Collectivism and ridding yourself of it.
 

Some serious "fucking around", random thoughts here..

I've slowly come to the realization that collectivism is the ultimate crux of humanity. The most obvious example of how detrimental collectivism can be, is in the form of race. My skin color vs. yours. Most people have woken up to this, fortunately.. Gender and sexuality are a couple of other inherent characteristics we humans love to collectivize ourselves around, and make the lives difficult of others who don't share the same sex/sexual preference.

The two most deadliest forms of collectives though are (1) Governments (Statism, Patriotism, Nationalism) and (2) Religion. I think if we're to survive long term, we have to move past this shit.

In the case of Religion, more and more people are waking up to its bullshit. I don't think I have to ..preach.. here on GFY about it. The mentality of my invisible sky ghost is better than your invisible sky ghost breeds conflict, results in death. Sure, you may argue as long as a person isn't initiating force or the threat thereof against a person or their property, they may do as they wish (Non-Aggression Principle), that's fine.. BUT, my prediction still stands.. needless deaths, war, conflict will persist as long as people participate in the delusion of faith.

In the case of Governments, ugh.. There's not a single other collective that is more deadly. The delusion of countries. World-wide, in the last 100 years roughly, governments have been responsible for 600+ million deaths (democide). The fucking ridiculous worshiping and praising of flags, and the belief in countries paves the way for war, and it's all fueled over arbitrary geographic lines drawn on maps, controlled by warlords that we so kindly refer to as politicians. And people not only participate in the belief in countries, they advocate for it. Why? Because they've been branded from day 1. Place your hand on your heart, pledge allegiance to a fucking flag (seriously?), anthems, colors (red white blue, red white leafs, green white red), etc.. This is all branding over the lines drawn on maps. It's collectivism and it's garbage.

So if you're one of the many still stricken with the delusion of religions or countries, or identify yourself with your race, gender or sexuality; THINK. Rip out the chord that's been jammed in the back of your neck and stop identifying yourself with groups. It's not easy, it can be uncomfortable, but once you rid yourself of collectivist mentality, life is better. It's a little lonelier, but wisdom trumps all.

/end rant, flame away, etc. :winkwink:


https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...65014974_n.jpg

All of our general behaviors are tied to survival and reproduction. You cant remove that from our genetic codes anytime soon.

Survival and reproduction aren't collectivist in the sense that it pits one group vs. the other.

collectivism and nationalism aren't ideologies, it's primal, the strongest humans are genetically programmed to acquire as much as they can and dominate others. of course over time we have learned to control ourselves, people bitch but even without doing any research I'm pretty sure we are living in the most peaceful time in the past few thousand years.

They're primal in their most simple form, but they're amplified much more by the efforts of those select few "strongest humans." The goal here is to become a self-aware, free thinking individual.. which ironically are two traits that are frowned on by religions and governments.

A very large degree of who we are is programmed after birth through experiences. In nature vs. nurture, it's largely nurture.

Relatively speaking you might be right. But of course that doesn't justify continuing a status-quo, especially when it's evident we have a lot more growing up to do. Nationalism is one of those things we have to eliminate.

A good video that elaborates on this a little further..

that we have so many people who are against war and violence is progress but we're far from overcoming our violent tribal ways. good chance humans destroy themselves - atomic bomb is only 70 years old.


"Our bloody nature, it can now be argued in the context of modern biology, is ingrained because group-versus-group competition was a principal driving force that made us what we are. In prehistory, group selection (that is, the competition between tribes instead of between individuals) lifted the hominids that became territorial carnivores to heights of solidarity, to genius, to enterprise?and to fear. Each tribe knew with justification that if it was not armed and ready, its very existence was imperiled."

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jun...n#.UerIrG2XiZc

Thats not true at all. Each group in this sense is most often a threat to the survival of the other. Particularly when one has more than the other, one has an advantage the other does not have (shelter, food stores, weapons, better land etc), which impacts the survival chances of each. Nationalism, racism, religion and so on and so on, bring people together, strengthen their bonds, strengthen the tribe when united behind ideologies and beliefs and improve their ability to survive and reproduce. People with no cause and no sense of purpose or higher purpose are horrible fighters... and horrible defenders and make for a weak fighting force.

You are making observations and judgements in the year 2013 by viewing the world through the prism of today and your understanding of today... and discounting 10,000,000 years of evolution and survival that got us to this point.

That's a myth though, strengthening their bonds through these collectives does not improve their ability to survive and reproduce. Tell that to the 600 million dead in the last hundred years. Tell that to every victim of a race related crime, or the millions dead on behalf of religious wars.

I agree and so did Prussia when their soldiers were fleeing the battlefield for self-preservation. That's why they introduced the idea of School and the US adopted it, as it was an amazingly effective tool for propagandizing a population:



Nationalism is certainly learned and not embedded in our genetic code.

I'm not discounting anything, I'm doing the opposite. I'm looking at the past and see that it could be greatly improved even in the here and now. Collectivism is the core issue that we must move past, just as we did with the concept of direct human ownership, which has now been eradicated largely through every major society. It's possible (and a necessity) this happens with nationalism, religion, etc.. but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

Again, because something worked for millions of years and can be argued to not have worked well for a few, doesn't mean its generally not the correct behavior... when looked at within the proper context of tribes, tribal existence and survival and reproduction.

And by the way, what do you think the root motivation is of a religious war? To strengthen the religion, the belief system and the community.

I am saying that mans tendency to rally together behind others and ideas is the behavior that is being exploited.

Its over. Become a communist like I did and life looks better instantly. Go with the flow because the Western world has become a bunch of zombies who look to the media for their thoughts and opinions. Like I said, it is OVER. When the only voice of reason from famous people is Charles Barkley then you know it is over.

in certain areas of the globe, Africa and the middle east for instance are not peaceful by any means and yet are not more violent than the past... it's about intellect Mutt.

low intellect/IQ results in poor impulse control, which results in violence in most instances... think of someone with the IQ range of 70-80 as a 12-14 year old while the average for Americans, or rather the past average for Americans is 100, think of that as an adult.... in most cases an adult has more impulse control than a 14 year old. not necessarily any better ideas but less likely to 'act' irrational ...

yes a global society would be a more positive environment hopefully, however nationalism isn't going away in the next 10-20 years... to my mind nationalism is really just an extension of tribalism which is a basic human instinct.

the difference being the size of the tribe and circumstances... in WWII tribes such as 'Italians, Jews, Polish, Irish' though living in separate communities were able pull together under the umbrella of American which is a national identify... while still maintaining their separate cultural identities, or tribes...

the golden calf... a very old tale indeed :2 cents:

Violence is largely taught and passed on. We're all taught not to hit or steal (non-aggression principle), but parents use aggression and force against their children all the time, spanking being a prime example. Another example is when we as children witness how adults in society conduct themselves, it's very hypocritical in that we tell our children hitting and stealing is bad, but much of our society is governed in an opposite way.. Right down to taxation, solving problems with force, imprisoning non-violent people for victimless crimes, etc.. We witness this, and while it's largely subconscious, we see that violence is used all around us.

Irriational behavior is largely contributed to (a) parenting and (b) brain development. The pre-frontal cortex doesn't fully mature until around the age of 25. It's the area in the brain that processes emotion. It's why all children throw temper tantrums, due to their inability to process emotions. It's why teenagers make crazy stupid decisions (we all have), that area in the brain just isn't developed fully.

In the case of (a) parenting, 75% to 80% of a child’s brain is developed by the age of 3, with exception to the PFC as noted above. So the experiences a child has during those 3 years, are largely going to affect their outcome in life and IQ even. Edit: And there are plenty of studies that show how a children is treated, they will treat others later in life.

http://www.parenticular.com/wp-conte...ilds-brain.png

I'd like to know what you think the alternative to government is? If you throw away governments, who maintains the roads? etc.....

I agree with your point on religion, but even Atheists, Agnostics, and Nihilists share different views. There are even "branches" of all 3 above. I've seen people refer to themselves as various "types" of the 3 above.

It's easier to see the answer if you phrase the question differently..

There are plenty of terms used.. A voluntary society (Voluntaryism), a stateless society, Anarcho-Capitalism, Anarcho-Communism (which is silly), etc..

"But what about the roads" is a meme in many circles because it's usually the first response from a person when they're confronted with the idea of no governments. It's a worth while question though. In short, people would build the roads as they do now.

Here's a more elaborate analysis of roads in a voluntary society:



And a more brash response.. ;)




Yeah, there are a lot of specific branches of anarchism even. Anarcho-communism, anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-syndicalism..

But in terms of religion, I honestly don't give a fuck what people want to believe. Go believe in square circles, or large fairy lizards who live in a 7th dimension; but don't use your beliefs to negatively affect others around you.. And that's a tall fucking order with so many religions with books based on violence and teachings of intolerance. The one commonality of all religions is they rely on faith, and faith is the belief in something without evidence.. in other words, bullshit, and when you believe in something that can't be proven, that's a dangerous path.

You can be an individualist, like you talked about. And see wrongs in everything from religion, to government, to nationalism. And everything in between.

In the end, we all make up our own mind on our own. Be glad, that you are a free thinker and have that intuition, to dig deeper and think critical about things.

I also see myself as a free thinker, to some degree.

-You could fight poverty. (If you haven't already.)
-Or go and make $ millions (If you haven't already?)

Why?(And this is a bit long.)

The thinkers, they will continue thinking. The talkers, will continue talking.

People do, what's in their nature. Sure, upringing is a part of it. But it's not all of it.

Why not enjoy yourself instead? Be like everybody else. Instead of thinking like a rebel(I hope I don't offend you.) that you live in the wrong era. Or that, how the western world, have developed in the wrong way.

What do you want instead? The 60s, the 50s, maybe the 20s?

A tribe in Africa?(Or somewhere else? No joke.)

Maybe 1800s or before that? Do you like hard work? Because that's what you will get when you take away everything we have been give during the last couple centuries.

And, especially, from 1900 to now or so.

And, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that the way you think, will not do you much good, in the long run.

How can I think that?

I used to think almost exactly like you. Everything was wrong. What if we had no "government", what if people stopped being brainwashed by the "news".

And so on.

I read a bunch on philosophy forums.

After a while I just laid down the axe. I had come to the end of a road. And when I started to stop caring about all the things that bothered me.

My life just became better.

It's up to you. How you do it and sees it. But if you strive to grow as a person.

You need to feel, if, philosophy and thinking like this. Is truly in your nature or not.

That's my advice to you.

You could start by taking a personality test. To see if this is a field and the type of thinking. You should live with, for the rest of your life, or not.


I think I will write a book about this, some day: "Kill The Rebel Within: Do What's in Your Nature The Most!"

(Or something like that.)

^-Well no, I don't want to go back to any other time. We live in exciting times in terms of technology. And ultimately, technology might be our saving grace or our worst enemy. Just think of the internet and bitcoins. Two things that governments absolutely want to control (though in the case of bitcoin, they can't, with exception to making it illegal).

And I understand the end of the state and collectivism as a whole is a long way from ever happening, I'm not delusional about that. It is certainly a multi-generational effort. I don't live life angered or upset though, in fact I'm more content and happier that I can see things clearly. I do understand changing people's minds is near impossible, but I do like discussing ideas and making these arguments.

And I do believe the potential for thinking clearly and seeing things for what they are exists in every one. I don't think it's necessarily "free thinkers" vs. not.

The most I can do in my life is live consistent with my ideas and raise two individuals capable of critical thinking.

Quite good answers man. But on the other hand you think negativly about the government. The system. Don't you think the government do good things too?

I was going to add this but I wanted to wait for your reply(A little patience, this time) and see what you had to say.

What I was going to add was, that you could always put things behind you or focus on other things a bit and still have your experience with you.

That is, if you're starting to feel like the world is against you. And the rebel side of you is taken up too much of your time.

Like it almost did for me.

Also, I wonder a little bit about this:

What do you mean. That, if you are born with the right tools, you will see clearly?

Personally, I stopped argueing on forums, a few years ago. It's to no good, 95% of the time. (Just my opinion, though.)

Ever thought, that the bitcoin crazy has gone to your head, and it controls you, and not the government want to control the use of bitcoins?

I'm just half joking, but it could be a possibility. :winkwink:

I also think that with the right contacts and relationships you could make bitcoin the global phenomena, it supposedly should be. :winkwink:

But who is going to do that, when we have dollars, euros and yen? Right?

You just need to sleep with the media a little bit more and bitcoins will be bigger than all those three currencies, together. :winkwink:

We're all one big happy dysfunctional family as I see it... :1orglaugh

http://heelzstayhigh.com/wp-content/...5/Be-Happy.jpg

"Be the change that you want to see", and "think globally, act locally" are also good words to live by... :)

:stoned

ADG

I don't really know what I think about this. For me, to some degree, people are born a certain way.

I remember myself watching tv, when I was like 3-4 years old. And I saw a very abnormal thing on the tv monitor. I immediately, thought to myself: "That's not normal".

So, certain things are inherited for sure, in my opinion. But in a perfect world, we all get perfect upbrinings, and then I believe, like you said. We all could get it. And live happily with low crime rates all over the world, and all that.

Well said. But I think some people can't be taught critical thinking. What do you think or what's your ideas on that?

P.S. I found this:
http://us.talentlens.com/assessment-...-making-skills

No offense, hopefully... I didn't meant to hurt your feelings. I am and was serious, though. That's just the way I am. I am an INFP in personality type. You?

Sorry, but misquoting me, makes me value you less, I know why you done it, but you didn't quote me properly. Which is sad, because I share similar views.

Thing is, I've never, and will never, enjoy people sticking words in my mouth.

ESTP here... :)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-62iwFWLciP...ersonality.jpg

Didn't take the actual test, just looked at the graph descriptions and figured that was roughly where I fall (although my my life is a rainbow made up of many shades of gray). :)

:stoned

ADG

Deep down we're all fucked up equally. We all have our demons.

Are you trolling? I'd hope so. Where in my comment was I sticking words in your mouth? I addressed your question by phrasing your question differently to help you and others see what "government" truly is. I wasn't purposefully changing words around in your quote to make it look like you actually said something you didn't, man.

Sure, but it's much like stockholm syndrome. Just because a captor provides shelter, doesn't justify the situation..

If some people can't be taught critical thinking (which is true, the mentally challenged), does that negate the effort to teach others critical thinking? The problem is, with religion and public education, critical thinking is near non-existent. It's only been 11 years since I graduated so I can remember the curriculum pretty well. ;)

And yeah, arguing on internet forums.. I've done my share of it, not so much any more (I rarely post here), but every now and then I like to shoot the shit. ;) Honestly, it's more for my own benefit than anything else. I've learned a lot about being outspoken with my ideas, being corrected, forming ideas, etc..

By the time you've realized that the public school system has lied to you, you are a ranting old fart that no one listens to. :1orglaugh

Also...

https://image.spreadshirt.com/image-...chy-Symbol.png

I'm with you on religion but trying to manage a society with hundreds of millions of people and no formal government is insane.

You could have quoted me, then put your ideas below the quote. But nevermind :thumbsup

Anyway, I find the concept interesting. I can't personally see it working entirely to be honest with you.

I think before you even think of attempting to change the world to this view point, you're going to need to rid the world of religion first. That has to be the biggest blanket ideology on the planet.

No need to be so hard on the human race. One of our gifts is to think deeply. We think a lot.

I've learned from bees that no society is perfect. There will always be outsiders, favorites, workers and those that leave to create their own hive. Somehow they keep their shit together, even when bees from another hive attack. Bees are a social insect. If they didn't do their job pollinating, where would we be?

We have been a tribal, pack animal since we were living in caves and hunting with spears. Nothing will ever change that. It is what we are.

Knowledge & evolution

Those things can change some aspects of our lives, but not what we are at our core.

Primitive man banded together in tribes, they armed themselves to hunt for food and to fight other tribes of primitive men who wanted to take what they had. They chose leaders and had a social hierarchy.

That is no different than today. We may do it in different ways, but we are still doing the same things we did thousands of years ago.

Nothing stays the same.

No matter where you go, there you are.

Well. Okay. But people has to have jobs to go to. At least, that's how it is today. I guess, I'm saying "has to have", because that's what I prefer.

But on the other hand, I'm open for alternatives. And still, everyone can't work, because of disabilities and mental problems and so on.

At least that's how it is in Sweden. We got social insurance here. So, that those people can get at least a somewhat decent life.

Or do you just want a self serving, agriculture kind of society?

Don't you support a capitalist society?

With money exchanges, I guess you seem to support that, because you were speaking about "bitcoins" earlier.

I also assume, that you don't have as radical views, as some out there. From what I've read so far. But I still have more questions for you:

What are your takes on laws and regulations?

Do you support having taxes?

What does your ideal society look like, then. If we are not going to have governments?

If you get to choose. That is.

I agree with you that, critical thinking, should be taught in school, in one way or another. It would open quite a lot of doors to some people. Most likely.

I guess, I see it as some people who are mentally unchallenged, still can't be taught critical thinking. But I think what I really mean, is some people are just very bad at it.

An example of how I think, is this:

I had an arguement with a friend(no real contact with the guy now. And not because of this arguement, LOL.) about being able to swim.

He said that, "you are able to swim when you can swim two pool lengths in a swimming pool."

I said "you could not swim by swimming that short."

So, I guess I have the take on the critical thikning part that, if you are really, really bad at critical thinking. Then, you can't master it.

But I also think about this question, as of, how it is today. So today, not many masters critical thinking(Like you said.) so that may also be a reason why I think, not all people can master critical thinking.

It was around 10 years(June, 2003) for me.(If you mean, graduating from high school, and not college. As you spoke about public school, so I assume, you mean high school.)

Do you visit other forums/boards to argue in/on?

I was a member of a philosophy forum site. As I said, earlier. I think I got banned twice, because of my "bad" English.

I'm not saying, that my English is very good. But that's just ridiculus and why I like the GFY board. And many other boards/forums.

:stoned

ADG