Graphics Guys, Ever Get Stuck For Cash?
 

Was just thinking, what would i do if i was a graphics guy and spent sooo many hours on a project, then the guy doesnt want it, or cant pay .. or whatever.

Not asking if you got scammed by them taking it and not paying, just asking if you find yourself getting stuck very often as far as buyers cancelling contracts?

If not, what are you doing to prevent it? Down payment before beginning operations?

don't most want half down before beginning?

swap out the content, change the name, and resell it.

my guy just did a $3k job for me with nothing down.

I overnighted him a check last few nights ago, i imagine it wont clear until tomorow or so.


BUT .. what if all of a sudden i became broke and couldnt pay him?

Naturally i wouldnt expect the stuff, but what would he do?

Its very custom work

good point ... i supose you can do that pretty easily.

But has it come down to it ever?

We have a pay up front policy, been burnt too many times by people not paying at the end (and more often than not using the designs regardless).
Having said that, I recently made a concession to a reputable company where they could pay once the work was complete, though this never happened - they said the work was not to their liking and then I never heard from them again.

So yeah, all up front, too many ppl out there just trying to fuck you over to do it any other way

several times... it sucks, but it's no big deal. No sense scrapping the design when you can sell it to someone that wants it.

Anyone who doesn't take at least half up front unless it's from someone they trust with like, their life, is simply ASKING for trouble. It's better to be professional so that if you do get left holding a "useless" design, you have SOMETHING for you work.. And customers are less likely to flake out if they've already forked out some dough.

Thats rough man,

Id never stiff someone on a job, but paying 100% up front just doesnt seem fare ... in that case your dumping the risk onto me. What if YOU dont produce, what if YOU dont know wtf your doing ... id be stuck with some half ass design and i already payed so you wont change it.

I wouldnt feel comfortable giving more than 50% or so until final product is to my liking or as agree'd.

Just my opinion.

yo

BTW the guy that did the $3k job for me ... i sent him a check that has not yet cleared.

I didnt ask, nor would i expect him to deliver the sites until the money is green and in his acct.


So he started for free, but got paid before completion .... does that seem fare?

Still taking a risk, but ....

whatup kidddd

rich when did you start rolling in da dough?

I never used to take anything up front unless a client insisted on it. I preferred not to. I always felt more comfortable in having them satisfied first, before taking any cash. (but that's just me)

Surprisingly, I only got burned a few times... and even then not really. I simply resold the non-payment deals gone bad to other people that wanted them. (or eventually came here and raised holy freakin' hell for days on end, and then resold them) :)

what dough? lol

I do all my work for nothing down. The design is shown to the buyer and when the result is, "DUDE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED!" then price is negotiated... that's the http://www.explicit-design.com way...

Good points - I understand clients might not feel all good about paying 100% up front.

I think a lot of it comes down to repuation - i.e. if we're dealing with someone unknown / new client - we're foolish not to enforce full payment up front - but on the other hand, when we do work for CEN / Global etc, these guys have such strong reputations, it really says a lot.
Having said that, I'd like to think our reputation gives potential clients confidence in us, the fact that we've been around for years now, the fact we've done business with ARS, CEN, Maxcash, Topbucks etc.. I've got 20+ great designers, we're not about to fuck someone over for a few hundred bucks, our clients' happiness is paramount.

I always take half down for anything over $1000 and full payment for anything under. You'd be amazed at how the smaller scale clients are generally more likely to be a problem then for much larger jobs. You can do a $50 job and get 40 emails about it with ideas and edits then do a $4000 job and get a simple thanks when it's done. =]

I agree with you, often its' clients who order one or two banners that will want edits to the point the design takes days instead of hours.

Well the job i had done just now ... not sure if youd consider it large so to say ... but i sure as hell nagged him.

I bet im a nightmare to deal with, because i like everything perfect but have no skill to do it myself, lol

There is nothing worse on the face of the earth than a business or marketing guy playing art Director...

Smart designers get money up front.
Stupid ones get burned.
The stupidest ones work to cheap and get raped by the wanna be art director.

cough, cough 1:4 cough, cough

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:thumbsup

I, like many others, take either a 25/25/25 or 50/50 upfront payment.

I've been burned many times, and learned my lesson.

Admit it, babe, you did it for the drama! :P No really, you're very lucky :) But then again most people know you're a bulldog too and won't let go until you either get the money or get the asshole, so they didn't piss around I guess haha.

Ahh i see.

So im sitting here dreaming of a site, having good luck converting my dating site or whatever ...

I hire you to make em a new splash or something, and your not going to respect my advice?

Not saying you dont know what your doing, but im the one with the idea .. not you.

Your job is to make my dream become a reality ... not to just do what the hell you want and wish me luck converting it.

I can turn that around and say "the worst thing in world is a graphics guy arguing with me about the text i should use on my splash"


lol just my opinion, but if im paying you a few thousand ... your doing wtf i want you to, even if its a bad idea ... rofl

ive used both those methods ... id have no problem with either one of them ... both very reasonable for both parties.

