behavior. Unfortunately, it would have to be an industry wide move and I don't see it happening. I think dialers have their place, expecially outside the US, where it's harder to get a credit card accepted, however, I do believe that the user must be made fully aware of the cost. This other bullshit, like auto bookmarking and the like will help bring the industry down. If the print and video media can do it, why can't we? Red ------------------ <A HREF="http://www.eroticopy.com" TARGET=_blank>Eroticopy The Original adult copywriting service</A> Because porn does not live by pics alone |
I wonder whether the people that make the most, over the longest period of time, are the most ethical, and the unethical ones are those that perhaps make more money in the short term, but actually less in the long term? http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif
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Maybe there should be some kind of union that adult webmasters can join with a set of of set regulations to go by and it would also be there to protect you.
I don't know. Just a thought. |
A trade group and a union are very different concepts. Unions exist to provide collective bargaining power and protect the rights of individual members (webmasters in this case). A trade group's purpose is to ensure the public perception of the industry and consumer confidence remains high, and that it's member base does nothing to damage these assets.
As an example, a sponsor cheating a webmaster would not be an issue a typical trade group would handle as it has little to no impact on the general public. A webmaster spamming a sponsor's program would be an issue for a trade group as that practice damages the industry's reputation. An internal program to monitor members actions, something like a credit rating system for webmasters, sponsors and suppliers, would be something that could be added once a trade group has been established. I might try to draft a white paper on the topic and see what folks think. |
We'd go along with a trade group too. Getting rid of the undesirables who ruin this business by doing more and more to gain links on tgp's up at the top. Where will it end? 500 pic galleries?? Their wives jetting around for personal sex favors? It's already gotten as far as tgp's charging for slots... As well as sites accepting galleries etc on non adult hosts. But then they say they don't accept geo or yahoo. Pretty hypocritical way of looking at it.
------------------------------- Quote from above post: Common argument from porn webmasters has been "we can regulate ourselves, we don't need the government to step in." I have trouble believing that at times. -------------------------------- All you have to do is read back thru this board... see the ones who claim that they favor self governing? Then when something comes to light that is wrong in their paysite or program whatever it may be, they are the loudest screamers using every lame argument under the sun, or demand it should have been privately discussed and even result in even lamer threats from lowbrow idiots. Anything to keep the $$ rolling. They are the short term webmasters. They are not only cheats but in some cases, criminals on some level. Ethics or morals always take a back seat when greed steps in. Just look at the 'fights' over uniques to raw hits. Who gives a d*mn how MANY ppl hit a site? Bottom line is do you get high conversions and are you behaving in some form of acceptable practice. It seems that acceptable practice has hit rock bottom. Someone will need to invent a way for those webmasters (loosely used term) to be able to come out of the surfer's monitors with a gun to rob them outright. It WILL take someone of the hun's stature to ever get this off the ground tho. Or this isn't worth the electric used to make it appear. So Hun, are you *really* all for it dear? Sorry, but as the only 'known' Union person here, I'm calling you out! hmmm, http://www.thehunrules.org ?? http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif It wouldn't take much for a fee to make this happen given the number of good adult webmasters around. 5-10 bucks per year but a stringent set of rules set and a emblem to put on all member sites index pages showing they are good standing members, but they'd have to be clickable to go back to a server somewhere to be validatable. (izzat a werd? lol)Just to keep the cretins from posting them illegally to spoof the surfers. |
We're in a numbers business, traffic, sales, ratios, and some webmasters have reduced people to numbers along the way, finding excuses for things they *know*, deep down, are just plain wrong. Would a "webmasters guild" help? I don't know. The ASACP banners make a clear statement, could another logo make just as clear a statement to surfers? It would certainly take time. I don't think some kind of membership fee would work, whoever was behind it would spend just as much time chasing subscriptions as they would chasing rule-breakers. This is something that comes up every now and then, but now might be the time to make something happen, at least to make a start. Who draws up the rules, though..? http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif
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Bump...
And Shunga, who makes the rules? Put them up for a vote is a simple way to do that. Fee? Small fees would be needed to cover the cost of paying people to actually RUN the thing. SomeONE would have to actually be spokesperson as well as a few helpers to pull it off. Chase subscriptions? Nope. The sponsors put it up on their TOS, and have it on their signup pages. Trade Affiliate number in this box. No number, no get to join. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif A first thing to release to the news people would be an announcement of this program. THAT would be a positive step showing that we intend to clean this business up. Not just sit around mouthing the words until someone else does it FOR us. Believe it or not, it will happen eventually if we don't do it ourselves for real. Surfers reading on such news sites as CNN and the like would be impressed with the members of such a group and might even encourage them to whip out those cc's more often. Knowing we aren't some little snot nosed 17 year old just waiting to get ahold of a cc number to go on a playstation game buying binge at their expense. |
Probably have to set the initial 'rules' with truly non-controversial things (thall shalt not use stolen content, thou shalt not spam, thou shalt not promote/reference CP, etc.). Once there is a greater number of members, more controversial stuff could be tackled to ensure a representative cross section agrees.
Preferably I wouldn't envision controversial items to come up much. Something like 90% agreement and it becomes a 'rule', 66% agreement and it becomes a 'preferred practice'. Would have to lock away personal preferences at times in order to ensure the highest levels of participation. This idea is a little US-centric, but I'd also like to see something whereby a portion of dues would be used to retain one of these first amendment lawyers. In the event a member gets arrested on obscenity charges or something similar relating to their online porn operation, a *knowledgable* lawyer will provide the *initial consultation* free of charge (as trade group has them retained). Not all webmasters can afford to retain one of these lawyers and I'd personally pay $25-$50 a year in dues just to know if I did unexpectedly get busted, my family or I could talk to someone who knows whats up. Call it "porn lawyer insurance". Also nice for the Feds to know if they picked me at random to hit, I'd have a top-notch 1st amendment lawyer advising me. Don't know how something like this would work across international lines, but assume it could be worked on. I really think something like this is do-able and would benefit many. |
This is all good and interesting, but if I may play Devil's Advocate for just a moment... isn't this somewhat similar in principal to the TGP2 theory? And will it not encounter the same hurdle (which has yet to be jumped) as TGP2? Specifically: I can fully envision serious webmasters not only participating, but eager to improve upon the whole thing. But how are you ever going to prevent 200,000 "Joe Snuffy Webmaster Wannabes" to go along with any of it and play by the newly invented "rules"? Unless, of course, you can somehow get all the content providers, sponsors, major player webmasters, hosting companies, and ISPs to enforce the hell out of it, there will always be somebody that is going to keep on doing the kind of shit you're trying to eradicate. You can Unionize all you want, but it's kind of impractical to go to every new kids house and cut their coax cable. The sad truth is they don't need a license or even a test to dial in, hook up, and start creating websites. All they need is a wallet and a little ingenuity.
And don't get all bent out of shape. I'm not flaming anyone. Just playin' a little Devil's Advocate. (my specialty) http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif |
It would be opt-in, you wouldn't have to join to open an adult site, and maybe you wouldn't even have to have an adult site to join. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif And I just don't see it working if people have to pay. The take up just wouldn't be great enough. Build it on the ASACP model, something small but visible.
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Hm, this could turn out to be really intresting...
But it's one hell of a job to get something like this of the ground. |
Exactly Deluxe. It would take someone already at the top of the heap like thehun or Lens etc to attract all of the sponsors in. And it'd be real easy to shove all of the wannabe's out that try to keep going. If the sponsors have to have a group ID number and the wannabe has none, then they can't gain access to BE an affiliate.
The attorney would be a great idea once things got going too. Retainer for them? Doubt it would be needed. A good attorney would recognize the value of being part of such a group to gather in other clients. Some sort of fee WOULD have to be paid tho. No one will work as hard as a spokesperson needs to for free. Too many hours are put in on that sort of job. Sounds like someones wanting to be a cheapie. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif Considering the numbers of webmasters that are serious, it wouldn't have to be a large amount tho. And no, it would never work with the BS attitude of preferred practices etc. Just look at tgp2... I demand a recip to my 100 hit a day tgp2 site. Pooh! You either vote a rule in or not. This is NOT a halfway measure that "perhaps" the surfer is safe on so and so's site. Does Helmy say perhaps we'll do something with a CP report to the ASACP? Or does he say we will investigate ALL reports to its fullest? Most sponsors already have rules, and some mix could be set amongst them for the basis easily enough. All they'd have to do is start with their two basics that's common. NO Spam and NO non adult hosts. Then add in the no auto anything, shifting homepages and the like. And then try to figure in the laws from the different countries. Such as the one US law we see broken all the time... It states there WILL be a warning page with NO nudity on it. It is us doing it or someone like A*****ft. Think he would take ANY half measures?? If you believe that, I do have some swampland reportedly dry and tillable. It will say so on the deed! Trust me. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/eek.gif |
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If it's going to work, it has to be widely adopted, and that won't happen if individual webmasters have to pay to join. I think it would only work if the sponsors financed it, and for that to happen someone like Lensman, for example, would have to be behind it. I wouldn't even have a single lawyer involved. The larger the organisation, the more it feels the need to do something at all times to justify it's own existence. Keep it simple. |
Putting it all on the sponsors wouldn't be fair. If say 5000 members paid 10 bucks per yr, a spokesperson could be gotten and paid for. Telling a sponsor they need to join just so THEY can pay alot more towards a salary isn't going to have them running in droves. They're feeling a pinch this summer as well as everyone else I bet.
And a attorney would be a must on some levels. We can't just start making rules that might not comply with existing laws on this sort of group. Just forming the group would take legal advice for the legalese in how the whole deal is set up. I don't think a lawyer would have to reword the rules per se tho. They'd be short and to the point. |
I dunno. I think this market is no different from any other. We can't make other people comply with any made-up rules, and anyone who tries risks a civil suit. I think the best we can do is try to run honest business that delivery value for the dollar and let the marketplace and the legal systems of the various countries sort things out.
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Again, it would be opt-in, you'd choose to follow the rules. If you broke them you'd have to take down the approved logo. For that you'd definetely need a legal agreement, with tough sanctions. But I don't think youd get something like that off the ground if you made it too complex. You're doing something new and untested. And who has most to lose from this industry's bad reputation? The big sponsors, and they have most to gain from a cleaner business, with surfers more likely to use their credit cards. I just can't see 5,000 webmasters, or even 1,000, paying an annual fee.
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You fail to see one thing... if the major sponsors make it THEIR rule.... who can sue civil or otherwise? They already have rules and no one is sueing them now. It is *their* right to disallow ANY person to be an affiliate. So all they have to do is to agree and it wouldn't have to be ALL sponsors. Just a hard core of them and the rest would eventually give it a try.
If you won't get off of 10 bucks then something is weird. Webmasters spend 10 bucks per tip at bars or conventions, yet that would be too much for a way to get the kids and jerks out of our hair? Bottom line? If something like this got going and you refused to pay a small fee like this? Simple answer, you don't and you get booted from any sponsor program you are in that says you have to be a member. You want to argue peanuts? Or make money? Every day that the scripts, activeX's and all of that go one hurts us more and more. There is no law saying that a sponsor can't make such a rule. And yes the rules would be very simple to follow. No need to make them hard to understand at all. And the sponsors already have cheater lists that could be dbased to weed out known serious cheats so they couldn't even join in the first place. |
Interesting..I'm a fairly new, YOUNG webmaster @ 40. I don't know many of you but I am definitely with the majority http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif I just have 1 question, Does this mean we can STRIKE for more money out of the sponcers? http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif
Just a thought hehe............. |
I'm kinda drunk, so bear with me. I just wanna say one last thing on all of this thread.
I got into computers and DOS and batch files, and programming, and figuring out how stuff works, then to graphics, and hardware, and discovered the Net and website making, and ultimately webmastering, waaaaaaaaaay back (in computer years here) in '93.... by reading ALOT of books on breaks from my regular job and figuring shit out the hard way on my own by way of multiple reformatting and trial and error on a crappy ol' 386 with a kick ass "Overdrive" cpu.... back in the day of good ol' DOS & 5 1/4 inch floppys. And do you know why? Because it was fastin facsinat fasdtinat... aw fuck it, it was cool to me and it was alot of fun. But recently it has become anything BUT fun anymore. Every day something new is invented to fuck somebody out of something, and that is truly sad.... for alot of us. I'm sure I'm not the only one that started out the way I did. But even worse, now we have to come up with all kinds of rules and regulations and unions and alliances and blacklists and god knows what else just to try and hang on to something we all once thought was the greatest thing since sliced pepperoni and cold beer. I know this isn't thhe kind of thing you would expect to hear from someone called "Amputte Your head", but I am deeply heartbroken to sit and watch day by day, the thing I thought was going to be sooooo cool 8 years ago, turn into the fucking swirling shtih9ole is it todday. I don't have a point... I'm not making a "statement"... I'm just very very saddened to see what has become of the Net. I would like to think I can conitinue and maybe make some friends along the way... maybe actually make a living someday with it... but the last few weeks have pretty much convinced me that maybe it's time for me to forget about this dismal failure called the Internet and get back to living a real life. Sorry.... like i siad... I'm drubnk. And I'll probaly wish I hadn't typed this in the morning... but "From the drunketh, the truth shall be cometh". ~ Amputate, Circa 2001 |
These are all lovely ideas and it's been something that's been talked about for as long as I can remember, but it's just not going to happen...As a sponsor, why should I have to foot a bill? Maybe I, along with other sponsors, simply close our programs to webmasters and just hire family and friends to build feeder sites?
I've always felt that an individual webmaster should decide for themselves what they can reasonably do and live with...if you don't feel comfortable with a certain niche, then don't promote it...don't like a certain tactic? don't use it. You also have to remember that there are people all around the world, all with different viewpoints and value systems. Also, who will oversee the overseers? What if those in charge have their own sites and agendas? No lawyers? sorry, as much as I hate lawyers, they are a necessity. My own lawyer has gotten me out of a couple serious jams that wouldn't have seen coming nor known how to get out of with him. Again, these are great ideas, it's just a MUCH larger chore to even think it can be done...it's been tried before... Besides, how well do you know your sponsors? How many make money from password sites? from spamming? from crossbilling? You might be surprised at the answer... heheh, I got a chuckle out of the post suggesting getting more out of sponsors...it'll probably start going the opposite the next few months...with sponsors paying less... ------------------ Evil is as evil does http://www.darkdollars.com |
I know that this will probably be an unpopular reply to this thread.
There are only two ways to truly address the need for a set of standards that could be designed to protect those of us that intend to participate in the business of online adult entertainment from those of us that choose to circumvent logical business practice in order to gain a "quick buck" from sub-standard practices such as those described herein. Both solutions would have to rely on a central regulatory committee that would dictate standards and principles of practice to be adhered to by webmasters in order to participate in a sanctioned program for adult sites. The first method would be based upon attraction, and the second method would be based upon exclusivity. As for the first system, a group could be formed, call it for lack of a better term "The Adult Webmaster Quality Guild". TAWQG symbols would be designed, and participating websites would have to adhere to a set of rules that would protect both Site owners and surfers from unfair business practice. "The Better Business Bureau" of the adult world would target sites that engage in unfair practices, embrace sites that engage in fair practice, and make it it's responsibility to educate the surfer and potential webmaster alike. This would take a great deal of funding for advertising, for staffing a group that would have to engage in the practice of insuring standards are adhered to, and would require a central database of approved and unapproved sites that could be searched through by surfers with the ability through administration to remove, add, edit and maintain this system. The second system would be one of exclusivity. Much of what is being discussed here in this thread will be dealt with by the inevitabitility of a world-wide regulatory committee that will be created and tasked to enforce whatever world-wide standards that are set on the adult entertainment industry. The day will come when world-wide government agencies will attempt to remove pornography from the web alltogether, or at a minimum to regulate them and require fees and standards just as if you were a bar and you require a liquor license to operate it. The problem here is one of morality and ethical practice. Do we really want to allow governmental agencies to censor our work? The only clear action would be to devise a group that would set these standards, and beat the governmental agencies to the punch by lobbying in countries around the world for legistlature that would "protect" both the consumer and the site operators alike. This would take a great deal of funding, organization, agreement and solidarity to pull off - but it would allow existing site owners the ability to dictate the terms of such regulation rather than finding ourselves waking