My political stance
 

Has been shaped over the last 50 years and based on my experience and the experience of the times, my parents and those before them.

My Great Grandparents were ordinary lower working class. One a dressmaker in a factory, the other a fruit a veg stall owner. Wives I suspect were at home looking after the family.

Grand Parents. One opened a small dressmaking business, the other became a street bookie. Worked for Joe Coral before betting shops were legal. They had taken a step up the ladder.

My parents, Father came out of the Navy at the end of WarII, worked in a dressmaking factory, rose to manager, left and started the most successful belt factory in the UK. When they married they lived in the attic of my Grand Parent rented house until I was 3, then moved to a Council flat in Mile End, then to one in Highbury. Working class areas.

Then Dad's business took off and we moved to a "house on the hill" in Loughton Essex. Had European holiday when most people had a week at the seaside, brothers had private/State education in a boarding school. I was a lost cause so went to State school. We were Middle Class.

Brothers became top programmers and joined the Middle Class. I joined the Working Class, chef, dressmaker, porn, dressmaker, porn, salesman, porn and rose to Middle Class.

None of the above would of been possible without the State building the structure we lived in. Even though it was far easier to pull ourselves up the ladder, we needed the structure around us to make it happen.

And so does everyone today. In fact with business centralising, growing bigger, jobs being exported. We need more support.

No one can live in 2012 without the Government structure around them. What some don't want is to pay for it. And that's the debate that matters. The West is in debt not because Governments built a structure to make their lives better. It's because they didn't tax the recipients enough to pay for it. Targeting the poor, less able is a Red Herring. They get very little and spend it in the shops owned by the 1%.

If you think you can survive without the Government, get off the Internet, stop using electricity, driving on the roads, in fact go find an island buy it with cash, no banks allowed and build a boat and go live on it. You won't pay taxes there. :1orglaugh

No arguments!!!!!

I thought all the Americans would be wading in, while they live in a country discovered and created by Governments, how they could do without them. Go figure. LOL

Buy a clock.

Keeping with tradition, I only read the first sentence of your post.

I don't care about the political views from people who live in countries that I have to block in my .htaccess files. :2 cents:

only a lunatic like Johnny Clips doesn't believe in the structure of government - there would be anarchy and mayhem without government. where people differ is how involved the government should be in our lives and the economy.

the form of government the Founding Fathers conceived for the United States was brilliant, none of them were sure it would endure, but it has. but no form of government is immune to the follies of human beings.

The dumbest part about your post is that you believe that government is the only way to build infrastucture. The entire banking system was build privately. In the US the entire power and telephone system was build privately(and much more efficiently than in government run systems). Food distribution in the country that has the most access to the largest varieties of produce worldwide in the planet was built privately. The original road systems were built privately. The Internet was about to be built by several private entities, but government beat them to it by a matter of a year or two at most. Imagine how much better things would have gone if IBM's "ethernet" had beat them to it!




In East Germany, as the wall was coming down, the government warned people that without the government to control distribution of things like toothpaste, that people would go without. They argued that without central control, how would products get to people that needed them?







Such total fallacies that you live under Paul. It's staggering.



I say all this as someone that has lived outside the US for almost half of my 50 years, btw....





.

All within the structure a Government provided. So you agree. Thank you.

Which is partly true. They were trying to save their total control for the West German of building a structure, letting companies build within the structure and regulating them.

If you can point me to a control without any Government or form of rule. Which operates like the civilised world, you will have proved your delusion to be real. Otherwise you're not proving anything.

Was it in a country with or without a Government. Making sure you were safe, roads were built, your food wasn't poisoning you, your kids weren't spiking themselves on toys, your house didn't fall down because the builder didn't follow the regulations, there was a financial system so the pieces of paper you exchanged for goods had an actual value.

I could go on for weeks telling you what the Government has done to make sure you can operate. but you would still think you could survive without it.

Mutt called you an idiot. I just think you're brainwashed.

Is that why your electrical supply collapses in high wind?

When the state makes an electric grid it stays on.

During the first world war Britain ordered ammunition from private companies in the US, such a large percentage of the shells failed to explode that the British State had to organize ammunition production.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh



Thanks man, you made my morning. I lived in the UK for 4 years with BT and your power system....





HAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!






.

BT is a UK private business you clown. And their power and utility companies are not only private businesses, they have non-British owners.

That's the kind of batshit insane shit you believe, handing over essential services to anyone with enough money.

Power and utilities, like health and all other essential services, should be under national/Government control and be run as affordable services, not as profiteering businesses.

When we get in our car, drive on a road, get robbed, house burning down, natural disaster, fall down and break a leg, etc. Who do we call, ghost busters, Haliburton, Rain and co or a Government run service?

From long before Man built this, there has been Government organising things and people.

http://media.smithsonianmag.com/imag..._nov08_631.jpg

Mike, how do you operate these systems without the Government structure around you?

[email protected] http://europaymentgroup.com

Or do you only take rabbits and sacks of corn in exchange? For sacks of corn and rabbits? :1orglaugh

Go think of an answer to that one. Something better than the previous one. :thumbsup

Why bother arguing with you Paul. You are utterly set in your mind about how things are. No evidence will ever sway you.


Total waste of my time.... Really.



Carry on.





.

It was run by the post office until 1981. You should have seen what it was like trying to get a new phone line, or even getting initial service installed, when the UK government was running it.... If you don't believe me, ask someone that was dealing with them in the 1970s.


(and why insult me? Can't you have a debate with grownups without resorting the personal insults simply because someone dares to have a different view point?)





.:2 cents:

exactly, even when he is wrong he argues about shit that has nothing to do with the topic, then busts out some facts to look like he is right when nobody is arguing what he is even talking about. It is hard to debate with the guy, He makes a post to argue with those who do not agree and bitches when nobody responds when it is 7am middle america time LOL. Yeah we are eating our frosted flakes or getting that morning wood sucked off still, let us wake up first man :)
johnnyclips will be in here later to reply, have a good day pauly D

Listen to sperbonzo :2 cents:

Brian, if Paul isn't worth your time why do you spend so much of it insulting him? He's not wrong on this subject, and if the point of forum discussions was to change minds, then nobody would have a discussion, because nobody ever changes their mind on anything.

Fact is Libertarians can say whatever they like, because their massive unpopularity means they have no hope of ever getting into a position where they have to deal in reality, rather than their unworkable utopian fantasies.

Yes insults are uncalled for, but they're a part of life here, and any forum, get over it.

Seemed you were making a point about private business being better than Government in one post, then citing private companies doing a bad job in another post. I wrongly assumed you were talking about living memory, and not comparing 21st Century America to the UK of 30-40 years ago.

:helpme :Oh crap

Sorry that YOUR life has been so short, but amazingly enough that it not true for the majority of the people on this planet. 30 or 40 years ago I had the opportunity to directly compare a government run telephone system in the UK to a privately run one in the US. The difference was stark, and not favorable to the government run way.



.:2 cents:




.

You might have a point if I spent my time insulting sperbonzo over and over again, while claiming it's a waste of time replying to him. A random insult, in the middle of a point, is not the same as repeatedly going out of your way to insult someone.

= Don't have a decent argument to his last post.

OK we understand.

All your arguments are based on the concept that since we have always had government, then any success or improvements are a result of that. It's specious. I'm not suggesting that we get rid of government, (the nature of man is such that we will always have it), I'm saying that the things that government should do and does well are very limited, e.g. national defense, and law enforcement. To say that infrastucture was created by government simply because government happened to be around at the time it was built ignores the reality that when infrastructure is created privately within the framework of law enforcement by the government, it works much much better.



But you always seem to thing that government is the panacea and the best engine for progress. There is no arguing or changing that kind of viewpoint, especially at this point for you. I see, and have seen, in a life lead through many countries, and personal economic circumstances, that although in it's basic form government is needed for keeping the peace, in every other way it is private enterprise and the forces of more free markets that drive progress for mankind, and government often slows it down, and sometimes stops it altogether for no other purpose than to make itself more powerful, and it can legally use force to do that.




.:2 cents:

You did better than me, I only read the title :1orglaugh

Whats your stance on jigsaw puzzles?

You misread my posts. It's a partnership.

Can you add to this list please, before I tear your reasoning apart.

I'm saying that the things that government should do and does well are very limited, e.g. national defense, and law enforcement.

I will understand that you can't answer with a longer list.

Have you not seen the power outages in the USA currently?

Here's pauls political dance... :1orglaugh

http://www.jibjab.com/view/0xbek0qgT...b&cmpid=jj_url

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I do not even read your stupid bullshit asking for attention postings cause no one in real life is giving you a pad on the shoulder, I am asking you to fuck off to your own forum and keep your vomit there, not pollute my nose with it. No one gives a shit, no fucks where giving while typing this blind and watching the Matrix reloaded on my other screen, piss off

Thank you yet again for posting. :thumbsup