Yes, but how many of you "adult webmasters" support your own future?
 

No, really, no joke here folks. A lot of you are professionals, and a lot of you claim to be serious about this business, but are you really?

<a href="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/" TARGET="_blank"><font size=+3><img src="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/bttn_anticensor002.jpg" HSPACE=5 border=0>|<img src="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/bttn_anticensor004.jpg" HSPACE=5 border=0>|<img src="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/anti_censor3.gif" HSPACE=5 border=0>|<img src="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/bttn_anticensor003.jpg" HSPACE=5 border=0></a></font>

Choose one of these buttons and place it on your index page, your warning page, your whatever page, but fly something that lets the world know that you support freedom of online expression and you won't stand for grandstanding tactics from greedy polititions that are using the "in the name of protecting the children" ploy to get a name for themselves, not to mention turning the internet into disneyland II.

Link buttons to: <a href="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/"><font color="#FFFFCC">http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/</a></font>

SUPPORT SOMETHING FOR CRAP SAKES -- too many of our sites are just "there" yet they don't stand for anything other than trying to make money, which is fine, but what about our (your) future? What about your right to freely conduct adult business online?

Ask yourself (before anyone comes on this thread and shoots themselves in their own stupid foot).... "what about my rights in the future to run my websites?"

...then place a button and email me to let me know your url, and I'll add your site to my growing list of smart webmasters that have the foresite to join a cause that is by webmasters, FOR webmasters. And, who will YOU turn to for help should your site ever fall afowl of the law or the government? Us? Then support the cause now, please, for your future. For OUR future.

Thank you.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 07-11-2001).]

ack.

Do you have to fucking scream it at us? Good god........... type a little quieter next time.......... you know the day I had and I'll go into Rude Bitch mode all over your ass........

*plugging my ears and leaving the room*

Fucker............

rotfl

Tam

------------------
May the Force Be With YOU!!
DialerHeaven-not just a reseller!!
You too can be Vectorized!!

MUCH BETTER.... I see you take orders well.........

------------------
May the Force Be With YOU!!
DialerHeaven-not just a reseller!!
You too can be Vectorized!!

From you Tam, I love taking orders. Hottest ass in the industry right there folks! Let's have big round of applause for TAM!

Tam, you and I both know that you are one of the few that has the foresite and awareness to join in support of this cause, and I applaud you for that too.

Onward.
And sorry for the original post, I forgot a "/font" "/b" tag in there somewhere, and an "=" sign. I must need a drink or something http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Anyone wishing to join, follow the instructions in post 1, then email me at [email protected]
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Why should I send my traffic to things like that?

This is just so stupid

Well CD I think they at least need their own domain name -- otherwise I'll be deleting those buttons in a few weeks when the link goes dead...

If they can't afford $15 for a domain then they can kiss my ass... I'd rather send my money to the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) which has a better reputation which goes all the way back to the BBS days AND they have their own lawyers ;)

Rod --

bite me bro. Heaven forbid you ever have legal problems with your adult website (if you even have one), you'll be no doubt asking for help then, right? THINK instead of opening your negative mouth and showing yourself to be an unthinking idiot. If you don't want to support this WORTHY cause, then don't, but why come on here ridiculing something that is obviously a good thing for us all?

Pete da fly --

the old "domain name thing" again? Give it a rest man, who gives a shit about having a .com? I run this site, I've run it since it's inception last year, and it's not going anywhere except to get bigger. All links to adult content are located on adult hosted pages only. Only the main pages and article pages are on my own @home account, because I had the space and I'm making use of it. Shaw@home has no problem with this site, why would you?

No, we don't have our own lawyers to work on behalf of webmasters, but what we DO have is the ear of a lot of influential people that are "watching" the site constantly. We are able to fundraise through various means, not the least of which is our growing network of supporting webmasters, and a few webmasters now faced with big legal fees have already been thanking us greatly for our help. Copyright infringement is one thing, but what about if some extreme religious group in your community suddenly takes a disliking to your site and sues you for obsenity? You KNOW you're not breaking the law, but yet there they are arresting you anyway, so what the hell do you do?

Again people, THINK before you dis this. I think that the large freehosts should support us, the large sponsors, and all the sites smaller and bigger that are adult-related, webmaster resource, or nastyass-fetish in nature. (right down to the nasty horror-f/x sites that some people really can't stand) We even have a category for non adult sites too, and the sites of mine that are listed are seeing a few steady targeted hits every day from this. U-CAN-2!

There's no excuse for not supporting this cause, it's not like it costs you anything except the few hits that click on the button here and there. Oh, OH, that's going to kill you guys? You're that hard up for hits? (not you Pete). YOU GET HITS BACK too! (duh) No excuse whatsoever. Just knowing that there are people out there that will work to assist your cause (should you have one) is enough for most smart webbies to add a measly button to their page.

If you really can't see your way clear to show some support, then don't. But please, don't try ragging down on my site calling it stupid, because you may be sucking and snivelling around for help YOURSELF in future (if you run an adult site) The EFF can't help everyone, they are pretty busy as it is, from what I hear. We are networking with them as well, and a few other good operations like "Injustice-Busters". The idea is a smart one, the question is "are you smart enough to see the worth of it?"

I'll say it again.... THINK.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 07-12-2001).]

Bump for crap sake. There is no ignoring this issue, it won't go away on it's own.


Band together or let that idiot in Washington have his way with you. Your choice.
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Good idea, but I agree with the fly. Invest the miniscule amount of bucks and get it real hosting, with it's own domain name. At least then when it goes dead it's because you've been hit by a bus and have been dead for a couple months, not because you've changed ISPs. Come on, it's just so mickey mouse to have something important like this on your ISP hosting.

Cheers,
Backov

------------------
AVSBlitz - Build AVS Sites Faster and Better

Well, I seem to be getting emails from sites that are joining, whether you guys like my url or not. I've had sites on freehosts since day one, and I ALWAYS run into a few guys here and there that try and nitpick about where my site is hosted, instead of focusing in on what the site is worth. I've never done this to anyone, ever. I have the wherewithall to spot the value of someone's site regardless of hosting. I only take issue when I see nude content on non-adult hosting, but even then I merely suggest that the person move their site to an adult freehost before I'll link them.

This site is a concept site with a purpose other than to offer pictures. It's not about money, we (my partners and I) don't have money to throw at this site, and the money we rais on behalf of any webmaster in need goes to that webmaster. The site is also about getting your viewpoint and the truth about your situation out there to the public. Do you think your local newsmedia will be printing your story word for word? Ha! No way are they going to allow a "pornography site owner" the chance to tell it like it is in their paper on on thier station. With this site, I WILL tell your story, the real story, and I'll quote you word for word.

Also, this is not a site that offers any sort of adult content. Even the links to the adult link listings has no adult content on them. The site simply works, it's doing what it's supposed to, and out of about 70 webmasters that I've spoken with, only 4 or 5 have had a bug up their ass about the almighty dot com. Why, in this day and age of supposed enlightenment are you so anal about this STILL? And why are you few so convinced that a HUGE worldwide outfit like Shaw Cable is going to go bankrupt and crap out my site? If they ever did, I assure you I'd upload it somewhere else, e-mail all the webmasters involved, and resume the fight. So... WHATS THE PROBLEM? I've got nearly 50 webmasters that have no problem with how I'm running this site, so could the problem possibly be..... you?
I think so.

Quite nit-picking the small shit and join the fight. Paid hosting has given webmasters as much or more grief than any problems I've EVER had with the seven free accounts I have with my cable modem service.
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cdsmith,

you have a great idea and you have a great site too. but i am going to go with the fly AND backov and suggest you get a domain name. If it's for our future, then you can afford to do this for us if we do this for you. you'll have a lot more members as well. Its important and it's also important that we know if you forget to pay your ISP charges, the site wont go kaput as well. isn't that fair?

------------------

So, let me get all this straight here.....

If I "forget to pay my isp charges" as you say, then the site goes "kaput", so why join, right? -- But by the same token, if you were to be dumb enough to forget to pay your bandwidth bill to your pay host, then YOUR site would go kaput as well, right? Then I'd be forced to remove your site from my listing, thus putting extra work on me, no? Is that fair? Why should I take the chance that YOUR site might not be there tomorrow?....wouldn't it be safer for me to just not list anyone because they "might" not be there tomorrow?

Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Next...

I get the feeling that some of you guys are "loving the vehicle and all it's features, but are afraid to get into it because it "might" crash." Whatever.

As I said in my initial posts, this site isn't going anywhere. When it's ready to be moved to some paid hosting, then I'll do it, but it's just getting started, and it's doing fine, AND it's accomplishing what it's supposed to. That is, to help webmasters in need. That seems to be enough for many, if it's not good enough for some, well, oh well. Is it my loss that you don't want to place a small button on your site in support of the greater cause?

Also, your "it's the least you could do for us" comment is uncalled for. It almost sounds as if you think you are doing me a favor by placing the button on your site and sending a few hits in support of the cause, when in fact it is ME that is putting in tons of hours of work on this site in the effort to show some solidarity among adult webmasters everywhere, and it is YOU that reaps the benefits of said efforts. Are you guy's grasping all this?? To say that you refuse to support the cause in the least little way because of cosmetics is just...wrong.

CASE IN POINT: IF you (any of you) should find yourselves in a legal or criminal battle over your websites, I am willing to do the following on your behalf:

A) Start a fundraising campaign to get you some legal assistance. We all know lawyers make all the money in such actions.

B) You will want to have an outlet (avenue) available to tell your side of the story correctly and fairly. I'll not only do this for you, but I'll make sure that dozens of other sites help do the same for you.

C) The quickest death I know for a webmaster under siege is misinformation in the "court of public opinion" and the cops know this all too well. That is why they hold press conferences after they charge you with whatever they can find to charge you with. This site helps you in this area as well, by countering the warped allegations made by the cops and the media (and they can be very warped).

D) Even during times when not much is going on in the world (rare), the site still constantly displays the message that censorship sucks, and that there is a positive movement that is steadily growing to fight those that would dictate what is apporopriate viewing material for all.

E) Finally, this site is an outlet for your frustration should you need it. Nothing gives you a shot of relief during tough times like having a place to go and rant about your accusors, and nothing spells relief like knowing you have a group of fellow webmasters that is on your side when it comes to freedom of online expression. (not even Rolaids)

If all that isn't enough for you, then don't join, it's that simple. As I said, this site isn't about show, it's not about flash and money, and a dot-fucking-com with expensive paid hosting isn't going to make it more efficient. So, in reality, the "least" I can do is to commit to you that, should you need me, I'm there for you, always, and that I'll put in the hours to maintain this site and run it like I do the rest of my sites. So, I should think that the "LEAST" you can do is show a tiny bit of support.

Good luck to you either way bro.
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I think your idea is a good one. But, for every user that clicks on my site and does not sign up, I don't chase them down and bash them for not using my service.



------------------
Midnight
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Excellence is not an act, but a habit - Aristotle

Midnight --

glad you approve of "my idea", but it's not my exclusive idea, I'm just taking it a step further than most. Nobody I call friend approves of censorship.

Your subsequent analogy is flawed however. I'm not chasing anyone down and bashing them for not "signing up" as you put it. Read my posts bro. This site is there for you if you should need assistance. That alone should be enough reason to show support in some small way. Do you understand the concept that it's there for you??!! I'm not selling memberships, I'm not asking for donations, and I'm not bashing anyone for not joining. I'm simply asking everyone to place a link to the site, and in exchange I'll add their link back in the list. Whether anyone here joins or not, no matter who you are, if you ask me for help at some point in the future, I'll help you.

I'm just a little bit miffed that so many of us seem to value our rights as webmasters to peddle porn and make money from it, all of us are wary of the antics of Ass-c-r-o-f-t et al, but how many of us have actually taken the least little step towards cutting the nuts off of the censorship movement? Have you?

Does anyone have a positive comment today? I could use one along about now.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 07-13-2001).]

I don't think CD Smith is bashing anyone for not wanting to place a link on their site....he's merely explaining that there really should not be so much signifigance placed on the .com issue...but on the issue of fighting censorship.

Think about it people....does a .com REALLY make you feel so secure?? How many crooked sponsors/programs out there have paid for a .com only to rip someone off...or to disappear over night??

And why should it matter so much if his site ends up not working one day?? Then you simply remove the link...

It's utterly ridiculous to ask for some kind of assurance that his site isn't going to dissappear...do you e-mail Adult SE's or Link Lists...or TGP's even and ask for the same assurance before you link to them??

I simply can't believe that people are sitting here trying to give him a hard time about his domain name instead of paying attention to the REAL issue.

If you don't like it, fine....whatever floats your boat and creams your twinkie *grins*

What you have here is a webmaster that is reaching out to other webmasters....offering to be there...to help you fight the best he possibly can..which is more than most other people would do for you, should you happen to find yourself in this kind of trouble.

He's obviously passionate about this cause...and dedicated to making it work. That combined with all of the things he said he would do for everyone should be what makes you feel "secure" if you REALLY need to feel secure.

Although the REAL thing you should get out of something like this, in my opinion, is to feel like you're doing something to aid in the fight against censorship....instead of sitting around bitching about it to your friends or whomever when something pisses you off....you can actually be doing SOMETHING about it....that something might not be real big....but it sure is better than doing nothing...

Think about it people....



------------------
-Wicked Temptress

Minds are like parachutes: They only function when OPEN


[This message has been edited by Wicked Temptress (edited 07-13-2001).]

Q

[This message has been edited by OK (edited 07-13-2001).]

Ok, here it is straight CDSmith - why should we support your site when we can link to the EFF, and support them? You haven't shown enough commitment to this site to even spend $15 on a domain name, and another couple (literally, a couple bucks) to put it on non free hosting. Why should we commit to it when you haven't?

Also, at this point in the life of your website/organization, I think your promises of help during crisis are probably pretty hollow. How many law firms do pro-bono work for your website? Now how many do it for the EFF?

Not to bash on you here man, and I hope this doesn't trigger another 3 page indignant reply, but I see no reason to link to this site. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

Cheers,
Backov

------------------
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Back off --

I'm done explaining what should already be obvious, to you. I'm assuming you're an adult, so I'm confused why my 11 year old nephew grasps the concept of supporting a worthy cause and you can't. Forget it, go spend your time on the other more useful threads here, like "post your picture". One of us obviously doesn't have a clue what really matters in life bro, not to "knock" you or anything.

Btw, can you show me where and how you are currently supporting the EFF? And, can you really have too much help in a crisis situation?

My claims of help are "hollow"?? I'm almost temped here to give you a hail and hearty "GFY" for that jackass comment, but I'll instead respond by asking you if you've spoken directly to those webmasters and individuals that are currently in unjust legal trouble (like Dr Don, Louise Reynolds, all of the clients of "Injustice busters", and the other half-dozen or so webmasters from all over the world including the UK and Australia) who've all benefited in some way big or small from this site? Have you? Didn't think so. Did you READ some of the stories we're following? What about the money we've already raised for their legal defense funds? Dr Don, for example, has received over $2k in monetary aid, which went towards paying nearly half of the recent bill he got from his lawyer for services thus far. You call that hollow?

3 page essay? Did you bother to read them? They weren't 3 page essays, they were answers to your negative nitpicking short-sightedness. I was hoping you'd learn from them, and come back here and show some intelligence, but oh well.

Anyone else wanna fuck with me? Or is there a few more like Wicked Temptress and Tam that actually have something constructive and encouraging to say? Btw, for those that submitted your sites to me in the last 24 hours, I've got your links up now, including your site WT (Wicked Erotica).

As usual, all the best to everyone, even the ones that don't have the foresight and insight to see when they are staring a good thing in the face. Call me when you need me.
Onward.
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I think you misunderstood my post. I was merely trying to state that it is easier to catch flies with honey. I applaud your idea, I just feel that perhaps your soft sell might need some work.

One of the hazards of being in the entertainment industry, from my background in the performing arts, is that no matter how well you present something - someone will take issue with it. Some may even take issue just for the sake of getting under your skin.

Robert Johnson was perhaps the greatest blues guitarist of all time, but he was packaged poorly. That did not mean that he did not have a deep and abiding faith and belief in what he chose to dedicate his life to. If people take issue with you not having a URL, choose rather to dedicate yourself to those who support you than to focus on converting those who don't.

I am going to look into your program, merely on the faith that you have in it.

Be Well,



------------------
Midnight
Midnight Ventures Partner Program
Excellence is not an act, but a habit - Aristotle

Does anyone wanna actually talk about fighting censorshit...uh, I mean censorship? Anyone?


Implying that the EFF is there so why should anyone support your site is like saying "hey, we have lightningfree, why should we use stynk?" or "hey, we have 1 site for reporting cp, why do we need another one?", or even "HEY, we have porncity bbs, why do we need GFY??" -- Are those actually questions that come from an intelligent human? My dog is smarter than this for christ sake.

To the dot com flock -- Would you or would you not appreciate some extra help if you ever find yourself the target of pro-censorship groups that have taken a sudden dislike to your brand of porn? Would you or would you not use any and all money we might raise in support of your fight for your rights (to partay)??

I think you would. But that's fine, keep on sweating the small shit, it makes you look "detail oriented"

Do you even have a clue what it feels like to BE the victim of unjust treatment by your country's government? You live in Canada, you're an adult webmaster, yet you seem oblivious to what is going on right here in our supposedly great nation. Well, the fact is, that I DO happen to know what it feels like, and I do know the value of having a good support system in place that is full of people that care.

Tell me, is any of this making sense to you? Still wanna whine and cry about a domain name?....or do you want to shut the fuck up and start helping me fight censorship? Your call, straight up with no shit.
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Midnight --

that's the point, I shouldn't HAVE to sell anything, and I'm not. I'm also not trying to convert anyone, or did you miss my earlier comment where I told a few here to simply ignore this thread and not join me?

If I can use this thread to open up even a few people's eyes about stopping a snowball before it turns into a killer avalanche, then all the nay-saying bs is worth it, for all of us. You just proved that, as you just said that you are now actually going to take the first step and go read the site and the issues now being covered therin. Good move.
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Again with the attacks.. I gotta write that article. I read all of your little essays, and I didn't take issue with them.

I am now taking issue with some of your little attacks. I addressed you civilly and all I get back in return is anger and bile. Don't they have therapists in Winnipeg?

I explained my point of view to you.. Several others in this thread alone have. You've called us stupid. Do you think that makes us want to support this program?

As for living in Canada and being oblivious - I am FAR from oblivious. As I have pointed out in at least one other thread, I KNOW this country sucks, and I am fleeing it shortly.

No one was saying nay to your idea, even though that's what you seem to think. I think I explained quite clearly what my problems with it were, so I won't go over it again.

Here's an additional one - why would I support an organization run by someone so socially stunted that he attacks everyone who questions his methods? The answer - I wouldn't.

Cheers,
Backov

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Show me were I called you stoopid.

I'm sure it's pretty easy to show me where I exposed some stupidity, but that's a whole 'nother issue. If my replies seem a wee bit harsh to you, it's mainly because this is a subject that hits rather close to home, and I for another am NOT "fleeing" the country because of a few assholes with badges. Fleeing...to what? where? Tell me where this utopia is.

No one said you didn't have a right to question my methods bro, but do I not have a right to refute some or all of your words. Let's get this straight right here and now, I started this thread to get right in the face of guy's like you that know this site exists yet you're sitting on your ass. (you still didn't answer me with regards to where and how you are supporting EFF). The YOU come on here and insinuate that my site is basically not worth a measly link to show even the SLIGHTEST support. You said straight out that my claims of being able to help anyone are hollow. You said a lot of other shit too, all negative in nature. Why? I have no idea, so I do some supposin' and such, and your little "3 page novel" comments are acceptable yet my replies fall in the "attacks" category?

Buddy, you'd be so lucky to link trade with a guy like me. I'm honest, I'm a go-getter, and I don't take shit from doorknobs. When you start making an ounce of sense, my replies to you will become much different in tone, but when you continue to get sound answers to your questions and you keep coming back here fortifying your lack of ability to grasp a concept that others seem pretty okay with, well, you're knocking your head against a wall repeatedly. Are you in the habit of doing that alot?

I'll try to dumb this down for you back off.... I'm under siege myself, and I've started a site that affords some of us a way to get our message out there to fight censorship. The bottom line IS fighting censorship. The purpose of the site is to expose idiocy on the part of pro-censorists, and to allow webmasters that are now being crapped on to have their say. If you're against censorshit and want to make a small stand against it, you'll place a button for either my site or EFF or someone. If you don't give a shit about censorship or what it can do to this industry then don't do fuck all. Is that simple enough for you?

But, withholding your precious site from linking to mine until I make your suggested changes, well, if you think that will work you really are nuts. All you had to do was either ignore this thread (like so many others), or make your suggestions and be satisfied with my original answers, or else just stick a damn little 3 kb button on your page and show some support for what is an obvious good cause, but that's just tooo much to expect from the great one. Oh, I better cut this short, it's getting too long for you to keep reading, sorry bro.
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Let's talk about commitment...

Let's see if I can understand your thinking here.....

Spending 60 to 70 hours to build the initial site & graphics plus ongoing updates for the website, plus doing research on topics of interest, plus fighting my own battle, plus promoting the site, plus following through on behalf of those that ask for help, plus a lot of other behind the scenes networking with others that you wouldn't know about, all that shows a lack of commitment on my part,

BUT...

Spending "$15 bucks for a domain name" and a "couple (literally) for paid hosting" shows unbelievable commitment? (show me where this golden host is that only charges $2 for webspace....is that per month or per year?)

Oh, and let's not forget the massive commitment on YOUR part by taking 30 seconds to download a button, put it on your site and link it to the A-C site. Wow, that's what I call commitment.

Is there something wrong with this picture or is it just.... you?

Joking aside, it's obvious that you don't have a clue what real commitment is, or what it means to feel passionate about something that is just wrong. Maybe I'm making a statement about something by running this site the way I'm running it, who knows? I'd rather spend money to help others directly than fancy up this site, it's functional enough as it is. I've taken the suggestions of others in the past and made some changes accordingly, but I'll be damned if I'm going to jump through hoops and make all sorts of changes every time someone isn't happy with my methods just so guys like you can justify making what you call "commitment" by uploading a fucking link.


The reason my replies to you are getting a bit heated, back off, is that your little comments like the one above are the real attacks in this conversation.
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2 more massive replies, full of shit.

So, you've proven that you can't respond civilly. As for the EFF, do you want me to show you my tax receipts? Tough shit.

As for fleeing the country - it has nothing to do with the police, it has to do with the country sucking. I've lived all over the world, and I know - have you?

I won't bother with this thread any more. The very fact that you're so childish as to mutilate my nick is reason enough. I can't see why anyone would support a political site run by someone so politically dense as yourself.

Cheers,
Backov

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The child always calls the adult childish.

There you have it folks, the great backov, running from a great country like Canada, again not answering....to where?

Reciepts? No, how about showing me a url of yours that contains a measly link though? The EFF could be so lucky, I'm sure.

Let's recap for the masses:

1st post of Backov: he comes on here and instantly calls the A-C site "mickey mouse" and not worth linking to. That is totally okay in his book, just constructive critisism, no?

My response directly below him was fine in my book I see no attack there. It shows I feel strongly about the greater purpose of the site, and I close by again inviting you to join up.

Then a guy named "liquid" restates the same thing, so I provide details on what it is that I am willing to do for webmasters, and I map out the level of my commitment to this cause.

A brief interlude of some intelligent and encouraging words from webmistress (thank you)

...followed by the "straight talk" of backov, telling me I have no commitment. He minimizes my efforts thus far, and tries to show the act of placing a link to the site to be the ultimate show of commitment, so I better do like he says or else no link for me. Oh, and he asks why my site is needed when the EFF is there? Is that really considered to be an intelligent question? Lawyers and pro-bono work? GO TO THE EFF FOR THAT, my site is about helping in other ways.

After that post of his, ya, I get a little testy. I've tried to reason with this idiot, and yet he keeps coming back chirping the same lame song.

No further recap is necessary, my last 2 posts trying one last time to inject a clue into his ego-clouded head were written off as "shit". Am I surprised?

People, read this post and tell me why this turned into a pissing match? I know, but do you? Then again, how many people in history had an idea but were riddled with criticism from people that only think in the negative?

Detract and snipe at my site all you want, but in the meantime I'm adding to it constantly, it's growing and expanding and getting more effective every week. Who knows where it could lead, but you aren't thinking in the long term are you backov? I agree, one of us is politically dense.
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My next move --
<a href="http://nav.webring.yahoo.com/hub?ring=anticensorshipfr" TARGET="_blank"><img src="http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/Anti-Censorship%20Site/ac_webringlogo.jpg" border=0 width=150 height=150 ALT="Anti-Censorship Web Ring">

Backov would likely say that yahoo is pretty mickeymouse too. If so, why is the EFF and other large organizations also involved with such things as rings? http://nav.webring.yahoo.com/hub?ring=blueribbon&list

I have work to do, best to all.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 07-14-2001).]