up one day to the big brother mentality of world-wide governmental regulation. My personal choice would be the former, though I do believe that it is just a matter of time before the latter comes into being. The key point in all of this is solidarity. I would be willing to participate in, and offer my time to, a governing agency based upon the idea of the creation of an entity that would promote sites that would carry a symbol of excellence and warn the unwary surfer of sites that engage in unfair practices. I would have to admit that this would become a full time job, and one would have to create a not-for-profit agency that would engage in the action of world-wide promotion, advertising, application development, prosecutorial action against SPAM, against child pornography, etcetera and would not leave much time for the running of an adult site for profit. I, for one, am not here to make a "quick buck" but rather have chosen to leave my life as a succesful Corporate IT developer and attempt to build an organization that will stand the test of time, will feed my family, pay for the education of my children, and keep myself and my wife safe from the inevitable financial struggles that will face us in the years ahead while we age and pass from this plane of existence. I think people need to think about several things when discussing this topic. How big of a task are we really talking about and what type of resources will it take to run this? Will this lead to the inevitability of paid licensing to a governmental agency that will dictate who can and cannot operate an online adult entertainment site? Will any amount of publicity save those of us that cherish our reputation from the loss of income due to people that engage in unfair business practices and drive potential customers from seeking sexual gratification via cyber media? Who among us will be willing to give up being a profitable entity in order to undertake the large magnitude of politics that this will require to be succesful? Who will foot the bill for all of this? I will step down off my soapbox, and look forward to the myriad replies I am sure to receive via this board, email and ICQ in the near future. I agree something must be done, but what will it be, and who shall be brave enough to be the first? I am willing to participate, who among you will I be working with? Regards, ------------------ Midnight
Excellence is not an act, but a habit - Aristotle |
SyykBoy2, who needs to oversee the overseers? The sponsors already have rules. All that is needed is to add the no more auto this and that etc. And we're all equals in the whole thing.
So if someone oversteps or ignores then we take action to bring them in to compliance with the rules. Not that the rules have to be some huge list! Once something like this hits the media it would carry alot of weight with surfers. Sponsors that do not have the logo would be mistrusted to a degree over the ones showing they have nothing to hide by participating. We could eventually close out the idiots shifting hompages, altering ssurfers computer settings etc etc etc. How could they continue to do it? Sufers would be aware of the program and look for the logo. Never under estimate the power of the press. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif And sure its been talked about before. But did any of the big guys see that it's a serious thought amongst us? I'm betting this slowest summer in past years might rock a few more boats. <font color="#505050"> [This message has been edited by Gemini (edited 08-26-2001).] |
Good posts!
I still think any program like this would have to form via baby-steps. Lot's of things to address in online porn, but can't do it all at once. Start off small and non-controversial to gain as many members as possible. Make sure every 'group' has an advantage to gain by joining, i.e. webmasters get an initial consult if they find themselve in legal trouble, sponsors and suppliers (content/hosting) get to tag toss advertisements on emails when updates are sent to people, etc. Hopefully that could build a decent-sized base. No dues at the beginning, maybe suppliers pay a little to have ads in the initial emails. Once there's a reasonable-sized base, try and evolve it. Take the little bit of cash from the supplier email ads and hire a PR firm and ask them what to do to start. Maybe they send out a press release about the group and let the press know who to contact when they need quotes from the adult online community. That way, when they run a story about little Johnny who ended up getting xxx-spammed on his AOL account, the "Responsible Adult Webmasters", or whatever, can be quoted as condemning the practice. Maybe the PR firm says give some cash to a charity that fights CP. Ask the members to donate $20 to a pool and request donations for an auction. Maybe the PR firm can send out a press release about this responsible organization donating $20K to combat CP. Or maybe the PR firm recommends going another way... who knows. Hopefully this encourages the press to seek comments from the group. And if that manages to happen, further acceptance would be gained among the adult online community. Point is once a group is formed to this modest level, just a little work with a PR firm, someone speaking to the press, and coordinating the occasional goodwill gesture - it could start to look at the bigger picture. That could happen once the group has some acceptance in the online community and a large enough base to ensure many views are represented. Going from scratch to the "big picture" is a tall, tall, order. However going from scratch to simply organizing a structure to speak on behalf of the adult online community should not be Herculean effort. Take that first step, have the leadership that brought it to that point step back, and let the members know what the next objectives are and ask them to nominate and vote for the representatives that will take it to that level. So, in summary: Just get the damn thing off the ground. Don't try to create the perfect solution yet. |
Here's an idea. There seems to be some debate about the membership fee. I know there are much deeper issues that are involved, but some still seem caught up on fees, and dues.
I'm a proud member of the Screen Actors Guild (SAG). Our dues are based on your yearly salary, with a base fee. So if you didn't earn a dime all year you still have to pay a small amount (the base fee). I think it's like $48.00 per year. (That's $0.80 per work week) That .80 cents gives me dental, and medical coverage. The reason my fee is so low is because big time actors like Tom Cruise, or Nic Cage, pay huge fees, since for them it's based on a % of their yearly income. The beauty is, that they can afford it, because they made a ton of money that year. For the AWG (Adult Webmasters Guild) you would have a base price of $5.00 or $10.00 (If you can't afford $10.00 a year, you should really change professions) Once you reach a set amount you would fall into a bracket. If you make more than, 75K a year, and are in the union, and if that 75K a year was made thru the aide of the union, then you should pay a small percentage as your membership fee. (.75% or 1% to start with) I think you get the idea. But that's a small part of the bigger picture. I can certainly see the benifits of a union. I've enjoyed being in SAG thru the good times and the bad times. I would love to part of the AWG. But where do we start? What if the union was formed, and for the first few months membership was free? You would get a lot of people to join, with the knoweledge that after 6 months it will cost $10.00 per year. Once they join for free, and see the benefits of a union I'm sure most would stay and help recruit more people into the union. Just a thought. I wonder what most Adult Webmasters would think is the biggest advantage to being a member of a union? For me it would be a sense of community, and comfort in knowing that my fellow webmasters are practicing a certain level of quality, that I would hope will eventually be the standard in the adult industry. ------------------ <A HREF="http://usexfan.com/ebonypink/index.html" TARGET=_blank>RedShoe is: http://home.earthlink.net/~fxgrunt/g...fe-anim-01.gif </A> BoneProne Family Member |
This turned into a great discussion. The "union" type of idea sounds like a great idea.
Balljoints |
This is a wonderul discussion, and one that will hopefully lead to a trade group, or the AWG as it was called earlier.
As I see it, there are 2 important functions of this group 1. The moderating of disputes - I dont think enough can be said for a central, unbias, neutral group that is able to moderate and record disputes between its members. I think many people would sign up just for that fact. Its the idea of holding people accountable for their actions, and idea that is lacking from the adult industry today. 2. PR for Adult biz - A lot of times I dont think the right people are speaking when it comes to the press and the adult biz, a central group to co-ordinate press releases and comments would be invaluable. Positive press is dearly needed in this industry. There are already many examples of rules and regulations that are being set that many webmasters follow. I think it would be the AWG's job to co-ordinate those rules on the lowest possible level. If you take thehun as an example, he already has a list of sponsors that he wont accept on galleries because he doesnt believe that they practise business fairly. The AWG would take this same principal and extend it. So that all member tgp's follow these rules. You then enforce gallery makers to not have popups, auto this and that, then it makes the life of the tgp owner easier. The sponsor benefit is that more people will be willing to signup to their program if they have been approved by the AWG. As well, with a central group, cheaters could be caught easier and prevented in the future. As you can see their are benefits for everyone, the only people that it doesnt benefit are the cheaters and the scammers. Why wouldnt you join a group that is trying to uphold and protect a basic code of conduct? Because you have no interest in abiding by those rules. If anyone wants to chat about this or anything else, hit me up on icq. peace |
I certainly wouldn't want this discussion to become bogged down on the issue of membership fees. The idea of a percentage of a webmasters annual income is interesting, but I don't know how you'd enforce that, especially as this is a global business. I would personally prefer to keep it small, because then it has a higher chance of getting off the ground. We could have something up and running by the end of the week if we really wanted to. At some point someone has to make it happen. And we do need something like this. We need something to differentiate honest webmasters who are in this long term from the "quick buck" guys who are ruining the business.
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I'm curious about a few things....
for instance, what types of things exactly are you going to consider as being "unacceptable practices"? For instance... On my TGP, I use no consoles or redirection scripts at all, because I want surfers to keep coming back for more... however, on my AVS sites, I fully feed them into a "main" site via blind links and I also scripted their back button so that if they should choose to leave without visiting a sponsor, well, they're gonna go there anyway. Is this "unacceptable practice"? On a larger scale, WHO exactly is going to be the judge, jury, and executioner of someone that decides that type of scripting IS acceptable? I like this whole idea, but I do see a serious danger to legit webmasters choosing to use certain techniques by handing over all-encompasing power to one person or even one group designated as "Judge". I don't WANT to be judged and sentenced to "webmaster exile" on something someone else may see as unfair yet I see as perfectly fine. And I definitely see ALOT of problems arising out of this example. |
I had some graphics of the Hun-character as a judge... would have been approriate at this moment ;-)...
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This rule thing would be:
1) The basic rules that sponsors already have in place... 2) New rules would be voted on by the membership and a majority passes the rules. Basic rules to get voted on right away would be homepage hijacking, activeX (or other) scripts that add BS to bookmarks, desktops and the like. Trapping surfers just make them scream loder and those screams are the only words being heard at this point in time by the people that can pull the DNS on all porn if they have a mind too. How easily could the congress vote something in and it go to law within moments?? Very easily. Not too long back, they voted themselves a huge raise in 4am and it was law almost immediately. Don't you think they couldn't do the same to us. All it takes is a clear majority to by pass even the presidential veto. As long as they hear only the bad things.... Well you get the idea. CJ sites would have to be in their own niche within us somehow or another. As much as I do NOT like them, they'd have to be included in some form. Perhaps limiting the popups they use to prevent actual crashes would be an idea. If the majority of sponsors would go with us, we can and would limit the cheaters and scammers by using a central dbase for all of them to draw from. That in itself would save them extra $$. No more would some cheat get caught today and be back in 2 days with a new sponsor and the same scam. For having mediation on disputes, the rules would be clear cut for the most part. A suggestion there would be to vote in members as representatives from the different countries. They get a report of cheating from some source and they all drop over to see the page-site in question. If they all see the same problem that was reported, whether its content theft or whatever, they vote and the decision is made. We could manage to not only shut down cheaters etc quicker but, also increase our bottom lines and at the same time the surfers hearing GOOD things might make them pull those cards easier. And to show who is a real member of such a group, having a logo button on each of our sites that they can click to go to a page saying if we are a member or not. That cuts out cheats right there. Michael did you hear that?! http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif Programming would be needed to set all of that up. A dependable server as well. There are many more things to be discussed at any rate. While we don't want to tarry on an idea like this, we certainly don't want to rush it TOO quickly either. So talk to all of your friends and get them to read and stand one way or the other in here. We also need to hear from the sponsors! |
As long as your axe is present! We want people to know heads would roll!!
Email that to the people we need to talk with about breaking rules. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif |
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But if you are going to charge a fee to belong to this, the it becomes a voluntary deal and I think greatly diminishes it's overall effect not only for the amount of participating webmasters, but also sponsors which would be taking a serious cut in their participating webmasters if they must now pay to belong and promote a certain sponsor. Even though the price may be cheap... some simply won't give up that dollar for anything. I hope this makes sense.... ( it did in my head at least http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif )
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The problem with accepting CJ's is you'd have two standards, one for most sites, and one for CJ's. You can imagine the confusion for surfers. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif
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Still working on the cj thing. lol I dunno how to fit them in so if anyone has a thought... Personally I think some drug therapy to their owners might help! http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif
If a webmaster doesn't want to get off of ten bucks or somesuch small amount then maybe they don't deserve to BE adult webmasters. And I am sure there will be sponsors that don't want to participate so the cheapies will have content to continue with. They just won't have the benefit of the positive press that we could generate. |
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The CJ guys..., may have to make a completely separate division or classification or something, so that they may still belong in spite of the fact that most are doing the very thing we all roll our eyes at. Know what I mean? So they can still display the button or whatever it's gonna be, with maybe a text link under stating "Class II" or maybe just a completely different button.... then on the main site there can be a page of definitions explaining what Class I and Class II etc means. I don't know... just some ideas... |
For this to even be a viable option, it is going to need the backing of some major sponsors (ars,maxcash,AP etc) or it is going to be a small spinoff with no power to do anything in the short run(6< months+). It COULD be something in the long run if it started with a smaller initial membership of webmasters with 2+ years of full time service in the industry if it had some major backers like (the hun since he already volunteered http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif, and maybe 1 big sponsor or several smaller or middle/small sized sponsors that are known.)
It would be a little of an undertaking to begin with, but with the talents of this pool of initial webmasters it wouldnt be that bad to set up. Membership would have to be free to start with, or maybe on a donation basis for a little while until it got going. The initial cost would not be that great (probably need to be set up as a non profit corp, to be fair to all involved?) Costs for domain and hosting would be minimal, the major costs would be in time, but split the needs between many and it is more than manageable. I for 1 am with this and offer any services that I can offer to this project. Feel free to email me or ICQ 20023546. Just make sure to say who you are and what its about for ICQ so I add you http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif Better get this submitted now before this damn storm hits and I lose electricity. Balljoints |
Like I've said before, count me. I'd like to help in any way that I can.
If you go here, and substitute the word "actors" for "webmasters" it makes sense. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif http://www.sag.org/faq/ It's a link to the SAG FAQ page. Dig deep, all the answers to the questions we have, can be found here. Dues, services, fees... Another big advantage to the union is the member pool. We could set up a community, and link trades within the union. In SAG, or in IATSE (the union I wanted to be in) you can access the member lists, and contact fellow union members. Since everyone has a similar goal being in a union, you find that you have a lot in common. There is more, I went on, and on..., but I came back and erased it all. I felt I was rambling. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif It's just that I'm excited about this. This seems to be the next step to confirming our futures. Every major industry has a union except us. I think now is the time. ------------------ <A HREF="http://usexfan.com/ebonypink/index.html" TARGET=_blank>RedShoe is: http://home.earthlink.net/~fxgrunt/g...fe-anim-01.gif </A> BoneProne Family Member |
Gemini... the problem with voting is that although it sounds very fair the risk is that a majority (at the moment this seems to be the case) doesn't give a rat's ass about the surfer...
Although democracy is a great thing I think for a thing like this there should be a couple of people making up the rules, helped by votes of all members. |
Hmm, the few making the rules for the Majority... Sounds like the American Govt... http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/frown.gif
Sorry Hun, but a few Major people deciding how things are for the majority of the adult industry will NEVER work. That is why we need some major people and some people that are experienced and have some years of service in. For instance if some major sponsors had all the power (millions upon millions of unique hits a day) they would want everything to conform to what they think converts. If major tgp sponsors had their way, they could say that we should have 30 pics per page and 1 text link.... Neither is optimal for what is needed. Somewhere inbetween is needed. We dont want to give it all away, but we dont want to screw surfers with homepage changing, auto dialer downloads etc... So if we had a few people decide the rules, who would you suggest Hun? Balljoints |
Not true BJ... The Netherlands is a democracy. Still a government decides what is going on. Granted, the government is choosen by the majority. But read closely what I wrote about the concert for just voting... I think CJ is not good ethics. It's designed to confuse people. But if there are enough pro-CJ-ers in this 'group' I'm sure it will be close to impossible to regulate this thing... Although I'm very much in favor of voting on majority I know it will cause big problems in this case
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Ok. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif I agree with you there. CJ sites are another topic all together. The CJ sites are something that would have to go into a category of their own either off the main site, or not be included at all. I couldn't even comment on them myself because I have never run 1 and never would because I personally hate popups upon popups upon popups. Like some of the sponsors I use (trying to work them down based on customer service) And finding out that either they dont respond or respond and tell you that you are fucked on what you are saying http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/frown.gif
Balljoints |
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