Do you think America is imploding?
 

With all the shit that's been going on for the past 10-15 years, and the slow deterioration of our rights through the use of inadvertant mind control - do you think the empire is falling?

"If you want to picture the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face ? for ever."

hope so

In flux yes...falling no.

Hybrid,

Go read about slavery, Susan B Anthony, prohibition, japanese internment, McCarthyism, the civil rights movement, Jackie Robinson, and the Vietnam draft. Do we have more rights or less?

I'm actually reading The People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn right now. Very interesting book.

While yes, in retrospect, it seemed we are a lot better off, oppression always conforms itself to society. Same with religion.

Maybe we've been imploding since the beginning.

Sweeeeeet....

Too bad most people today think Big Brother is a wacky reality show, and nothing more...

Things are bad, and going to get worse. But if history repeats, as it tends to do, there will be a backlash. The '10's may be very kick-ass...

But wait we haven't had vomitoriums yet. The Roman empire had orgies and vomitoriums, before they fell.

If history repeats itself, we mirror the Romans. In fact, we are the only other empire to cover our hearts with our right hands during ceremonies... Just like the Romans.

May we fall with grace and clout. But god dammit I want vomitoriums first!

Let me ask you this, RedShoe. The last time you were doubled over the porcelain throne heaving your nachos, did you think: I want to permanently consecrate part of my home to this delicious experience?

Well, neither did the Romans. While there was something called a vomitorium (from the Latin vomitus, past participle of vomere, to vomit), it wasn't a room set aside to vomit in. Rather a vomitorium was a passageway in an amphitheater or theater that opened into a tier of seats from below or behind. The vomitoria of the Colosseum in Rome were so well designed that it's said the immense venue, which seated at least 50,000, could fill in 15 minutes. (There were 80 entrances at ground level, 76 for ordinary spectators and 4 for the imperial family.) The vomitoria deposited mobs of people into their seats and afterward disgorged them with equal abruptness into the streets--whence, presumably, the name.

That's not to say the Romans were unfamiliar with throwing up, or that they never did so on purpose. On the contrary, in ancient times vomiting seems to have been a standard part of the fine-dining experience. In his Moral Epistles the Roman philosopher Seneca writes, Cum ad cenandum discubuimus, alius sputa deterget, alius reliquias temulentorum [toro] subditus colligit, "When we recline at a banquet, one [slave] wipes up the spittle; another, situated beneath [the table], collects the leavings of the drunks." OK, it doesn't literally say puke, but come on. The orator Cicero, in Pro Rege Deiotaro, says matter-of-factly that Julius Caesar "expressed a desire to vomit after dinner"(vomere post cenam te velle dixisses), and elsewhere suggests that the dictator took emetics for this purpose. Caesar's hosts wanted to take him to the bathroom, since they supposedly had a squad of assassins waiting there (at the time of Cicero's speech, King Deiotarus was on trial for this alleged attempt on Caesar's life), but he decided to go to his bedroom instead. Nowhere does Cicero say anything about a "vomitorium."

You get the picture. The Romans weren't shy about vomiting, and they had vomitoria--but they didn't do the former in the latter. The conflation of the two appears to be a recent error. The Oxford English Dictionary cites Aldous Huxley using the term incorrectly in 1923, with the stern comment "erron." Urban historian Lewis Mumford makes a similar screwup in The City in History (1961), claiming that the vomitoria of the amphitheaters were named after the mythical dining room appurtenances. So you're in distinguished company, Christine, but still misinformed.

Probably I should leave it at that. But perhaps all this talk of vomiting has you feeling . . . strangely excited. Perhaps I also need to fill out the bottom couple inches of the column. Either way, I'm obliged to inform you about a condition known as emetophilia, which is sexual arousal in response to vomit or vomiting. I won't claim it's a major phenomenon at the moment. I could only find one pre-Internet article in a medical journal ("Erotic Vomiting," Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1982), which calls it "a previously unreported aberration." A quick on-line search suggests emetophilia has a long way to go before it catches up with Japanese tentacle porn. But today's fringe practice is tomorrow's Newsweek cover. I say forewarned is forearmed.

--CECIL ADAMS

Tell that to the Czechs, Poles, Russians, Jews, Ukranians, Iraqis, and the Romanians.

When America was founded there were only two democracies in the world. Now two-thirds of the world's governments have free elections, more than double what it was just a generation ago.

Ten years after 1984, the Soviet System was gone and hundreds of millions of people governed themselves and voted in elections.
Orwell was not a prophet but a fiction writer.

Humankind's inalienable rights are shining through. Everywhere in the world, tyranny is being replaced by consensual governments. Everywhere man is becoming free where once he was chained.

How does it end?

You know, the other day I saw this on a sign at a Sonic's close by:

"Freedom Sticks are American."

Propoganda always has, and always will be a tool for subtle tyranny.

You have to read between the lines.

And this is some kind of movie script you're working on? PG I hope.

Oh, I was just paraphrasing Eddie Izzard (the comedian) I only heard him say vomitoriums and assumed it was like a public restroom but instead of takin' a piss, you leave a puke.

Care to expand on "all the shit that's been going on for the past 10-15 years"?

Care to expand on "deterioration of our rights"?

Care to explain what "inadvertent mind control" means?

I'm not talking about metaphorical chains. I'm talking about real ones, the kind where they catch you, lock you up and sell you, throw you in a ship, carry you to a distant land and work you 18 hours a day until you die from the misery.

150 years ago in America most blacks were slaves and women were second class citizens that couldn't vote.

About fifty years ago blacks in the South couldn't go to public school with the white kids, couldn't play in professional sports, women were second class citizens that stayed at home and cleaned the house and Joe McCarthy was asking people if they have or ever were.

A little over fifty years ago Japanese citizens in the US and Canada were dragged from their homes and locked away in concentration camps until after the war is over.

Tell me, which lines are you reading between? The question isn't are things perfect. The question is whether they are better. They are. Much better.

Keep reading the book.

http://news.google.com/news/gnworldleftnav.html

Most of these news stories are about death, dying, disease, pain, war, nuclear threat...how exactly is this better if you don't mind explaining?

You're the one with the script

What don't you believe? That the Soviet Union collapsed, that the Berlin Wall has fallen, that there were only two democracies in the world in 1790, that two-thirds of the world's countries today have free elections but only one third was half a century ago?

Yes someone posted some un-informed crap, I did a quick search and came up with something that sounded much more reasonable than specially built rooms dedicated to puking. Like the roman empire was built by idiots, that's why its legacies surived 2000 years.

I think you are maybe too optimistic about the future under the current leadership, that's all.

The current leadership is a temp position.

We're discussing "the slow deterioration of our rights". Don't change the subject. Everybody dies. 90% of the world has more rights today than they did one hundred fifty years ago.

Go vote, choose your job, and be happy your wife can too. In the meantime, your day to day life is more likely better than it ever would have been a few hundred years ago.

Just as an aside on your attempt to change the subject, maybe one day a lot more than 50 million people that died in world war II will die in world war III. Man isn't any better. he's the same miserable wretch he's always been and he's learned to kill more efficiently. On the other hand, the western way is prevailing, technology allows you to travel from one side of the world to the other, entertainment is a whole hell of a lot better than sitting in a campfire listening to Eugene tell his fishing story. I don't have to tell you the rest. You know the world is better. You see it every day.

We're talking about rights and political systems though.

I'm going to go have cup of coffee and go to the beach. Have a nice day, Joseph.

Colin, I admire your optimism, and I share it to a large degree. Still, I am very concerned about the direction the US government is taking right now. And when I refer to the US gov, I'm talking about the "of the people, by the people" gov. It appears to me that there are a lot of people in this country who don't believe or don't care that they are responsible for our leadership. A little apathy goes a long way.

As the rest of the world discovers or embraces more freedom, the US seems to be on a down-hill slide. I do think this will turn around; I just hope it's soon, or we'll have a lot of ground to recover.

Hope I'm making sense; it's late. :)

A quick Google search shows that there were at least 3 "liberal democracies" in 1790 - France, Switzerland, and the United States. Maybe there were even more democracies than that worldwide at that time, but those come up right away on google when you search for 1790.

Where did you get your stats?

The import of the point is there are many more Democratic Republics in the world at this point in time. To my knowledge there has never been a Democracy.

It?s not imploding. Yet:

It?s getting more organized. The heart of this country is the stock market. We the sheeple don?t really matter any more as long as we pay our taxes. The government gets their 25% payroll tax if a company employs you. This is correct if you work for a company that company has to also pay the government 25% of your income. Then if you pay your taxes you are going to get nailed for another 28% pus and average of state taxes of 8%. So for every day you bust your ass for a company the government is earning 61%. You get to keep the 39%. Now if you buy any thing from gas, beer, or a phone call you are also taxed. Let?s say 7%? This leaves 32% of your net income. Now if you are able to live on 20% of your income and you put the 12% in the bank. If that 12% earned any money you are taxed on the earned interest.

Where is all the tax dollars the government taking from you going? It?s for damn sure not all going to bettering the lives of Americans. Fortune magazine did a study some year?s back that if every American paid a flat tax of 15% this would happen. The government would get so much liquid cash it would solve our national dept in three months. Why don?t we do this? Because there are billions of earned income in jobs for tax attorneys, accountants, loan institutions, government jobs (IRS), etc. Also, that 46% extra income for that average American would flood the tangible market place. The government does not want this due to 60% of what Americans buy is made in other countries. And with the free trade agreement it would take control away from our government.

It?s not imploding yet because we the ?sheeple? are to stupid to wake up and do some thing about it.

In 10 years from now 70% of you hard earned money will be going to the government.

To the best of my knowledge the US citizen pays less in taxes than the citizens of the European countries and most of the industrialized nations of the world.

Yes I think it will be falling in the next 2 decades, maily of economical reasons, e.g. lack of trust from 'partner' countries.

Memory.

I didn't count Revolutionary France. I thought it murky. Who elected Louis XVI? Tough question for a democracy. Who elected the king?

Interesting chart you found from

Fukuyama's book

I think that summarizes nicely the spread of democracy.

Yes, Republics.

Every decade has it's share of its doomsayers. Hit some used and rare bookstores and you'll find quite a few titles like "The great coming depression", "The coming fall of America", etc.

The way you few are talking you have to wonder how America ever survived the Revolution, the Civil War, the Depression, OPEC oil embargo, Vietnam, McCarthyism, the Red Scare, internment, Alien and Sedition Acts, 1812, 1982 recession, 1973 stock market, October 1987, Pearl Harbor, September 11. A little perspective is important.

You're all overreacting to a president and comgress you don't like. We have elections every two and four years. Take a deep breath. In a few years the Democrats will be back in power and the Republicans will think it's the end of the world. This cycle of fear never ends.

Pope Innocent III predicted the end of the world in 1284. He was wrong. So are you.

Colin
I do not know where you get your figures from but this says otherwise;

Was found here, Where to do Research. That page lists 86 out of 121.

Then you have to consider is some of the countries listed as democracies are one party countries. due to the fact that the largest ethnic tribe will always vote for who ever is puts forward.

Then consider how mant of those countries are ruled by the wealthy and large corperations, because he who spends the most wins.

To get back to the thread, I would agree that the US is becoming less free by the year. The information most Americans recieve is what the Media Moguls want to tell them.

Remember the scene in the film "The Insider" where Pacino's character wants to tell the US that the seven CEOs of the seven largest tobacco companies had lied to a Congressional Hearing?

He was stopped from telling the truth, do you think that is an isolated incident or general? If it's general then with all the "Freedom of Information" acts the US has, they mean nothing.

Whether this leads to a downfall of the Empire or a strengthening only time will tell.

Here's the race . Let me know when it's over. American economy can lose 80% of it's value and still be number two in the word. Probably would still be number one because Japan would fall too.

I am 45 years old. Please make a list of the freedoms that I have lost in my 45 years. If you cannot then I will assume that I am as free as I was at birth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hybrid
With all the shit that's been going on for the past 10-15 years, and the slow deterioration of our rights through the use of inadvertant mind control - do you think the empire is falling? [/
quote]

Inadvertent??? Please :1orglaugh

:1orglaugh







No seriously, :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

You forgot the white man.

Whites in servitude and white slaves were just as common as black slaves and were under the same amount of opression. Due to the overwhelming numbers of blacks that were being brought in and the conflict with the native americans, the wealthy; those in power, created a middle class to pit the white servants against the blacks and indians.

If you had no land of your own, you had no rights. Black, white, male or female. The middle class was created by the rich to establish a connection with their enemies: the poor.

White slaves were allowed freedom after a certain amount of time, for the most part; blacks were not. When the white slaves/servants became free, the rich intentionally granted them pounds of food and a piece of land. They did this to create a division between the poor, thus diverting more unified rebellions.

As such, they then created a middle class to give these whites a sense of worth and establish a hierarchy in American society based on racism. After time, this racism faded, while the middle class flourished.

Now, at this point in time, we lack unity amongst ourselves. Why? Because society percieves no enemy from within. Everytime we start to recognize a pattern, our attention is diverted away to some global issue. The rich nowadays see this as an opportunity to exploit the poor and middle class. They also have technology (computers) that enable them to not only manipulate more avenues, but also track progress, working the poeple harder for results.

This is what I mean by deterioration. The middle class is being wiped out as I type this. The rich is accumulating more control on a "metaphorical" level, which in my opinion is more dangerous than the literal chains you were referring to. Why? Because when we can percieve no threat with our senses, we are less inclined to resist.

Did you know that the average executive in America, as of 2000 is payed more than 500 times what the average american worker is paid? In the 70's it was only 46 times that.

Did you also know that 95% of the crime in this country is white collar crime, and only 5% is 'physical' crime (rape, violence, murder).

Another one: While the wages of Americans has increased, our buying power keeps our dollar's actual worth at around 7-8 dollars per hour.

Open your eyes, there's a lot more going on than you're taught in school.

Since Charly has not prepared a list maybe you can. :1orglaugh

Seriously. :1orglaugh

Well...no list has been forthcoming so I have to assume that I have not lost any freedom and freedom is alive and well in the USA.

The right to think for yourself.

It is not lost...I do that every day...it is a given.

"Less free" means you are comparing the current state to the past state.

Is it less free today than when millions were enslaved?

Is it less free today than when women couldn't vote?

Is it less free today than when it was illegal to drink alcohol?

Is it less free than when the McCarran Act was passed?

Is it less free today than when 100,000 Japanese
Americans were forced into camps?

Is it less free today than when Rosa Parks was arrested for sitting at the front of the bus?

We've gone from categorical denial of rights and freedoms to isolated incidents. Freedom up. Tyranny down/

True for the 17th century. You are strengthening my case. Thanks. :-)

http://www.linkification.com/linked/wrong.jpg

In the US we not only think for ourselves but can say it out loud too. See anyone getting arrested in America for denying the holocaust? Nope.

theking owns you guys.

I've been fucking around all morning. It's the weekend. Catch ya' all later

http://www.linkification.com/linked/slut.gif

I didn't read the article yet. So 121 out of 192 are defined as "electoral democracies"? That's 63%. I said 2/3. That's 66%. They must have missed a handful. ;-)

Let's look at the whole range of value. In two hundred years, the world has gone from 2 or 3 democracies to between 86 and 121 depending on how you define democracy. Which argument does this support?

The sky is falling. I'm hiring a team of gophers to dig me a burrow so I can be safe.

Eddie Izzard is awesome :thumbsup