Torture vs humilation of Iraqi prisoners
 

tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

hu·mil·i·a·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-ml-shn)
n.

1. The act of humiliating; degradation.
2. The state of being humiliated or disgraced; shame.
3. A humiliating condition or circumstance.



I don't see how we tortured the Iraqis at all.

You don't see it. Neither do I. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You don't?

The Iraqi prisoners just had their pride hurt.

I think what those very few Americans did was out of line with our expectations of proper behavior. However, was it so out of control as to warrant a national apology? No it doesn't. Cases like this are far more common in domestic prisons and are accepted.

Of course I don't condone treating anyone in such a manner. But to use the word torture to describe the events that took place is just media hype.

humiliation/degradation can cause mental anguish

2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.

What was severely painful about what happened? Were they beaten? Were their lives put in danger? No, it was just their pride.

The level of harrassment the iraqi prisoners received was more comparable to hazing at a frat house. Let's be real.

Typical western approach, their culture is not the same, and homosexual acts and other shaming including being naked in front of women is totally different, some arabs will not even shake a womans hand, it's a total different to what YOU would feel.

..and it's not legal.

But since usa just invaded the country without declaring war, I guess they don't need to follow the rules of war.. such as the Geneva Convention

Excellent point. But the fact remains that their lives were never in jeopardy as is more associated with torture than humiliation.

Both are illegal under the 3rd and 4th Geneva Conventions.

WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]
torture
n 1: <B>extreme mental distress [syn: anguish, torment]</B>
2: unbearable physical pain [syn: torment]
3: intense feelings of suffering; acute <B>mental</B> or physical
pain; "an agony of doubt"; "the torments of the damned"
[syn: agony, torment]

I do believe torture still applies, because the definition includes mental agony.

I'm not really following your point. The US military is the only military in the world (with the exception of the UK) that makes the greatest efforts to abide by articles of ocnduct. Obviously there are lapses and problems with how individual soldiers behave but such practices like in the case of the Iraqi prisoners aren't encouraged nor are standard procedure.

the guy wrapped in plastic... his life wasn't in jeopardy?

You're arguing over definitions.

I guarantee you, if you were held captive as a prisoner with guns at their ready maybe even pointed at your head and were made to do things against your will and you complied out of fear for your life...you would consider it torture.

You can then loosely say that spanking your child is torture. It is both physically hurting the child and also is mentally straining on the child.

So I guess I can take you and your family and force them into lewd poses in front of a camera and it's all okay because all I did was humiliate you.

ok if anyone is suprized by anything thats come out of iraq in the last week or two....

WAKE THE FUCK UP

nobody ever knew this stuff happens in war.. in happend in vietnam Korea ww1 ww 2

Death killing carnage normally dont bring out the best in people. This isent the first time this shit has ever happ[end and it wont be the last. Like it or not.

Im not supporting it. Im just saying dont be suprised when you see it:2 cents:

You're really stretching it..and it's weak.

Why is someone commenting on it acting as if they were surprised?

As if you're the only one who realized that bad stuff happens in a war...LOL

What does that have to do with my post? Obviously these guys aren't making any effort to abide by any articles of conduct.

The group is only as strong as the weakest link. A few rotten apples and the entire bunch is ruined... as is the reputation of the fine "law-abiding" soldiers now.

I'm sure that was just to protect him from freezer burn.

Again, I think that the behavior of the guards was bad and they'll be punished in accordance with our laws. However this falls more into the category of hazing and harrassment than torture.

Causing someone shame is a moral crime. In many cultures, shame is the catalyst for murder, suicide and much more.

Let's turn the tables with a hypothetical situation:

Let's say that an American was being held, and as a source of amusement, they forced him to have sex with his mother while they watched.

Yes I know that they are not identical situations, but the Americans would consider that a horribly shameful & torturous act, while another culture who does not value women (even their own mothers) might not.

Riiiight..m'kay.

Last time I was hazed I wasn't in fear of my life. It wasn't in a prison surrounding where people with armed weapons had every ounce of control over my being.

Causing someone shame is a moral crime. In many cultures, shame is the catalyst for murder, suicide and much more.

Let's turn the tables with a hypothetical situation:

Let's say that an American was being held, and as a source of amusement, they forced him to have sex with his mother while they watched.

Yes I know that they are not identical situations, but the Americans would consider that a horribly shameful & torturous act, while another culture who does not value women (even their own mothers) might not.

Something that is no big deal in our culture, or 'not physically dangerous' is a tragic event to others (and vise versa)

Demoralization, dehumanization and humiliation are all tools of war.

As if you're the only one who realized that bad stuff happens in a war...LOL [/B][/QUOTE]

http://pix.segfault.cz/gfy/huh.jpg

And yeah that pic is appropriate for you.

re: you're arrogant statment about how people need to wake up....as if you're the only person on this board who realizes bad stuff happens in a war.

Catch a clue man...we all realize that worse stuff than this is going on...but we don't have proof.

This is the proof.

I think the point that a lot miss is that their morals are not ours. If a guy grabbed your wife's ass over here you would sock him. Over there, you would spend your entire life hunting him down and praying to god for his death until one of you was dead on the ground.

They are a very different, conservative people. Stripping them naked is INCREDIBLY humilliating to them. You can't really say "well I wouldn't be that bothered if I was prisoner and stripped naked". That is because you are not in their position.

I do understand why they are so angry. It is a HUGE deal to them.

But Democrats openly calling for Rumsfeld's resignation? Give me a break. I agree that what was done was wrong, but I also don't blame the soldiers here. You train people to kill, defend your country, and then people are "shocked" when this happens? Can't have your cake and eat it too, America. War makes animals of everyone involved. Even the "white knights". Look at Dresden.

I don't think anyone could have sex at gun point. But even your hypothetical arguement isn't congurent with what happened at the prison.

However, I think that it does apply in regards to how other countries, Iraq and other Arab nations have such punishments set up as standard policy.

We don't get bent out of shape when our people are tortured and killed because we believe that it is in their culture to handle criminals in such a manner.

The key here that I think everyone is missing is that what happened to the Iraqi prisoners ISN'T common practice among most Americans but it IS a standardized procedure among our enemies.

ok sunshine sorry you took that personally..
its a genral statement. alot of the "public"outside our sacred gfy seem to be put back by this. Thats what i was commenting on. sorry if you missed the point. Anyway.. now that the attempt a drumming up drama is over we can get back to thread decussion:moon

Just as long as your country's leaders openly denounced your actions and apologized to me and my family. I think your punishment for such a crime would be in accordance with your country's laws and morality. I'd probably just make you swim across a lake with an ass candle.

I don't think my entire family would be taken in as POWs though. And I'd bet you aren't that good of a swimmer. :winkwink:

?I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.?

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, ?We?re talking about rape and murder here, we?re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we?re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/

Some of you are fucking sheep. The pictures you saw are nothing compared to what was happening - they were raping and murdering people.

Rape and murder.

I hope that those involved will recieve their just dues. In regards to rape and murder I don't know if there is enough evidence to support such claims. Either way this isn't America's finest hour.

I found Sen. Liberman's comments to be well done:

He commended Rumsfeld for apologizing for the abuse at Abu Ghraib, but added, ?I cannot help but say, however, that those who are responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001, never apologized, those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized, those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Falujah? never apologized either.

We?re talking about rape and murder here, we?re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we?re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/

Are you joking?

Thanks for the increased font..

Yes, the quote is in the article but appears almost dead last and isn't substantiated with any proof. The rape and murder he is talking about is still in the allegation phase. If true then this is definitely terrible. We'll soon find out.

How about this one?

US confirms killing PoWs

THE US Army confessed yesterday that two Iraqi prisoners had been murdered by Americans and a third shot dead while trying to escape.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...55E663,00.html

BROWNLEE: Of the 25 death investigations, the CID has determined that 12 deaths were due to natural or undetermined causes, one was justifiable homicide and two were homicides

transcript

CNN.com
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told congressional investigators that videos and "a lot more pictures" exist of the abuse of prisoners at the prison. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse," he told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe." Full story

Ain't war hell?

So then there were two murders?

Wow, this does require Presidential attention and a national apology.

The major difference between this and the treatment of our POWs is that we as a nation are appaled for this kind of behavior and are taking action against it.

When are the Iraqis (Arabs for that matter) going to protest the inhumane treatment of the hostages they've been taking?

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/ALLPOLIT...testers.ap.jpg

CNN voting results: http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/result...5.content.html

Two murders that they have admitted to so far as well as ongoing investigations into other possible murders by U.S. soldiers or contractors.

Here is part of a military report that the New Yorker published - do you deny this is torture?

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/

Why would anyone try to defend these actions?

we have some fucked up soliders fighting this war. the iraq people in general really did nothing wrong to americans. the didn't cause 9/11 they fought in a war that was forced upon them by OUR president. if someone shoots at you, and you have a gun you're going to shoot back.

now you have a bunch of military family members saying there son's are innocent. bullshit there is proof of them in photos and videos. prosecute those suckers send them to jail that's not exceptible just because they're americans and fight in a war doesn't make it right

yes yes you americans are never wrong. yes you have never tortured iraqis prisoners... and the pictures in newspapers and internet???????????????

Gold words!

You must listen to Rush.

what ever happened to leading by example? If we are the best military power (as claimed) and/or the best nation (again, as claimed) then when our people do EVIL things we throw our hands up and deal with it and not try to squirm out of it with 'well he hit me first' arguments that toddlers give.

No one ever assumes that everyone is good. If so then why do we have prisons in the US? And I'm sure that all nations have some form of prison system.

The US military isn't equipped nor trained as a police force with the exception of each branches own military police. Still, these are MPs and not prison guards.

In regards to the allegations of actual torture like breaking lightbulbs on prisoners, I hope I've made it clear that those involved (and if the allegations are true) they'll be procecuted.

I do believe that our people over there are as appalled at this as we are at home.

The most appaling bit is about the expectation of different standards based on culture vs that of law. To indemnify the Iraqis for the atrocities they've commited because it's in their culture is ridiculous and they should be held to a higher standard; moreover, justice must be done. This justice however doesn't include the harassment nor 'doing to them as they've done to us.'

Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread. I'm going home to smoke pot and watch some Chris Cunningham videos.

Lieberman is a fucking asshat.

i am sure atleast one word in your reply had something to do with my post.