Open and public note to CCbill
 

As an adult webmaster I buy before I sell. Last month I bought a Top Bucks site because we were trying to decide whether to sell their product. I was billed and there was no problem, this month however another charge from another adult site never purchased showed up as a CCbill charge.

I called your toll free number and was treated very professionally however when I explained the problem I was told the best your firm could do was stop the repeat billing. I explained I never bought the site and wanted a refund. After a sort hold time I was told NO. I explained that since I never bought the site I would do a chargeback and I really did not want to do that, however I did want a refund. I was told to proceed with the chargeback.

This entire scenario makes no sense to me, I was billed for site I did not buy, a big problem. I called and requested a refund and I was told no. I did process a chargeback today, not my desire but I am not your guppy either.

Could this be one more reason that Visa and MasterCard frown on this industry?

uuuuhhhhh ooooo


sounds like a 'glitch'

Reminds me - must pop to the local fish shop tomorrow and buy some more. There's only 3 at the moment and they're getting a tad lonely.

That's very uncharacteristic of them. At least you filed the chargeback, but I don't see why this error happened in the first place. I've never heard this situation before, so this was most likely an honest glitch.

looks like you got hit with a cross sale

i am sure topbucks will love hearing that

hmmmmm.....interesting policy they have

Did you forget to uncheck the little check box before you signed up? The one with the fine print that says "we are also giving you a free trial to blah blah blah that will rebill in 3 days."

Post the site here that you joined and the site that you were rebilled for.

... that's not his point.

Also how come you didnt write the website, I am assuming ccbill clients have the power to issue refunds like we do with ibill.

Yes, we do :)

You miss my point. Let's make me an average porn buyer. I by a Topbucks site. I get billed for it and also billed for a site I did not buy. I contact the biller on my credit card statement and they politely say GFY. Am I am happy consumer? I think not. Am I obligated to contact a business I never did business with and ask them to ask their billing company who billed me to give me a refund?

No my business was with CCbill they owed the refund.

When this happens to a surfer he tells his friends, and they tell there friends, and so on. Then they don't trust any site and just surf the free porn and never pay anything. It ends up hurting us all. :2 cents:

CCBill doesn't randomly charge your card. You were obviously a dumb ass and didn't notice an upsell box checked. That makes it YOUR fault, not CCBills. Pay better attention next time.

I don't blame them for not giving you a refund.

Beautiful attitude.

It was your fault for not reading that fine, fine print down aways on some site's TOS that says you are getting a "free" trial whether you like it or not to another paysite - oh, and you better cancel this site you may not even realize you are getting a trial to before it converts to a monthly, recurring membership.

It's your fault you didn't see that pre-checked box that says you are also getting, lucky dog, a $1 membership which if not canceled in 24 hours will convert to a $50 membership to a paysite. Don't forget to cancel.

Hey folks! Watch the porn industry self-destruct. It's right over here. Free membership - no need to cancel.

Please.

Probono - whenever i go to a topbucks site, i see epoch as their processor, not ccbill.

it does make me wonder - does epoch sometimes use ccbill? i've never seen that, so i'm wondering under what circumstances they use them.

ccbill has been a stellar biller for us - and i've paid sex.com with them repeatedly with no problem. they have always been quite reputable with everyone i know.

perhaps you could give us details - name of site you joined, was there a cross sale, all that stuff. i don't believe or disbelieve, but i'd like more info to push me in a direction.

Good evening

Probono,

We have a call center and it is the job of the staff within to make judgment calls. They have various facets of account information at their disposable and by using that information; they make a determination on what to do when a consumer contacts them regarding a charge.

Without the details of this particular situation, I could not even begin to evaluate whether you had gotten a fair response or not. It might have been a single transaction with an exact AVS and CVV2 match, or we might have logs of you calling in about a password issue to the site after the signup, or it might even be the former, but a fraudulent charge sent by an unscrupulous affiliate that obtained your information somehow?I don?t know, but I have learned that it is wise not to make assumptions when the facts are so easy to investigate.

I remember a few threads a while back that we were getting complaints that we refund too easily. If the search button was reenabled I might be able to bring up a few threads by searching for ccbill + refunds + easily?I recall a time that we were getting flack for this.

Lee, from my dealings with you, you have always seemed like a reasonable person. I hope that you will not let one event be indicative on how business is handled as a whole. If you still have the motivation to find out what happened, contact me, I am interested myself.

45471840
[email protected]

How often do you join sites processed by CCBill? I do all the time, so I'm speaking from experience. The cross sale is NOT in fine print. It is VERY clear what is happening. Please do some research before you open your mouth again.

There are a lot of questions that have been asked of Probono in this thread that he has not answered. My guess is that some of those questions may have caused Probono to realize where the error lies (with himself).

Any feedback, Probono?

Id still rather see a refund than a chargeback. If they are going to charge back give them the fucking money to keep visa happy and chargeback ratios low

What the fuck does that matter? Credit card purchases are SELLER BEWARE and always have been whether you're buying porn or a new heart for granny. When someone calls and requests a refund they should promptly be given a refund. Period.

I am not sure what questions you want answered. I will say it simply we purchased one topbucks site to preview what we were and are planning to sell.

My partner made the purchase and unselected any cross sells. When he went to unsubscribe he like the offer made of maintaining the membership at a reduced rate for another month. He again made sure no cross sells were checked.

We had two CCbill charges on the second month one for the Top Bucks site, one unknown. I called CCbill on the unknown charge. The site we were billed for is http://www.anabolicxxx.com/ My partner never went to that site, it is not to my knowledge a topbucks site. There is no way on that site to email the owners. Whois shows the site to be Handel, Mark (ANABOLICXXX-DOM)
534 VICTORIA AVE
VENICE, CA 90291-4833, not Topbucks.

I asked for a refund, I was refused the refund. I said I would Chargeback, I was told to chargeback, I did chargeback.

The point I am trying to make is that there is a problem. I did not make the purchase, if it was a cross sell it was well hidden and when I requested a refund it should have been given, cross sells are thinly masked fraud.

If as an industry we want to prevent the continuous problems with chargecard companies things need to be better handled. I will contact Mark at CCbill and see if he can shed more light on the subject but the telephone CSR could or would not provide me more information.

I acted as a normal consumer and brought my experience here so those who can learn from the experience do learn from it.

yup..

Not cool at all dude! :mad:

I totally agree. This is why so many people who sign up for a site now immediately cancel, they're scared of getting cheated (again) and wont relax long enough to rebill.

Not going to name names, but I tested a 1-on-1 service last month that's highly reputable and the charges were non-recurring billing.

Another charge was just made on one of the cards I used and it is not showing in my stats.

:)

1-on-1, a webcam site?

Yup I agree. One way or the other they're going to get their money.

well, actually no.
a case can be made if the guy did in fact sign up , use the site, and it can be proven. no chargeback allowed if that's the case.

we havn't heard anything about that side of it yet. I find it hard to believe ccbill wouldn't allow a credit unless he actually used the site and he seems to be reluctant to provide the data to prove it one way or another.

Probono you've given us the CCBill site that you were charged for but not the Topbucks site you originally signed up for.

That's the one we want, so that we can go look at the join page ourselves.
Which Topbucks site did you join?

Sorry but you are wrong. You are guaranteed satisfaction when you pay for something with your credit card. I can go charge something at Wal-Mart, if it's broke or not what I expected and they won't refund I can just charge back and the banks charge Wal-Mart the fees.

I tend to agree.
I had my debit card # stolen and a slew of porn sites charged to it - I called each and every processor and asked them for a refund and to ban the number in their database and wasn't denied a refund at any of them after they looked at the info for the account, got all of my info, etc.

I'd think that if they *did* deny you a refund, then it's because they looked at the account info and compared it with what you were telling them, and determined that you were attempting to commit friendly fraud.

that's a wall mart rule - not a credit card rule.

the net isn't wallmart :Graucho

some cards have extra insurance for that, but not all.

I do believe it's a Visa / Mastercard, etc regulation. Part of the agreement you accept when you decide to take credit cards.

yes and no - i know people who have challanged it - mind you it was for advertising so more dollars were invloved - and they won the chargeback and it was reversed with visa cause they provided exactly what they said did and proved the person used it.

otherwise people would charge back $2000 at a restruant and say the meal sucked even if it didn't and get their money back- try it - you won't get away with it.

I see trying to sell the surfer on as many sites as possible. I also agree that the surfer should be more diligent when making purchases online. However, do you not think that chargebacks could be reduced somewhat by not checking those cross sell boxes by default? Just a thought.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carrie
Probono you've given us the CCBill site that you were charged for but not the Topbucks site you originally signed up for.

That's the one we want, so that we can go look at the join page ourselves.
Which Topbucks site did you join? [/
QUOTE]

milkseeker.com

"milkseeker" :1orglaugh

I disagree, SleazyDream.
The chargeback is issued by the bank of customer. It doesn't matter whether customer accessed the site or not. If he wants his money back, he gets them anyway.

Call center's have to be aggressive so they make you pay for it.
There not in the business to give refunds easily. Like corvett says its a judgement call and i guess the rep felt that you was trying to get over. Even you threaten a chargeback they might of felt that they can win the dispute.

This can easily be done by tracking IP location of the sale and if it was matched at the same time and place then it was a cross sale.

I had a similar experience and saw a CCbill charge i wasn't aware of. I asked where the ip location was and what name was on the bill. It clearly didn't match and they gave me a refund


I'd be pissed if every surfer called and asked for a refund got the refund

As a merchant account holder i know first hand what a chargeback process involves.

Once they request a chargeback it gets removed from their bill. But during that time you have like 30 days to dispute that charge and show your proof that the charge was valid. Now online transaction is alittle more difficult because you don't have a physical signature. but there are ways to prove a charge

Special Offer For New Members Only!
Click here to signup for a 5 day No Charge Membership to Milfs Exposed - Five Day Trial Membership. After 5 days, Membership renews automatically at $29.99 every 1 month.
Click here to signup for a 3 day trial Membership to Wives Exposed - Three Day Trial Subscription for $1.00. After 3 days, Membership renews automatically at $29.95 every 1 month.

-------------------------------------------

Both the above statments are clearly on the site... pre-checked, of course...... and in basically the same text size as everything else...

Since it's online transaction, basically you have only IP address of the customer (at the moment of signup and further members zone log-ins). How can you prove that customer was provided with service he was charged for?

Also, for 3rd party billers like CCbill or Ibill, how can you, as Sponsored Merchant, dispute the chargeback? I believe it's possible only in hypothetical way.

So, my point is -- if the customer wants money back he will get it sooner or later.

you will not find any prechecked crossales on the CCBill signup form for the aforementioned site, i had verified this

Many points here maby are valid. Without rehashing all that I said before I will say this.

We have had our own merchant acccount for nine years. If a person calls and says they have been a victim of fraud or denies making the charge we will check our information present it to them, ie: name, address, ISP, IP address etc. If they continue to request a refund we give it.

I respect CCbill they have always been an upfront company and that is way this event was so surprising.

If this was a cross sell, something I doubt, then I will repeat my earlier statement that cross sells are a fraud on the consumer. Yes, they might be legal and certainly profitable in the short term, however they are part of what is causing so many problems with Visa and MC.

If this was a valid sale the CSR could have provided information to prove it was valid, he did not. He said " you will not be billed again" when pushed on a refund he went off line to ask a supervisor and came back with a no.

I never even heard of the web site which I allegedly joined and for which I was billed. I certainly never received login information nor did I ever enter the web site.

My sole reason for this entire thread is to make the point that there are issues that need to be examined in this industry that effect all of our income streams.

I would like to stay in business. We need to continue to function under the largess of Visa and MasterCard. Over the past few years Amex and Paypal pulled themselves out of this industry, I am not sure if their departure effected you but it did hurt us. To continue to have Visa and MasterCard accept adult purchases this business MUST be honest in the way it treats consumers.

Hmmm, something odd going on here...

The join page I see isn't a CCBill, the cross sells I see aren't AnabolicXXX.com, and I've never known Topbucks to cross sell to them either.

basschick, Paycom does NOT use CCBill to process or vice versa, that would make no sense and would violate some cc company rules to be certain.

CCBill has also been dogged time and time again for issuing refunds too easily, so they can't seem to win here at all...

I'm sure someone from Topbucks will be along to comment after they look into it, I know Probono is a standup guy but this just doesn't add up based upon what I've seen to be typical business from either Topbucks or CCBill...

Just want to clarify a few things here, as they relate to TopBucks.

We use Epoch/Paycom as our primary billing solution, CCBill is the secondary/backup processor that we cascade to when someone is declined by Epoch for whatever reason. This is why you see the Paycom join form and associated cross sales when you click through to any of our join pages.

We do use cross sales through CCBill, which are not prechecked, or "hidden". We do not send any cross sales to the site in question (anabolicxxx.com), so this charge could not have resulted from purchasing a membership to MilfSeeker.

I'm not sure what occurred here, but I'm pretty certain that the two charges are completely unrelated. Probono - anyone else have access to that card?

- Q.

"Yes! I want 3 Days FREE to Adult Movie Network at NO CHARGE!!! - Your subscription will renew at $39.95 per month unless cancelled and will appear as a separate charge by WTS on your bank statement. Web Transaction Services provides billing and customer service for this site."

Checked by default. Not fine print. Big fucking print on the join page. Pretty common practice with a per sign-up program. How do you think they payout $30-40 on a $3 trial?

Maybe your partner made the other purchase too. Secret Fetish?