Sponsors requiring W-9 from non US citizens?
 

I see that I can not be paid because I did not upload w9 form sponsor request, but that for is for US citizens. How come they requuest that from me?

looks like interpol is on to you. sorry.

He forgot to fill up this form:

Ok, now on the serious note, how do I get paid when sponsors says I need to fill out that form it gives me, but it is for US citizens only, lol.

put some random numbers in for taxid/ssn

non-US should have to fill out a w-8 not w-9 and its not so much about you but to show where their money went.

Makes sense, but why do all of the sponsors provide me with W9 to fill out, they should provide W8. I am sure they got many non US people who has no idea about US forms confused.

Just put an address any address that is not in the usa. You can't be issue a w9 if you live out of the states.

Just fill out the W8 once, scan it, and then email over the same copy to whoever requests...

What is the name of the affiliate program for heads up!? You should mentioned here so that they will be informed if they don't have knowledge on what form which they gave to you.

It looks like most of them - occash, hypetraffic are just two random examples.

What he says

should be a w8 if im not mistaken
ds

Its a W8-BEN that you need to fill out.

I'm going through this hassle now with Amazon, on the other end of things. Their staff only seem to know what to do with US Citizen/residents, or non-US citizen / non-residents. Not for the US citizen who lives outside the USA - when a W9 is used.

That's not entirely correct.

US based affiliates need to fill out a W9 form.

W8 (BEN) forms are for foreign affiliates that have what the IRS calls "US activities". This means that if a foreign affiliate owns property in the US or has a bank account in the US or has employees in the US,... he needs to fill out a W8BEN form.

If the foreign affiliate is not a US citizen and has no property in the US and has no employees in the US (etc), the W8BEN form does not apply to him. In that case, the foreign affiliate should not fill out a W8BEN form (because that form simply does not apply to him and there's no section in that form for him to fill out).

What I (as a non US based affiliate with no US activities) usually do, is print a statement saying that "I certify that I do not own any property in the US. etc". I sign it, date it and scan it.

Affiliate programs that still refuse to pay after having received a statement like that either have no idea what they are doing or are committing fraud.




note: registering domains with a US based registrar, renting server space in the US etc is not the same as "owning property in the US". However,r if a foreign affiliate buys a server in the US, he will have to fill out a W8BEN form (when US based affiliate programs ask for it).

..... ...

Thank you u-bob. I did some reading on the IRS site (see pub 515) and two sentences stuck out - the W9 may only be used be US persons, and taxes are witheld only on income earned in the US. If you and your business are not in the US, none of the four W8 forms seems to be required.

So what you ae saying that non US residents should not fill in any forms ?

People who are not a US citizen, live and work outside the US and have no property or employees in the US do not have to fill out a w9 or w8 form.

w9 forms are for US based citizens.

w8 (ben) forms are for foreigners that have so called "us activities". Meaning part of their operation is US-based (example: they have employees in the US or they own property in the US).

Look at the way Google handles this: their 'foreign' affiliates (people with an adsense account) simply have to click a button that says that they certify that they have no US based activities.

If some affiliate program is giving you a hard time (and w9 or w8 forms don't apply to you), simply print out a statement saying that you (and/or your company) are based outside the US and have no employees in the US. Sign it, scan it, email it.
If it's the IRS they are worried about, that statement will be more than sufficient.
If that affiliate program still refuses to pay you after that, my first guess (given the current climate) would be that they are using the whole w9/w8 forms thing as an excuse to not have to pay you or as an excuse to delay paying you. (a sign of yet another program going under?)

Or a) they are pornographers, not tax attorneys or b) they haven't caught up on the 10,000 pages of new tax law Washington generates every year. Even the legislators SPONSORING new laws don't always read them (Pelosi, Obamacare), so I would forgive a porn person for not having read and understood all several million pages of federal law.

Good point.

you would get a w8
ds

yea & then when the sponsor get's a letter from the irs saying that it's invalid guess who's keeping the money. Always pay your taxes.
ds

If he's not a US citizen or resident (and has no property or employees in the US), a w8 doesn't apply to him. In fact, simply filling in his name on a w8 form would already be the same as making a false statement.

Because they have no idea what they are doing. :2 cents:

Exactly.

It's not about he affiliate who does not want to report the income internationally. It has to do with the American based company being able to show where all of the money has gone, so they can properly file their taxes. What you do with your year to date statement is your own prerogative. File taxes, don't file taxes, that is your business.

However, any U.S. based company/corporation needs to account for the money spent.

:2 cents:

Doubtful.

I agree I might have gone a bit overboard there, but the fact remains that W8 forms do not apply to the majority of 'foreign' affiliates.

The requirement to document where you're sending your money to is not limite dto just w8 and w9 forms.

And the fact that some 'foreign' affiliates refuse to fill out w8 forms (that don't apply to them) does not mean they're not paying there taxes.

I pay my taxes. My company pays it taxes. And I've never filled out a w8 form. I would be committing an act of fraud if I did fill out a w8 form.

The porn affiliate programs, or any online company, doesn't give a rat's ass what you do with your taxes. No offense. Whether you file on your end or not does not concern them. That I can assure you. What they do in regards to a W-8, or a W-9, has to do with THEIR taxes and liabilities. It has nothing to do with YOU.

That being said, I would think it has more to do with some level of fraud protection or I.D. verification more so than trying to get out of paying you. With the way the Patriot Act and banking laws are now in the U.S., you need to know WHO you are doing business with. Especially internationally.

:2 cents:

I fully understand that. US companies must document those payments, but where you and a few others go wrong is in assuming that the only way to documents those transactions is by using either a w8 or w9 form.

W9 forms are meant for documenting certain types of payments. W8 forms are for documenting a few other types of payments. And then there's those types of payments that cannot be documented with either a w8 or w9 form.

Now, I can understand where the confusion comes from. When you read the docs about w8 forms you see:
I can see people reading that and seeing the word "foreign" and thinking "Oh, this applies to our foreign affiliates".

Of course their assumption would be wrong in most cases. The W8BEN form is only required to be filled out for US SOURCED income. If the foreign affiliate has no US sourced income, he is not the beneficial owner of an amount SUBJECT TO WITHHOLDING.

"US sourced" means that the work was done in the US (either by the affiliate or one of his employees) or the work was done in the US using property the affiliate owns in the US.

If the affiliate is not a US citizen and lives outside the US and has no employees or property in the US, the w8 form cannot be used to document his situation.

So it's in the best interest of the US company to make sure its affiliates fill out the correct form. For US citizens that would be a w9, for certain types of foreign affiliates that would be a w8 and for the majority of foreign affiliates that would be some other type of document.

Is your domain a .com, and registered at a U.S. based registrar? Domains are considered an asset FYI. Are you using U.S. based web hosting? What about GMAIL. That is U.S. based, and you are using it for business purposes.

You can split hairs all day long on this, and while I can partially see your point of view, the affiliate program simply wants to make sure they have their ducks in a row, and everything accounted for in regards to an audit and the Patriot Act/banking laws crap. The "proper paperwork" point of view from the international affiliate doesn't matter to them. Only the IRS does.

It has been discussed in many similar threads on GFY over the years. The rest of your argument is little more than semantics where some international affiliates do not want to provide these docs.

No more, no less.

:2 cents:

The OECD (of which the USA is a member of) has determined years ago that if you OWN a webserver in a country, then the websites you have on that server are producing income SOURCED in that country. If you merely RENT a webserver in a country, the websites on it are producing FOREIGN SOURCED income. Same applies to domains etc.

This is not about splitting hairs, this is about what the correct way is and what is obviously a common misunderstanding in this industry.

I mentioned Shareasale in another thread. They require a w9 from their US publishers and even state on their site that w8 applies to the situation of hardly any foreign publishers.

It sounds like you are misinformed. I would recommend anyone reading this thread use/contact their C.P.A. for professional advice, and simply not consider this stuff as correct.

Finally, even if the affiliate programs requested what you claim are the right forms (the U.S. based companies only care about the IRS, and U.S. laws) I am sure you would be in the thread claiming that anyone international should not have to fill them out, nor provide any form of I.D. because you're 'international' and U.S. laws apply.

In short, no matter which way this conversation went, in the end you would still insist anyone non-U.S. should not have to provide any documentation in any way. I've seen your stance in the other threads, and you made mention of it above to some degree as well.

In the end, it really comes down to a mix of misdirection and semantics hidden behind a bunch of legal foolishness. You simply do not want, nor feel, you should have to provide the docs.

:2 cents:

When a foreign affiliate, who has no US sourced income and therefor must not fill out a w8 form, does fill out a w8 form, he is effectively stating that he has US sourced income when he in reality has not.

So that foreign affiliate is 1) making a false statement (and the affiliate program now has a false document on file) and 2) is putting himself in a position where he could be forced to pay extra taxes he normally shouldn't have to pay.

You say only the IRS matters to the US affiliate program. Well, the IRS doesn't say you need to collect either a w9 or w8 form. No, to be in compliance, you need the correct docs. You need paperwork that documents the tax situation of the entity you as a US company paid.

If I as a foreign affiliate email you as a US company a signed statement that correctly describes my situation, then you have all that is need to comply with the IRS's requirements.

Now when US based affiliate programs (and I'm not talking about you. now I'm talking in general) refuse to pay foreign affiliates, when those foreign affiliates have provided the correct paperwork but refuse to make a false statement (what they would be doing if they filled out a w8 form when it doesn't apply to them), that is shady to say the least.

Looks man, you obviously don't know me.

Every time when a US based affiliate program has requested I send in docs, I have done so. I have always provided them with a scan (pdf) of a signed statement describing my and my company's situation.

What I will always refuse to do is commit an act of fraud. I will never sign or send in a statement that is false. W8 forms don't apply to my situation so I can't fill one out.

When a program asks I send in a w8 form, I explain them the situation and email them the correct documents. Sometimes it takes some explaining, sometimes they have to check with their accountant. So far, I've not encountered any that refused to pay me because I would not send in an incorrect document. If I ever do, I'll take my traffic elsewhere.. to a company that does understand what the IRS requires from them.

but what is all the drama about? I have to fill out w9s all the time and I'm not bitching, why is filling out w8 such a big deal?

If w9 applies to your situation, then of course you should fill it out.
If w89 applies to your situation, then of course you should fill it out.
If WYZEIDKE6559 applies to your situation, then of course you should fill it out.

The "big deal" is that apparently some people think it's ok to demand that people fill out the wrong form.

you could have sent a w8 form to 10 different sponsors in the time you spent arguing in this thread? or is this more of a public service you are trying to do?

This is not about the time it takes to fill out a form. In fact, when an affiliate program requests form, I take a prepared statement out of a folder in my desk, I fill in the name of the program and other details like my affiliate id, I sign it and date it. I then scan it and email the pdf to the affiliate program.

What this is about, is about when to use which type of form. There's a correct way to handle every situation. What I'm complaining about is that a few people in this industry apparently don't know what those forms are for and demand the wrong type of form from foreign affiliates.

Do Shareasale, Google etc require their foreign publishers and affiliates to fill out a w8 form when it doesn't apply to them? Of course not. Those companies understand how things work and who needs to supply what.

Like I said, W9 forms are meant for documenting certain types of payments. W8 forms are for documenting a few other types of payments. And then there's those types of payments that cannot be documented with either a w8 or w9 form.

If the affiliate program's C.P.A./Attorney say you must fill out whatever they say you must fill out, that is what you would be required to do,... or you move along. I would take the guidance of my accountant and attorney over some affiliate trying to 'school me' on international law, or their perception of such.

In the end, it is my counsel signing my tax return, or defending me in regards to the IRS. If they were to tell me you as an international affiliate were to provide a copy of your legal I.D. docs, and sign some W-9, you would sign it or I would never approve you as an affiliate. If you were an affiliate and refused, I pay you whatever was remaining, and close your account.

At the end of the day, I am not going to risk my business over one guy's interpretation of both U.S. and international law. That is why you pay counsel who specialize in such matters to handle it.

:2 cents:

It sounds like you want to be the 'gideongallery' of international tax laws.

:2 cents:

Those who cannot attack the thought, instead attack the thinker.~Paul Valery

Over the years, it has happened a couple of times that a program at first insists they need a w8 form form all foreign affiliates "because their accountant said they need it". When they eventually check things with their accountant, it always turns out that a w8 is only needed in very specific cases (as I described in this thread).

that's what I do when a program turns out to be engaging in fraudulent activities. When they refuse to pay foreign affiliates unless those affiliates sign a false statement.


Oh, I'm not trying to school you on international law. I'm pointing out a misconception about IRS requirements. And if you want to take this whole thing personal, as it seems to me you're doing, then so be it.

And for the record, I have discussed the different forms with my own accountant. He strongly advises against signing those w8 forms in my case because in my case they don't apply.


That's fair. You have the right to do business without whoever you want and you have the right to refuse to do business with whoever you want. And when, as you say, all remaining funds are paid, there's no problem.

What i was complaining about in this and a similar thread are programs that don't do the right thing and refuse to pay their affiliates. I'm sure you'll agree that THAT is shady.


Same here. I don't promote half of the EU based affiliate programs out there, because a surprisingly big part of them don't correctly apply the EU VAT directives. Being EU based myself, I don't risk doing business with them. When dealing with US based, I avoid those that require certain things from their foreign affiliates that my accountant calls risky.

Agreed on all accounts.

In the end, it comes down to you as an affiliate are going to do what you want (or your counsel advises you) and the affiliate program is going to do what their own counsel advises them. I know for me, I would listen to my counsel. After all, you are paying someone much more intelligent and versed in these matters than you or I.

I would not hold someone's income owed should the situation come up. I would simply pay what's owed, and wish you the best as I closed your account for your pleasure. After all, if I had been paying you for months or years, one more payment before closing their account is not going to change your liability one way or the other.

:2 cents:

In that case we agree on what ultimately is one of the most important things in business (as well in life), integrity.

u-bob what did you do in AFF's case after the've asked you for W8?

the've asked me to send w8, I then replied

then they replied with this!?!?:
wtf should I do, why would they ask me for this shit after years of promotion?

IRS is getting tougher
 

Due to changes in the US tax law, all businesses are required to issue 1099's to every business or individual the pay more than $600 in a year. Whether or not a W9 or W8 is on file.

W8 Instructions

"Purpose of form. Foreign persons are subject to U.S.tax at a 30% rate on income they receive from U.S.
sources that consists of:
Interest (including certain original issue discount (OID). Dividends; Rents; Premiums; Annuities;
Compensation for, or in expectation of, services performed; connected with the conduct of a trade or business in the
Substitute payments in a securities lending transaction; Other fixed or determinable annual or periodical gains, profits, or income."

The key sentence is "Compensation for, or in expectation of, services performed;"
You as an affiliate are expecting compensation for a service performed.


The US business is paying you money. To prove they paid out the money they must receive a W9 from any US based company or individual or a W8 from a foreign based company or individual. If they don't have this document on file, they are required to withhold 30% of the money due you. Companies don't want to fuck with the hassles of withholding. So they put in a policy, no W9 or W8, no payment.

You don't want to get paid, then don't fill out the form.

The statement
"If you are not a US citizen/company etc and do not own any property in the US and have no employees in the US, you must not file a w8ben form. If you do, then you're making a false statement."
IS TOTALLY INCORRECT
The fact that a US corporation is paying you, makes it US income, unless you fill out a W8 to prove you are not a US corporation or citizen.

You fill out the W8, the IRS won't tax you. However, they will report that money to the country you are in, if they have a tax treaty.

From the IRS's own website:
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p515/ar02.html
Oracle, icq me if you want me to send you an copy of the "USA Tax Certification Form ? Non-United States Citizen" form I use because W8 forms don't apply to my situation.

Every major mainstream program accepts it, so I guess it's fine :)
I stopped using AFF/FFN a few years ago, so I don't know what they'll do.

W8ben applies to US sourced income. "Sourced" refers to where the work was done, not where the one paying is located.

When you as an American visit Amsterdam, do you refuse to pay for your hotel room unless the hotel provides you with a w8 form?
When you as an American order a coffee in Paris, do you withhold 30% the price unless the waitress gives you a w8 form?