History Buffs: Nazi Germany
 

For those who are really into history, this should pose an interesting topic I have always wondered.

If Hitler had honored his 'pact' with Stalin, and not gotten drawn into attacking him and losing millions of troops, while being distracted in a multi front war, would World War II had a different outcome in regards to the defeat of Germany?

If Nazi Germany would have remained allies with Stalin, and had access to the natural resources of Russia (steel, oil, manpower, etc.) I believe the war would have turned out much differently. From what I've gathered, based on numerous resources, Germany appeared to be 5-20 years in front of the allies on most of that era's technology.

* Jet Fighters
* Stealth Bombers
* Automobiles with High Gas Mileage. Also water vapor engines.
* V2 Rockets
* Tiger and Panzer Tanks

....those are just a few things that come to mind.

Plus they would have had "the bomb" within a few years if they were not so aggressive attacking everyone. But Germany's limited access to materials and playing the bait and switch of natural resources in addition to getting bogged down in Russia seemed to have been their biggest blunders, or turning points in the war.

I am not saying they could not have been defeated ever. However, from all of the details that have come to light over the years since, technologically speaking they seemed to be far advanced over anyone else but were beat by sheer numbers, and Hitler's meddling in his general's plans.

of course it's all hypothetical, but it's very much likely that it would have went a different way. starting war with Russia was the beginning of the end, he should have learned from Napoleon.

but fortunately he was not as clever as he was evil

Hypothetical, but Stalin wouldn't have played along I don't think.

Oh and fuck nazi germany.

Indeed.

However, by many accounts health-wise, Hitler would have been dead soon regardless. Even if they would have partnered with Stalin to take over Europe, Hitler would have been out of the picture in a few short years. But the German war machine still would have been able to accomplish much in the short term.

That being said, like all "empires" of the past, they would have crumbled at some point.

i wish i could have been around for that..

i always wanted to put someone in an oven..

and the crazy experiments they did on people..

good times...





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Germany and the USSR were sworn enemies. The whole Nazi rise was on the back of criticizing and attacking communism, the USSR, the Jewish connect, etc.

War was inevitable, only Germany decided to attack first to take the advantage of their maneuverability over rough terrain (a massive advantage over the Soviets and core to Blitzkrieg). If Germany didn't attack, some time later the USSR would of attacked Germany at an advantageous time.

All wars originating from central Europe have typically had to be "quick", decisive wins, due to lack of resources, raw materials, etc. Hence Germany's attack.

had he not attack russia and instead invaded england he would have ended up being nuked together with the japs. as simple as that.

if yer gettin all hypothetical 'n stuff you should read Philip K. Dick's amazing novel called "The Man In The High Castle." (one of the few that hasn't been made into a big ass movie yet)
In it the Axis powers prevailed in WW2 and Japan takes over the U.S. west coast while Germany takes control of the east coast.

Actually Germany was never close and basically gave up on the idea. The mistakenly believed it took far more radioactive material that is actually did to build a bomb.

If you think there is any chance that Stalin would have honored any agreement with Hitler, then you know nothing about Stalin. Stalin and Hitler both had similar motivations... to delay the inevitable war between each other under the guise of a peace agreement. Hitler pulled the trigger first once it was clear Stalin was certain Hitler didn't have the balls and the Soviet Union was thoroughly unprepared to deflect a blitzkrieg from German forces. Stalin had been warned repeatedly by his own intelligence that the Nazi's were going to attack and he refused to believe it.

... a guy who had no qualms about murdering 10s of millions of HIS OWN people certainly wasn't prepared to share power or subjugate himself to the a guy bent on world domination for the long term.

interesting question for sure...

The war would have easily doubled in length, most definitely. However it was kind of inevitable that there would be power struggles because both Hitler and Stalin were megalomaniacs who both wanted to dominate as much land and as many people as possible so how they could ever share is beyond me.

I also believe that the two countries didn't have enough (willing) soldiers to hold off the allies invasion. Sure you can say that Russian troops could have gotten to the front in France to hold them off but by doing that they would have to sacrifice soldiers, tanks etc that would otherwise be used to protect their own cities so that would limit the numbers.

As for resources with Russia exhausting so many men and even children for the war effort who would be drilling the oil? Who would be refining it? Women and seniors? not likely. The americans could afford to take the chance because they have 2 oceans protecting them from other side for the most part.

If it did last longer the war may have ended up having the US bomb Russia as they did Japan in order to save lives, the equation would be the same really...

Thankfully, it never amounted to that...

if we are all that hypothetical, it's also possible that war in Europe would have been over already before the bomb was ready.

there is actually too many ifs and whens and at the end we can all be "happy" that it went this way, the nazi regime needed to be erased completely (not that communist Stalin was much better though)

Well Hitler should have Japan hold off on bombing Pearl Harbor thus delaying US involvement. In fact if Hitler insisted on invading Russia he should have convinced Japan to invade Russia from the east. Stalin would have had to diverage some forces to the eastern part of Russia then.

We should have stood back and just let the Germans win. They would have wiped out all the blacks and islamics.

But its very inspirational to see how nazi Germany became a super power in just few years... If they had won world war II then things wud have been completely different... :)
They were interesting people. :)

This is a great question.

The truth is the Russians beat Nazi Germany, and did it with very little help. Attacking and invading Russia - with it's vast resources and huge numbers of fighting aged men - was the dumbest thing that Hitler ever done. While we tend to portray Hitler as a mad man and the most evil person in the world (and he was), the truth is that he was brilliant when it came to politics. He took Germany from ruins during the depression in the 1930s and rallied the entire country into an economic superpower with the strongest and most powerful military in the world. But when it came to military matters, while he liked to pretend otherwise, the truth was he made huge mistakes with the military. And it's understandable why - The German war machine, at first, just rolled over entire countries. No one was able to stop them, and everyone in Germany thought they were invincible.

If Germany never attacked Russia, and the agreement remained in place, Germany never would have been bogged down in mother Russia and would have turned it's attention to England. Depending on what involvement the US had at that point - I'm guessing the US would have been all in - it would have been vastly different. Just imagine if during the "Battle of Britain" (where Germany was attempting to gain air superiority over the UK) only half of Germany's resources (planes) were used. Then imagine Germany didn't have to use any of it's planes in Russia, and had twice as many men and planes attacking the UK. Then imagine all of those troops no longer needed in Russia, who could have attempted to land in the UK. Game changer for sure.

But the truth is more like the Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact was nothing more than a stall tactic - They knew it was only a matter of time before Germany attacked Russia?

Also... Wasn't the Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact more or less approved by the Western World because they wanted entire countries to fall under the Soviet sphere of influence?

Good lord, the federal government needs to take a serious look at the Florida public school system and how its failing generations of students.

Germans discovered nuclear fission. They led the world in this area at the time.

Several nations were scrambling to build and test the first bomb at the same time. The allied forces were able to do so first, in large part due to the help of captured German physicists as well as captured documents and materials. Germany didn't do it first because they were a little pre-occupied with losing the war and being invaded/bombed into oblivion.

The Soviets were behind because they lacked sufficient materials.

I don't think Hitler knew about the bombing of Pearl Harbor, did he? I don't recall anything about Japan informing Germany before hand. I was always under the impression that Hitler learned about it after the fact, and then declared war on the US.

for most people in western europe under german occupation life remained pretty normal however i'm sure they would have loved those involved with adult

They had a lot of help

- Hitler misjudging how easy it would be to take stalingrad.
- Hitler misjudging how hard it would be to fight through a Russian winter (much less, several).
- Hitler misjudging Stalins resolve to keep putting young, unarmed boys in front of German machine gun bullets until Germany finally ran out of bullets.

Russias greatest feat was the speed with which they modernized their military, weapons and tactics and fought back. Making the jump from cavalry to eventually fairly well designed fighter plans and tanks. Of course, he had a tendency to murder all his ranking military offices at the slightest hint of bad news, which just caused mounting deaths and failed offensives and counter offensives.

Generally speaking, they won the war because of harsh winters and by Stalin not giving a fuck how many Russian soldiers died and by not caring what the cost was and by orchestrating the death of upwards of 30,000,000 of their own people in the process of "defending the motherland". And Stalin didn't do it alone. Germany was fighting on multiple fronts and fucked himself. Had he concentrated the full weight of Germany's military might on the Soviet Union, he would have wiped that place off the map quickly.

don't be so sure about the muslims, they made great allies at that time against the jews.

He may have. And If my ally did something stupid like that I'd be pissed. it's called teamwork.

So did a lot of European citizens. Of course, no one wants to talk about that.

:2 cents:

YOU are the idiot go look it up. The Nazi believed it took 7X more the material to build bomb that it actually it. That's why they gave up.

Agreed.

However, if Hitler would have been smart, he would have waited until he took over more of Europe or had all of the resources he needed to beat them technologically.

They claim that the "Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party " actually developed out of that...

:2 cents:

that sounds about correct. the amount of T34 tanks Russia was producing in that short time is mindblowing

Yeah... Nazi Germany "gave up" on developing nuclear weapons. Everyone knows how dumb those German physicists were.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Sort of.

Two Germans discovered nuclear fission, but Nazi Germany - with their interests in weapons that would destroy the enemy - failed to capitalize on it.
Politicisation of the German scientific community caused a lot of scientists to leave Germany, and by 1942 they gave up an creating a nuclear program - While the US was devoting massive amounts of money and man power into the Manhatten program. After 1942 Germany still funded research, but that wasn't even done by the military.

This makes for an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...energy_project

I do not believe Germany, from any historical accounts, had any knowledge in that.

Japan had the same issues as Germany. They needed to knock out the American fleet in the Pacific so they could keep the territories they had, while attacking some others for the natural resources they needed to maintain the war machine.

With both countries, their Achilles heel was lack of natural resources needed to maintain.

he couldn't wait - not enough oil, not enough food. he needed the resources from Russia

he just didn't need their people

Yeah, at the end of the day it all boiled down to numbers.

If he would not have been so aggressive in the way he was taking over countries, he probably could have keep the U.S. and some of the others on the side lines a few more years. If he would have been smart and put more money and resources into their jet fighters, and V2 programs, in 2-3 more years they could have done more with less.

Yeah, they were barely coming into the industrial age at the time (thank you prison labor camps!!) - militarily, they were in the previous century. They made a quantum leap forward. If I recall correctly, Stalin's own generals like Zhukov and the other big ones at the time were still arguing that cavalry will never go away and play a dominant role right up until Germany attacked them. I think they also made some big advances in artillery as well. It was unreal how fast they were able to adapt and hold Germany at bay. World War II itself is interesting in that respect in terms of new technology entering the war and how fast new technology was developed to counter it.

God you are stupid.

Agreed. Hitler and Stalin would have eventually turned on each other, assuming Hitler lived long enough. However, between German technology of the time and the sheer volumes of human resources Russia had, they could have taken over most of Europe easily. Stalin still managed to do it (i.e. U.S.S.R.).

it is not that much unlikely to assume that at least a few of them realized what a nuclear bomb could do and while not openly being opposed, still slowed the development down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg

That is correct.
:2 cents:

I lived a few years in St Petersburg. This part of the history there is almost too depressing to think about. There is a WWII museum there that will really put life and "problems" into perspective.

Exactly. The lack of available nature resources, and Hitler's meddling, repeatedly interfered with their progress. If they would have been rolling out their jet fighters, instead of Hitler trying to make them bombers and interceptors, they could have dominated the skies years before they came back to the program.

yeah, thank god patience and tactical planning were not his strong points

imo, shouldn't weight technology so high. History has plenty of examples of superior technology not triumphing over will and determination from ancient times to present. Russians have a history of defense but not conquest so even if they had remained allies it would only have been a material advantage that was equally matched by allied resources.

Slowed down? Sure. They were also losing two wars and being invaded, which put a damper on things. However, at no point did Germany say "Fuck it, we're done with this shit". All the major powers at the time were aggressively pursuing a nuclear bomb and were actively stealing everyone's knowledge from each other, if not sharing it... its not like German physicists were just confused and gave up, as our little swamp loving inbred friend is trying to suggest.

I do not believe that would have happened per se. However, given a few more years, Hitler's stealth bomber would have been ready and able to hit New York and Washington.

They basically have a history of drawing an invading force deeper and deeper into a frozen, impossible to supply hell and then letting them die on their own.

Allied resources are one thing.

However, Germany would have been able to get the resources it needed (via it's pact), for the fuel, steel, and bomb materials much easier. Which would have allowed them to further advance their rocket and jet technologies. Which was easily years advanced over anyone else at the time. Plus they would not have lost all of their battle hardened senior generals and troops in that war with Russia.

:2 cents: