2257 and US webmasters
 

What are you guys doing?

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I live in the US and am seriously thinking on shutting down. The proposed regulation has the sole purpose of going after distribution/faciitation of online porn.

The goverment now could not care less about paysite owners, obscenity prosecutions or even cp. What they really care about is eliminating the proliferation of porn by making affiliates and small webmasters responsible for keeping identification of all models promoted, an almost insurmountable obstacle. With the proposed 2257 they have just done that.

As a small affiliate living in the US I am no longer building free sites or looking for programs to promote. In fact, I have started cancelling some parked domains that I bought for future projects.

This is how scared I am. Sponsors are pretty much covered and could not care less about their affiliates when it comes to the Feds knocking on your door. They mightl offer a helping hand these days and say they have all bases covered, but the truth is they WILL NOT be at your place of business if one gets busted.

These days, instead of running my little operation, I only think on what am I going to do if I am subject to an investigation. Given that the goverment intention is to strike at the center of the distribution, the chances are GREAT that us, little webmasters will be at the center of the storm. Think about it. A great deal, perhaps as much as 75%, of what can be found online is not the making of sponsors but affiliates trying to make a buck. I even know one guy who runs 2500 domains and is all over the map on search engines. Guess whose door the feds will be knocking? The goverment also knows that us, small webmasters, do not stand a chance in a criminal court. How many of you out there can hire a $400/hour defense attorney?

It is not the same anymore. A month ago, I would only think on my next plan or project to keep building my virtual empire. It was a matter of "adding another 10% income increase per month" and the sky was the limit. Today, I wake up and all I want is to know what the fuck I have online that can get me into trouble and how the fuck I get rid of it. Even in the best case scenario where one gets investigated and gets the "clear" from uncle Sam, who the fuck wants to keep pushing traffic knowing that the feds know your address, phone number, your face and probably the smell of the shit on your pants.

Share your story.

I feel exactly the same way. I know that whatever I do to be compliant, that this administration will find some way to make a conviction "stick".

I plan on playing it low key until I see that Bush and his cronies are out of office. Then things should all calm down.

Wait they are probably reading this....

I love president Bush and I am now reading the bible every hour.:thumbsup

Get organzied as early as you can as best you can is what I would say to do.

Hmm...guess they will have to build many more and much bigger jails for 100,000's of criminal webmasters, Yep we will take over the joints :) Then run our sites from there anyway.

They do not have to put behind bars 100,000 webmasters. JUST ONE. The other 99,999 will shut down. This is the intended effect!

Why would you stop building free sites or websites? Just use SOFTCORE banners and SOFTCORE pictures.

That's how you should promote porn anyway.

:thumbsup

This is EXACTLY what Ashhahahahaha wants. For people to stop making porn sites. Of course he so stupid to realize that even if 100% of US webmasters stop over 50% of the porn out there will still be out there because it's NON-US and they couldn't give a rats ass about his rules and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.

I'm trying to focus on mainstream more and all I'm going to deal with is FHG from sponsors since I won't be responsible for that. Of course there is anime, unless Ashhahahahaha expect 2257 info on a cartoon.

I'm going to laugh my ass off when we US guys are out of this business because of Ashhahahahaha and 90% of the porn on the net is some dude fucking a chicken or some chick blowing a horse and Ashhahahahaha says "Um wait aminute, this is not what I wanted to happen."

Even Playboy is subject to 2257. Who going to list a gallery or freesite that's has to be softer than Playboy? You can't show pink or bush without having 2257 info. Remember this is the same guy who spent $8000 of my tax $ to cover up the boobies of the greek statues outside his office because they offended him. He wanted to ban DANCING in his hometown as a younger man. Ever see Footloose? That guy was liberal compared to Ashhahahahaha.

I just removed all links to other pages and made my pages non-adult. It works really good.

This is what happens when an industry does not self-regulate and think they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Who's going to list a softcore gallery? Everyone. Because they won't have any other alternatives.

TGP with text links and softcore galleries. If the surfers don't like it, let them join the fucking paysites.

You see a sky falling but I see more signups instead. :glugglug

and REALLY softcore...watch those open legs shots. Oh, this is going to be fun.

Nope. Good way to get sent to jail.

from 2001

Two years ago Cohen and his business partners at WSEX, Haden Ware and Steve Schillinger, were charged by the US government with taking sports wagers by phone and over the Internet, in violation of the Wire Act. Cohen returned to the US to stand trial and was convicted by a New York jury. He was fined $5,000 and sentenced to 21 months in prison.

Cohen is currently free on bail, pending appeal. Ware and Schillinger continue to operate the business from Antigua, fugitives from American justice.

And I agree with that.. Let the surfers have millions of extremely lame softcore pictures. I don't care. That's how you should promote it. :glugglug

The Hun won't have otehr alternatatives? How about the 1000's of NON-US webmasters that can freely make HARDCORE galleries?

Heck even US TGP owners can list hardcore galleries as long as they don't have any hardcore pics on their pages. Just LINKING to hardcore material doesn't subject you to 2257, otherwise Google would be fuked.

I have barely even showed a dick on my pages for the past three years anyway. My main concern is trying to find all my pages..some 5 years old when I was less picky.

We need to become the Spice channel type lame where we have well places toasters in the way of anything good or have their heads disapear so that nothing is really seen.

There is life outside of TGPs but I am happy if people don't know that.

Yeah but even if you blured out the "naughty" parts that's still subject to 2257. If the pic even INSINUATES sex then it's subject to 2257. Anythning more hardcore than Maxim is going to be subject to 2257.

Rolf yeah right

This is the way to go.. paysites and content producers all feel that hardcore images should not be used because it takes awy from the surfer turning into a member to pay to see the hardcore stuff.


When you say SOFTCORE, be sure that that images are not

1) showing masturbation (which requires 2257)
2) VERY young looking models


While non-sexually explicit pictures of very young looking models do not require 2257, you could trigger a CP inquiry as another way of shutting you down.

Attorneys have the position that you should treat every nude image with 2257 gloves on to be 100% safe. The problem with that is affiliates or free sites (who don't license content), is that they don't have access to 2257 records.


Here are some ways to look at things from a business perspective (and to protect yourself legally).


1) If the sponsor has a license to distribute "softcore" images to affiliates, use them as long as they don't include points #1 and #2 above.


2) License your own content, of the same content used by the sponsor, so that you can CAN display some hardcore images, but since you licensed it from the Content Producer, you would have your 2257 info. (some sites like sleazydream.com license content to show on the website, where others grab thumbnails from the site they are linking to, and don't have a license nor 2257 info).

This option means you paying money for content. Image sets run as low as $20, and you can legally display those "hardcore" images now.

If you are making money, you are running a business.. and businesses have expenses.... so purchasing/licensing content should not be a foreign concept.


Going overseas is not the answer, unless you completely go overseas. This means, no US hosting, no US-based credit card processor, no assets in the US. You would have to pick up and move to another country and be completely disconnected from the US. Going to Europe is not the escape place since EU is tightening up its laws, and as with Germany, some countries are very strict. You will end up going to some really off-shore locations like vanatu or isle of man, etc.



-brandon

You are at least the 1000th person to post that incorrect assumption here at GFY. You can move your servers offshore, fine. BUT if you work on your pages in the US, upload them from the US, have domains registered in the US, or receive money in the US you are still bound by US laws and you WILL go down if they come after you for 2257 violations.

You are correct... even putting a star, a dot, or blurred out on the "nasty" parts will still trigger 2257 requirements.

In talking with TGP that had thumbs, we explored the idea of just cropping to the head, so there was no action going on, and just alt tags or js to put in the nasty text.

One webmaster told me that it would still require 2257.. i didn't get into a discussion over that issue, since that would seem to be like "mind policing".... you can't see anything nasty, but if you think something is nasty under the crop, then it's nasty?


Sponsor's who have tours built for them by designers that use sexually explicit images, will need to have their documentation in place. This should not be difficult for sponsors, since they should have licensed the images (and therefore received 2257 docs) and hand the images to the designer, who returns back a tour.

If you purchase turnkey tours from designers, be sure you have the license to use those images from the content producer, otherwise you could get busted for copyright infringement (and this does happen).



-brandon

Brandon I have a US company I'm also an Australian.
I'm now setting up in the EU "not to get around 2257"
However I will still be hosting my sites in the USA. I can't see any problems with this, can you?

yeah, I know..I was just being silly but really that is why I am staying totally softcore outside of membership areas from now on and even then i might keep softcore..depending on the niche it can be done.

From what I can tell, if there is an entire picture...with parts of it starred out or blurred and real (not simulated) sex is going on you need the 2257. If you take a chick that is completly nude, but just crop out her face and put just the face up on TGP you do not need the 2257.

Alot of overseas companies host in the US due to most of the paying customers being here, bandwidth pipes, etc.. but with your content hosted here, you are under US jurisdiction for 2257.

Porn is not illegal (at least not right now), so running a website with "sexually explicit" content is fine, as long as you COMPLY with the law.

This means licensing your content (so you don't get hit with copyright infringement) and having 2257 records for pictures you display.

I have talked with many sponsors and content producers, they aren't that hysterical about 2257 because they have or will be getting their records in order.

Sites that use "free" content do have a major concern, since they don't license the images, therefore, don't have 2257 info.

As a small side tangent, if you accept "free" content from sponsors, you really need to be sure that this content was truly allowed to be shared. Some content producers DO NOT allow this kind of handing out of images, and you could end up getting nailed for copyright infringement, where you thought it was "legal" in accepting the "free" content.

If a content producer does allow sponsors to handout content, then with the new regulations going into effect, it would simply mean that sponsors would end up handing out the 2257 info as well (easier said than done).

I don't know what kind of site you run, but looking at things generically, if you are going to show hardcore (sexually explicit) images, you need to have 2257 records. If you license the content, you have a better chance of getting that 2257 info, than getting it with the "free" content from a sponsor.

With your servers here in the US, they can shutdown the site and then freeze any US-based accounts you have. While they can't grab ya in Australia, your US-based assets would be subject to seizure.



-brandon

We are a Danish company, but hosted in the US. We asked out lawyer whether or not the 2257 regs applied to us, and we received the answer "they do because your server is in the US".

Now I could imagine that if we ever entered the US, we could get prosecuted for not complying with the 2257 regs, would that be correct?

Thank you, this answers my question as well.

Thanks for the reply Brandon
At least they can't prosecute us, but getting the sites shut down would be a major pain in the ass. I guess EU hosting is my easiest answer. All my content is legal however linking 100k plus images to comply on just one of my site would be a nightmare.

That is them. NOT THE AFFILIATE.
It is my understanding that most if not ALL sponsors will NOT give away personal data of models, which makes sense. Instead, they will provide some kind of "key" to the data, which will be locked until the time of inspection. Affiliates will have then some kind of "place holder" for the identification of the model, a sort of ID locator that will help retrieve data in case one gets busted.

So it's not easy.
Think about the feds at your place of business, waiting on the phone to talk to the sponsor about one particular picture in one of your sites. Now, what if you run 100 sites and have 9500 pages to deal with.

Licensing the content a webmaster got from a sponsor or was allowed to get from a paysite may or may not be a solution. If it is, it will take more than one month to cover all pictorials, for sure. Some guys who do not run TGPs and are into free sites may have a vast number of pages...

I'd say a quick solution will be to nuke any "suspicious" picture. Leave as many "faces" as possible and make sure they look "old enough". Little by little start replacing all promotional pics for solo photos that do not imply sexual activity, neither they suggest. AND ALWAYS HAVE SOME KIND OF 2257 NOTICE. Even if not necessary. In this latter example just a notice may be fine, as opposed to having the actual records.

I am working on a free solution with many different players to help solve the problem of affiliates and websites having the 2257 info from content producers.

The law is very clear about receiving the 2257 records and having them locally at a place of business for inspection.

It will take a courtroom to decide if having records stored on your web server, or on a third party server as being "at your place of business", since you would have internet access, and your business actually gets transacted on the internet.

The solution that i am putting together would allow webmasters to have local copies of the records on their hard drives, but would be encrypted with DRM.

See my 2257 summary for more info on this part:
http://www.2257lookup.com/2257Summary.html


-brandon

Tell you what. Show me a government who keeps perfect records and then perhaps you'll convince us all of how easy it is.

Brandon is like the patron saint of online porn:thumbsup

2257bumpers

I guess the adult biz is not the only part of industry where you loose some money Us guys.For example travelling must be pretty down due to new security rules in US.
I wonder if your economic can feel that.I guess so as USD is pretty weak currency
who knows - god bless you Bush fans

If your going to run that means i need to run after my money:2 cents:

Just comply

:1orglaugh I guess I have somewhat stepped into that role.

Until porn is ruled illegal, it just doesn't make sense for webmasters to be put in jail just because of slackness in record keeping or a twisting of the law to serve an agenda.

I am a fan to some degree of freedom-fighting organizations like ACLU, EFF, and FSC, where these groups (and the people working in those organizations) approach freedom from the legislative angle... in lobbying congress and trying to influence laws... I see that problems can have solutions.. using either high tech or low tech.

Addressing issues like 2257 from the legal angle is definitely needed and I know there are legal beagles out there looking to take on the challenge of dealing with the constitutionality of the new 2257 regulations.

Myself and all the other tech-heads that are creating 2257 solutions are addressing the problem from the practical standpoint of what can a webmaster do to comply as best as they can with the law.

Even if the legal approach strikes down certain parts of 2257, there is alot of 2257 that will still be standing. It's understood by many of us that while 2257 is a record keeping statute meant to ensure that children are not used in production, it is clearly seen as a method and tool to shutdown adult websites (much like Protect Act was used to shutdown CP websites - stretching the original intent of the law).

Self-policing and setting of industry standards is normal for all mainstream industries that grow beyond their infancy.

The online adult entertainment industry has matured and is facing issues just like other industries (ie. patents, regulations, etc).

This is why organizations like FSC, IMPA, and ASACP are looking to give guidance to webmasters to follow best practices in order to not have legislation passed, to regulate the industry by those that don't even understand the industry.

If Acacia wasn't the wake-up call, then 2257 is the banging on the door to wake up.

As you start to hear about efforts that FSC or IMPA are doing in areas of 2257, please pay attention. Having a large group come together to address important issues is the way to make positive change. This means supporting efforts that look to protect your interests with both your time, your vote, and financial contributions.

I should be the Patron Saint of Soapboxes :1orglaugh

-brandon

You truly are doing a great job, even though many may not even realize how important a job it is. :thumbsup

I don't have any idea how the US legislation process works, but it seems to me that lobbyist groups are pretty influential. Wouldn't it be possible to form some kind of lobbyist group financed by adult webmasters just like we have been doing with Acacia?
Clearly these regulations are out of proportions and somebody needs to tell them that in a way they understand. But I guess that is what you just said is already being done :)
:2 cents:

I'm not from USA and i didn't want to do shit about it
Then i went hummmmmm (things that makes you go hummmmm) then i said
Fuck it, a couple of hard days of work to move everything OFFSHORE to get the hell out of this thing.
I won't ever host in USA again.


Where will it stop ? Tell me....
Now i have feelings for american webmasters. Lots and lots of work and stress ! Man they can burst into your office screaming: "FBI FBI FBI" and you go huh ??????? and it won't be like on American Justice i'm telling ya.

Get the fuck out of your country :2 cents:
(i would do it if i were you ):winkwink:

Canada and especially Mexico are looking real good to me and not just because of 2257 and other stuff adult related.

This country is in a major state of political and public disrepair (and dispair, LOL) and I think we'd just be a lot happier living in Alberta.

But in the meantime, and I'll just wait until I see what November holds, I'll just comply. It's not all that difficult, there's some great bought content out there and I've found that if I spend money on promotion content, it always pays me back over and over.

As well as we run several paysites, and I do business with 3 major content producers, and have always gotten the model IDs on everything I've bought.

I already have it on CD with the zips and since we can almost always look at a set and name the producer, I see no huge step in getting it all set up in a certain order. (Which would help me out in the long run, because when I'm looking for something in particular I wouldn't have to look thru 50 CDs to find it).


:2 cents:

AST

most of the content producers we buy from are refusing to give us the unaltered documents... what good is the model ID if everything is blurred out except the picture & birthday? lol

Mine give me the Docs.

However, either make them, or don't do business with them.
I don't need the model's phone number etc, nor do I want it, but some stuff is pertinent.

Eventually, they'll have to comply or quit, just like everyone else.

We are burning all of records onto CD
for our webmasters to use.

We will block specific information pertaining
to the models privacy information.

If they (US) don't like it, they can GFY!

http://banners.wildrhino.com/fofb/dial.gif
That post was a flash of fucking brilliance. The author of this post has earned $20 from FLASHCA$H and our eternal gratitude for making time spent on the boards more worth while. THANK YOU!

Email [email protected] or ICQ 261-416-675 to arrange for your cash.
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heya hal, you weren't kidding about that flash of fucking brilliance thing..... and it was your 1,000th post too.


Fight the Don't Spend it all in one place!

well, lookie there. Spent my 1000th to give you props. Well worth it. (sending you an ICQ to arrange your $$)

Bump for a great post :)

It doesn't much help you though if you have already bought it years ago in good faith and now have to face taking it all down.

don't worry, if you cover your eyes it'll all go away