Would you support a GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME for all Americans?

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    I help you SUCCEED
    • Nov 2003
    • 32189
    #1

    Would you support a GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME for all Americans?

    The unconditional basic income (UBI) is supposed to fix the following problems

    If you're liberal, you might like this because:

    Lifts 50M Americans out of poverty overnight
    Standardizes all government welfare

    If you're conservative, you might like this because:

    Eliminates tons of bureaucracy, waste, corruption, and BS rent-seeking
    Resets all class-based grievances
    Probably MUCH CHEAPER than current system
    Caps spending and boosts purchasing power in some segments of the population and this can spur parts of the economy

    Read more about this idea before you post a response to the question of this post http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...d-basic-income
    Tags: None
    • L-Pink
      working on my tan
      • Mar 2005
      • 39151
      #2
      So everyone regardless of income gets a check?

        Comment

        • kane
          Too lazy to set a custom title
          • Aug 2001
          • 20684
          #3
          I was reading a piece the other day that said if they guaranteed every American an income of at least 22K per year using a system where you would get less government money the more you made it would actually be cheaper for the government than the current welfare system that we have in place.

          Supposedly there are economist who say it would not hurt our economy nor would it have a big impact on inflation. I'm not so sure about that, but it sounded like an interesting potential solution to some problems.

            Comment

            • DWB
              Registered User
              • Jul 2003
              • 31779
              #4
              I think Switzerland is about to do this, or vote on it. $2500 for each citizen per month or something like that.

              I think the USA could do this with no problem if they cut back on policing the world and wasteful spending. I would support it.

                Comment

                • L-Pink
                  working on my tan
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 39151
                  #5
                  At what age would this guaranteed income kick in?

                    Comment

                    • scuba steve
                      Confirmed User
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 1888
                      #6
                      would this replace the other government subsidized programs like welfare, food stamps, etc?

                        Comment

                        • AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
                          Purveyor, Fine Asian Porn
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 38323
                          #7
                          I strongly support Universal/Unconditional/Guaranteed Basic Income:









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                            Comment

                            • Vendzilla
                              Biker Gnome
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 23200
                              #8
                              I think it's great, but would end up limiting the government so they will never vote it in, they wouldn't be able to lie and take claim for the great things they think they have done!!!
                              Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
                              think about that

                                Comment

                                • edgeprod
                                  Permanently Gone
                                  • Mar 2004
                                  • 10019
                                  #9
                                  Eh. It'd be nice if you could refuse it in exchange for a discount on your taxes.

                                    Comment

                                    • keysync
                                      Living the Dream
                                      • Sep 2011
                                      • 2375
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by edgeprod
                                      Eh. It'd be nice if you could refuse it in exchange for a discount on your taxes.
                                      Just take it and call it a down payment on your tax bill.

                                      I would support it, IF it was actually cheaper than the current system and left out ALL illegal aliens. 100% US Citizens only.


                                        Comment

                                        • kane
                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                          • Aug 2001
                                          • 20684
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by scuba steve
                                          would this replace the other government subsidized programs like welfare, food stamps, etc?
                                          The story I read said it would. If you made less than a certain amount of money you would be guaranteed a certain amount per month. That amount would go as much as $22,000 per year. If you had a job you could still qualify to get money. How much you would get would be determined by how much you made.

                                          This would replace food stamps, welfare checks etc.

                                            Comment

                                            • Rochard
                                              Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                              • Dec 2001
                                              • 75770
                                              #12
                                              I think this is horrible. We cannot reward people for not trying.

                                              I have a friend who has been disability for twenty years - both the US Army and the US Post Office. Oddly enough he can't work, but he can cut his own grass. Bullshit, he's milking the system. And if you offer up $22k for doing nothing, a lot more people will take advantage of it.
                                              Herschel Savage
                                              Brooklyn, NY

                                                Comment

                                                • wehateporn
                                                  Promoting Debate on GFY
                                                  • Apr 2007
                                                  • 27176
                                                  #13
                                                  When Rothschild Magazine tells you something, they tell you for a reason, they have their own agenda, normally it's not for your own benefit.

                                                  Perhaps they want countries to take out loans from them to pay for this
                                                  Last edited by wehateporn; 11-19-2013, 01:44 PM.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • TheStout
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Jul 2007
                                                      • 2089
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by Rochard
                                                      I think this is horrible. We cannot reward people for not trying.

                                                      I have a friend who has been disability for twenty years - both the US Army and the US Post Office. Oddly enough he can't work, but he can cut his own grass. Bullshit, he's milking the system. And if you offer up $22k for doing nothing, a lot more people will take advantage of it.
                                                      There are people that game every system. To suggest more people would game this system than the current system with no stats to back it up is pointless. I have a friend that was on welfare, worked hard and got off it. Does that mean because I have a friend that did not game the system it would work? Its safe to say the current system has flaws. If this works in Switzerland it could get some legs.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • kane
                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                          • Aug 2001
                                                          • 20684
                                                          #15
                                                          Originally posted by Rochard
                                                          I think this is horrible. We cannot reward people for not trying.

                                                          I have a friend who has been disability for twenty years - both the US Army and the US Post Office. Oddly enough he can't work, but he can cut his own grass. Bullshit, he's milking the system. And if you offer up $22k for doing nothing, a lot more people will take advantage of it.
                                                          The idea is that many people who are milking the system are getting more than $22K each year. Also, it would pay out even when you started working so you could earn more and in theory give you an incentive to work even more.

                                                          Here is the breakdown I found of one suggested way it could be paid out.

                                                          Personal Income Total Income Taxpayer Cost
                                                          0 22,000 22,000
                                                          5,000 24,500 19,500
                                                          10,000 27,000 17,000
                                                          15,000 29,500 14,500
                                                          22,000 33,000 11,000
                                                          30,000 37,000 7,000
                                                          40,000 42,000 2,000
                                                          44,000 44,000 0

                                                          My chart is all messed up so it is a little hard to read.

                                                          This way if you got a job working full time for minimum wage you would make around $15K per year before taxes. This system, instead of also giving you food stamps, child care help, housing help and other benefits would just give you another $14.5K so you would have an income level that allowed you to live better and it would cost the government less.
                                                          Last edited by kane; 11-19-2013, 01:56 PM.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • keysync
                                                              Living the Dream
                                                              • Sep 2011
                                                              • 2375
                                                              #16
                                                              That article the OP posted said that it didn't change over the range of income. The poorest would receive the same check a billionaire would.


                                                                Comment

                                                                • kane
                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                  • Aug 2001
                                                                  • 20684
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Originally posted by keysync
                                                                  That article the OP posted said that it didn't change over the range of income. The poorest would receive the same check a billionaire would.
                                                                  Right. There are a lot of different options out there.

                                                                  Some say you get the same amount no matter who you are. Others suggest it will work better if you guarantee a certain level of income, but ween it off as a person gets a job and has more personal income.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Barry-xlovecam
                                                                      It's 42
                                                                      • Jun 2010
                                                                      • 18083
                                                                      #18
                                                                      No, 10%? of Americans would have a new reason why not to work.

                                                                      As a stipend, I could see its abuse in employers paying their workers substandard wages so the workers would qualify for government support payments.

                                                                      Even if the economics would make sense -- if a person gets $22,000/yr from the taxpayers they should sweep the sidewalks or pick up trash on the highway if they are physically able to work -- no free ride ...

                                                                      If their gross income is over $22,000 (single person) why give them money for nothing? Maybe, some free education or something beneficial to society.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • kane
                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                          • Aug 2001
                                                                          • 20684
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Originally posted by Barry-xlovecam
                                                                          No, 10%? of Americans would have a new reason why not to work.

                                                                          As a stipend, I could see its abuse in employers paying their workers substandard wages so the workers would qualify for government support payments.

                                                                          Even if the economics would make sense -- if a person gets $22,000/yr from the taxpayers they should sweep the sidewalks or pick up trash on the highway if they are physically able to work -- no free ride ...

                                                                          If their gross income is over $22,000 (single person) why give them money for nothing? Maybe, some free education or something beneficial to society.
                                                                          You could make the argument that the combination of various welfare programs and the minimum wage already allow employers to pay substandard wages. Obviously, this doesn't happen in every business, but the stats show that the average Wal Mart store costs the tax payers $900K per year because many of the people that work there also get food stamps, housing assistance, child are assistance etc. The same goes for most fast food places, many retail and service jobs etc.

                                                                          Sure, many of these jobs are not meant to raise a family on and are intended for people just starting out, but in reality there are a lot people working those jobs who are older and are trying to take care of families.

                                                                          With welfare systems in place a person can work for a low wage and they have little incentive to try to make more because they will end up in that bubble where making more means less welfare benefits so it actually makes more financial sense for them to stay at the lower paying job. If there were no welfare programs it could force companies to pay more because people would demand a livable wage since there would be no other option.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • HerPimp
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Mar 2006
                                                                              • 1197
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Give the lazy money so they do not do crime, do it.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • bhutocracy
                                                                                  Not making A Comeback
                                                                                  • Dec 2001
                                                                                  • 10218
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Originally posted by Barry-xlovecam

                                                                                  Even if the economics would make sense -- if a person gets $22,000/yr from the taxpayers they should sweep the sidewalks or pick up trash on the highway if they are physically able to work -- no free ride ...

                                                                                  If their gross income is over $22,000 (single person) why give them money for nothing? Maybe, some free education or something beneficial to society.
                                                                                  A single working age person should have to do SOMETHING to get it. I'm guessing there is only so much trash or sidewalks to sweep though and then you start adding administration costs into the picture again to employ people to manage trash cleaning crews and the paperwork involved. It would also no doubt clash with the prison industrial system where that kind of busy work is income for them. If the economics worked then sure, you can't argue with a factual outcome should it work out that way.. but you'd want people to have to do SOMETHING and the incentivization structure has to ensure that it's still far more beneficial to take on a 15k minimum wage job than do nothing at all. If you can do nothing at all for 22k and work full time for 30k it's not really incentivizing people to work.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Rochard
                                                                                      Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                                                      • 75770
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by kane
                                                                                      The idea is that many people who are milking the system are getting more than $22K each year. Also, it would pay out even when you started working so you could earn more and in theory give you an incentive to work even more.

                                                                                      Here is the breakdown I found of one suggested way it could be paid out.

                                                                                      Personal Income Total Income Taxpayer Cost
                                                                                      0 22,000 22,000
                                                                                      5,000 24,500 19,500
                                                                                      10,000 27,000 17,000
                                                                                      15,000 29,500 14,500
                                                                                      22,000 33,000 11,000
                                                                                      30,000 37,000 7,000
                                                                                      40,000 42,000 2,000
                                                                                      44,000 44,000 0

                                                                                      My chart is all messed up so it is a little hard to read.

                                                                                      This way if you got a job working full time for minimum wage you would make around $15K per year before taxes. This system, instead of also giving you food stamps, child care help, housing help and other benefits would just give you another $14.5K so you would have an income level that allowed you to live better and it would cost the government less.
                                                                                      But there is no incentive to do better. People will just coast on $22k a year.

                                                                                      My friend does this, which is why he is no longer my friend. He has a serious medical condition but it hasn't affected him in fifteen years. There is no reason why he can't work, but why bother - He makes $30k a year and that's barely enough for him to live off of. But there is no inncentive for him to get a job and make money because he's getting by and doesn't have to work.

                                                                                      Might be cheaper for us, but it will create an entire class of people who said "Fuck it, I don't want to work and I don't have to".
                                                                                      Herschel Savage
                                                                                      Brooklyn, NY

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • mineistaken
                                                                                          See signature :)
                                                                                          • Apr 2007
                                                                                          • 29656
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Cool, be lazy, you would get guaranteed income anyway. That should definitely motivate people... Not. the less motivated and forward going people the less forward going country.

                                                                                          Another idea of moronic liberals?

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • MaDalton
                                                                                              I am Amazing Content!
                                                                                              • Feb 2004
                                                                                              • 39865
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              what would be the incentive for working?
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                                                                                                • mineistaken
                                                                                                  See signature :)
                                                                                                  • Apr 2007
                                                                                                  • 29656
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Oh and OP advocated 20$ per hour wage for mcdonalds workers. Makes sense now.

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • DAMNMAN
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Dec 2002
                                                                                                      • 1440
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Shit playa, we can't even get real health care up in bis bitch!!!!
                                                                                                      email: zmaster (at) earthlink.net
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                                                                                                      One less god!!!
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                                                                                                        • edgeprod
                                                                                                          Permanently Gone
                                                                                                          • Mar 2004
                                                                                                          • 10019
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by keysync
                                                                                                          Just take it and call it a down payment on your tax bill.
                                                                                                          Yeah, but then it's INCOME .. which gets taxed.

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • Minte
                                                                                                              Babemeister
                                                                                                              • Jun 2001
                                                                                                              • 7082
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by Rochard
                                                                                                              But there is no incentive to do better. People will just coast on $22k a year.

                                                                                                              My friend does this, which is why he is no longer my friend. He has a serious medical condition but it hasn't affected him in fifteen years. There is no reason why he can't work, but why bother - He makes $30k a year and that's barely enough for him to live off of. But there is no inncentive for him to get a job and make money because he's getting by and doesn't have to work.

                                                                                                              Might be cheaper for us, but it will create an entire class of people who said "Fuck it, I don't want to work and I don't have to".
                                                                                                              11.19.13 This is a date to remember. I agree with Rochard!
                                                                                                              You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • TheeRoly
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Oct 2012
                                                                                                                  • 150
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by DAMNMAN
                                                                                                                  Shit playa, we can't even get real health care up in bis bitch!!!!
                                                                                                                  LOL quoted for truth

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • kane
                                                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                      • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                      • 20684
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Rochard
                                                                                                                      But there is no incentive to do better. People will just coast on $22k a year.

                                                                                                                      My friend does this, which is why he is no longer my friend. He has a serious medical condition but it hasn't affected him in fifteen years. There is no reason why he can't work, but why bother - He makes $30k a year and that's barely enough for him to live off of. But there is no inncentive for him to get a job and make money because he's getting by and doesn't have to work.

                                                                                                                      Might be cheaper for us, but it will create an entire class of people who said "Fuck it, I don't want to work and I don't have to".
                                                                                                                      I personally have a lot of reservations as to whether it would work or not. There is a chance that you are correct and many people would just say fuck it and collect their $22K a year and do nothing. I think we would see many young people who get out of high school just saying fuck it. At that age $22K seems like a lot of money and you could just hang out with your friends and do whatever you wanted.

                                                                                                                      All that said, $22K isn't that much in most areas of the country so the quality of your life would not be very good. Most people would be motivated to at least put some effort into things and better themselves. As things are right now there is a segment of the population that has figured out how to game the system and just lives off of it because they are too lazy to work. Those people would continue to exist. The real question is how many more would choose to live off the system? I don't know that number.

                                                                                                                      I personally think it would motivate a decent number of people. Right now if you are making minimum wage and getting welfare help you have very little incentive to better yourself because it isn't going to be easy. You will quickly find yourself in the welfare bubble where you make too much to get welfare, but not enough to live well. Many people making $15K-$18K per year can't imagine how they can get to $40K per year without getting a degree or getting lucky. So they just don't try. With this system they could actually see a path and maybe getting some success early on would spur them to work harder and achieve more.

                                                                                                                      Maybe I am dead wrong, I don't know. I just like thinking outside the box when it comes to some solutions. The number of people on welfare and government assistance is just going up and up and up. Clearly the current system isn't working to well.

                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                        • mikesinner
                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                          • Nov 2005
                                                                                                                          • 5646
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          It needs to be a sliding scale, base each states minimum income level based on it's productivity or GDP. This will help keep income viable and keep corporation from skinning the poor. That means that minimum wage can go up or down but it's a much fairer system.

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                                                                                                                            • keysync
                                                                                                                              Living the Dream
                                                                                                                              • Sep 2011
                                                                                                                              • 2375
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Rochard
                                                                                                                              Might be cheaper for us, but it will create an entire class of people who said "Fuck it, I don't want to work and I don't have to".
                                                                                                                              I'd argue we already have that class of people.
                                                                                                                              So maybe this would add to this class of people.
                                                                                                                              The net benefit is it ends up costing the rest of us less money than we're already spending now.


                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • Minte
                                                                                                                                  Babemeister
                                                                                                                                  • Jun 2001
                                                                                                                                  • 7082
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by keysync
                                                                                                                                  I'd argue we already have that class of people.
                                                                                                                                  So maybe this would add to this class of people.
                                                                                                                                  The net benefit is it ends up costing the rest of us less money than we're already spending now.
                                                                                                                                  These grand schemes always work on paper.. When has the US government ever done anything under budget or on schedule?
                                                                                                                                  You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • edgeprod
                                                                                                                                      Permanently Gone
                                                                                                                                      • Mar 2004
                                                                                                                                      • 10019
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Minte
                                                                                                                                      These grand schemes always work on paper.. When has the US government ever done anything under budget or on schedule?
                                                                                                                                      There's always a carrot for not doing so, and no stick for screwing it up. It's engineered to attract incompetent, corrupt scumbags who can then enrich themselves at the expense of their foolish constituents. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

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                                                                                                                                        • sandman!
                                                                                                                                          Icq: 14420613
                                                                                                                                          • Mar 2001
                                                                                                                                          • 15427
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          no..........
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                                                                                                                                            • bronco67
                                                                                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                                                                                                              • 29026
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              I'd consider myself heavily liberal, and I wouldn't support a guaranteed income for all Americans. How does a system like that foster innovation?

                                                                                                                                              Sound like a dumb idea.

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • Joshua G
                                                                                                                                                  dumb libs love censorship
                                                                                                                                                  • Jul 2008
                                                                                                                                                  • 8198
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  not to be a dick. but with the exception of the genetically stupid/mentally ill, the vast majority of people have the income they strive for, whether they realize it or not.

                                                                                                                                                  guaranteeing people a minimum standard of living will not improve the life of a person incapable of managing or saving money. Casinos & bodegas & pawn shops & drug dealers would only get even richer.

                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                    • Spudstr
                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                      • 2321
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      this would simply create one thing, massive inflation.
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                                                                                                                                                        • pornguy
                                                                                                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                          • Mar 2003
                                                                                                                                                          • 62910
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          A loaf of bread will cost about 25 $ really really soon.
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                                                                                                                                                            • Wizzo
                                                                                                                                                              2011 GFY Hall of Fame!
                                                                                                                                                              • Nov 2000
                                                                                                                                                              • 15224
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              Horrible Idea, almost as bad as all the current programs.
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                                                                                                                                                                • 96ukssob
                                                                                                                                                                  So Fucking Banananananas
                                                                                                                                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                                                                                                                                  • 12991
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Spudstr
                                                                                                                                                                  this would simply create one thing, massive inflation.
                                                                                                                                                                  yes, this would be insane! shit would cost a fortune!

                                                                                                                                                                  there is no easy solution... other than to spay and neuter your kids
                                                                                                                                                                  Email: Clicky on Me

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