:2 cents:

Professional's understand what the business guy want's.

Idiot designers get it all wrong:)

Most designers are idiots.

You;d hate working with me then... =] Well unless you didn't want to take me up on the guarantee offer. I can always make something to look like what you have in your imagination but if I'm going to guarantee the results I have to tell you when your idea might be nice to look at but will hurt conversion. You'd think most people would rather make money than have it be a specific color they had in mind but you'd be surprised at how tightly people hold on to ideas even in the face of 10 pages of data showing it's hurting their wallet. =]

The key of course is to find the balance and make it look nice AND convert/retain. But it takes a client with the right mindset to do that for easily.

in my experience there are 2 types of designers:


Designer A: Oh ok you want a splash page for teen content? cool ill have it done in 24hrs. Talk to you later.


Designer B: Oh you want a teen splash page? Send me samples so i can match the theme with the particular girls you want me to use .. what type of text would you like? What type of programs are you offering? May i suggest some text to add? Would you like a hardcore or more subtle theme? What payment plan did you have in mind? ... Ok i have everything i need, my price is $x and my timeframe is "X" days ... i can begin work on the 24th when i finish this job im working on now. Is that ok with you?

BTW id go with designer B who has listened to all my needs, made suggestions, worked with me on payment terms, and layed out his exact schedule without over promising and under delivering.

Ok good point i had not ocnsidered.

I have not yet relied on a designers ideas for conversion. As a matter of fact ive never been offered any, lol

The designers i work with just "draw my dream" so to say. They do what i lay out for them without asking questions.

You're forgetting the third type(s) that gets on the boards and says:

1st Guy: "I'll do it for $85. Paypal me now!"

2nd guy: "No me... $60."

3rd guy: "I want to start a portfolio I'll do it free!"

--

Guy 1 does decent work but likely is desperate for work because he only does $85 worth of value, he overbooks himself, has no time and wonders why he still can't pay his bills.

Guy 2 same as guy 1 but 5 years younger.

Guy 3 barely speaks English and you get a funny fucking design as a result.


=]

lil2rich4u2 - We're designer type 'B'
The consolutations with the client are very important, if you don't know exactly what they want then how are you going to produce something they like?

yea but not me, i ALWAYS get ripped. So often i dont even complain anymore, LOL!!!

shit i paid $3k for www.pleasuredvds.com

Came complete with custom scripts to manage the backend and inventory, but still rather pricey i think, heh

I don't think too many designers have a clue about conversion and retention and all that. Quite a few of the good ones run paysites but I ften see them think that they can solve sales issues with their design skills. Ever since I got into this game I've been a numbers junkie and so I've kept data on every little minute aspect of the work. I catch alot of shit from a few other people in the design side saying my guarantee is BS, but any client who has ever worked with me can get on here and tell you why I can offer it and how. I'm not saying I'm any smarter than anyone else, or even better with Photoshop... it's just a matter of collecting data and having the wisdom to use it.

Or I'm a complete schmuck. Either way I'm having a good time. =]

mmm exactly the way i think.

If you didnt here my needs, ask me questions, show me samples, listen to my details, read my 10 emails per day ... how the hell are you gonna know what i had in mind when i hired you? lol

Excelelent to see a designers point of view that maches mine!



P.S ass kissing does help, i just bookmarked his site! :thumbsup

Sometimes the client is indecisive, or doesn't have a fucking clue what he wants.

Sometimes the client gives you shitty content and expects immaculate results.

Sometimes the client makes you wait 6 months to get you the content, then gets upset when you don't have their job done one day later.

Sometimes.. oh fuck it. I've got dozens more.. but I'd only bring up too many bad memories.

Hi,

good points mentioned by everyone here.

at webinc our policy is no one ever pays upfront, they usually pay when the project is completed or almost done.

We have only been burnt 1 time in all these years and that was by an asshole who we found out later was a total scam.

Most customers think it's pretty cool that they get to see the finished product before they pay. Of course you guys know me, I am a hard ass when it comes to payment. When the project is done and approved, I expect payment ASAP. You eat dinner out, you pay for it.

I am been known on occasion like 3 times to have to come to the boards and be an asshole. I don't like being a bill collector, told that 2 one client today, but it's my job..

Hats off to Blue Design, Mark, and Amp, good people, good work :)

peace

Todd

sometimes the client is paying your bills so you should STFU and deal with his shit

sometimes your client can NOT refer you business and end up costing you money unless you deal with his nonsense.

sometimes your client .. ahh fuck it, lol

so true bro....


hehehe.... well yeah, I had a kind of a unique situation. :winkwink: I can't remember a single client ever telling me a design simply was bad or wrong or no good or anything like that... there's almost always some little changes or modifications, but everything I've ever done has come back a winner with the clients... nothing was ever delivered unapproved. My only problems were all non-payment issues, which was really out of my control.

It's not a hard concept: Client hires designer. Designer designs. Clients pays designer. designer delivers product. Why the payment part was overlooked in a few cases, I don't understand. But I always dealt with it one way or another. I usually gave more than generous time... in most cases several months, to make good on payment. Failing that, I raised hell until either payment was made or I felt satisfied with the resulting flame. (then resold it anyway)

It all really comes down to people keeping their word. Hell, I've given away far more work than I've been burned on. But I live by the rule that people must keep their word. If you don't have honor, you got nothing. A person might burn through other people like there's no tomorrow and no consequences... some people actually think ripping people off is no big deal. But burn through me once, and it'll haunt you forever. I never forget, and I rarely forgive. And I'm a vengeful son-of-a-bitch. :)

wtf did i ever do to you guys???





































j/k ..... what? you think yall can crack on me and i cant?? LOL!!

Can i ask for spam?

What exactly is this guarentee?

LOL :),

Actually, I was a guy doing a project with Larry Flynts son or something. Not flytns fault at all, but this guy was a total dick head..

On another point, we strive for excellent customer service at webinc.com, we belive that if the customer gets what he or she wants, is happy, he or she will be back and refer others back..

It's all about the service you give. Sure alot of ppl might have to wait a month or more for us to start on the project, but we do let them know ahead of time
--------------------

wtf did i ever do to you guys???

I must admit I hate other designers, I don't like hardly any of them.

Only 2 I think are "good".

Majority of designers out there do not know there value and the destruction they have caused on a valuable profession that is an incredible segment for the industry. The profession yeilded easily 6 figure incomes back in the day.

Now there are Pseudo designer's and posers everywhere with no respect for what there "services" generate or how hard they work for a measily 5 bucks. They leave the businessmen agrivated by building shit that does nothing often enough, they copy tours other peoples tours and resell em. Overall it is safe to say a majority of professional businessmen regard designers as the scum of the industry since they undersell themselves so badly.

It is odd to laugh and cry at the same time. However everytime I see a "designer" posting 20 banners for 5 bucks. What a dick, what a loser, what an idiot is all I can think.

Hi Alien,

damm I hope our company is one of the 2 you like :)

Well said though, to be ohnest I know personally that most of our site designs are worth more coin, i.e. 2k, 2500.00, etc. but in this ever changing market and bad economy, what can we do. Sure we have competition to worry about, etc.

People used to get pissed at me saying, Todd WTF are you doing selling 100 banners for $799.00, I said well out of 9 people on the team, we have 2 banner ppl who only do banners and ads, I want to get part of this market share.
----------------------

Only 2 I think are "good

hmm on another note ...

a graphics guy im using (wont name him) is doing a project for a certain site for me.

Today i went into his "clients" folder on his domain to see the status (he lets us go look)

Well in there i see this ...

/rich/project.html
/dan/project.html
/mike/project.html


Obviously all clients of his .... i found a site in another clients folder (ok i was nosey, sue me) and it had same sponsor, color, theme, and site name as the one he is making for me!

Basically all he did was change the layout for this other guy.


I have not confronted him about that, and im sure theres a reason or whatever.

BUT .... how does a customer prevent this?

How do i know your going to make me a $1k splash, and not change a few words and hand it to someone else?

Really, well said. If you go onto forums like WHT, the "designers" work for $5 for a complete layout. Then other potential clients think that $5 is close to the industry standard.

If you hit http://www.lumyr.com there is a popup that talks about it.

Essentially though I sit down (or cyber sit as it were) with each client before I do a job and work out what they are shooting for with conversion and/or retention and when we agree on a number that is realistic to their traffic base and amount of content, then I work the design and if needed reqork it or do another one or whatever it takes to meet your targetted goals. I will advise every step of the way on what elements I think need to be there and why and especially with members areas I can go into specific content types that increase user response and make the iste more sticky. If I wasn't close every first time, I couldn't do this obviously or I'd be buried in redos. Also sometimes I get clients who want to pay the lesser fee and just get graphic work done to spec without any guarantee because they know their own specs will convert/retain just fine.

So to put it in as samll a nutshell as possible, hiring me to do a design on the guarantee is kinda like having a temporary business partner with a shit ton of experience who is willing to share everything he knows so you make money.

Is that spammy enough for ya? =]

Lill,

that is bs totally, not the part about they look the same, well that is too, but for you to deal with, but for you to be able to see in his work dir. this designer should get a clue. People want there designs usually private until they release them to the public, webmasters, etc.

I will admit in the past when we did a portfolio update, we did include a couple of projects, that we later took out due to them not being released yet, our mistake and the client didn't make a big deal about it.

ahem

This logic and hate can be pointed to any part of any industry.

I also work in finance for wells fargo. I can say i HATE amaeriquest for offering lowerr ates than us ... but thats life, and thats what keeps the market competitive.

I cant even sell my DVD collection on ebay because of the competition ... they sell so cheap i cant get rid of mine for a profit.


Would fit into any part of any business ..... thats life man.

Fact is, if im an out of work designer, or script kiddie ... im going to work for peanuts if needed to feed my kids.

:2 cents: