Change in the Arab World - discuss.
 

With the recent wave of pro-democracy uprisings in the Arab world, how do the armchair philosophers of GFY weigh in as to the global repercussions of such change, and how it will affect their home countries as well?

The people in these countries have realized that they were being controlled by proxy by the West (mainly USA). We were getting their resources on the cheap. I suspect TPTB will be putting a plan in place to regain control of these countries, most likely using Debt; get the IMF to pump huge sums of money in that they can never repay, when they can't repay take their resources as payment, like what's happened with Greece

their women are hairy.

CIA is stirring shit up to invade Libya for OIL

Could not have said that any better if I took 2 days to prepare it. That's exactly what is going to happen. :2 cents:

Definitely an interesting theory, for sure. I'm mostly interested in seeing how this wave of change is going to affect Arab-Israeli relations. I'm curious to see if more politically moderate governments (as opposed to theocracies and dictatorships) will make for less tension in that region. Regardless of differences in doctrine, I'm certain that most people (Muslim or Jewish) would much rather live in peace than constantly be worried about whose village will get shelled next.

How much debt are the oil producers in?

Anyone who thinks he can predict the outcome of this probably still thinks the Earth is flat and the Moon is made of cheese.

This is exactly what George W. Bush had planned and set in motion during his time in office. He is the ultimate architect of peace.

depends on how far it will all go, and how much the new governments wanna play ball

and of course, the unspoken problems of who is funding this dissent. China has been putting fingers in a few pies to help it's growth, so this all might just be a turf war

Libya are on a similar rank with Ireland and as you might know Ireland is in a mess. When the US puts a puppet in charge, not much of the oil money tends to go to the people, but rather to the puppet. This is why the US are so desperate to get rid of Chavez in Venezuela as he charges a fair price for the oil and shares the profits with the people.

Irish debt ranked with Libya and S Africa
http://www.irishexaminer.com/busines...idsnojey/rss2/

Alex Jones told me it's all a plan to send me to a Fema camp, so this is horrible

Confessions of an Economic Hitman
https://youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

I can't predict how the Middle East is going to end up. I honestly believe it's less about their religion and more about their lack of tolerance for anything different. Here in the US we don't care if your Irish or Italian or Lebanese or Polish. Generally speaking when considering hiring someone or doing business with someone, we don't say "He's Irish, I don't trust him". The UPS store is run by an Indian family but that has no importance to me what so ever when I need a package shipped.

But in the Middle East they seem to take this seriously. Seems to be a lot of problems with shiite vs sunni. Factor in other versions of Islam, a handful of other nationalities, over all hatred for the Western world, mix in a few power hungry leader.... And it's just waiting to explode.

Tolerance is the key. People of the Middle East needs to accept other people from other religions, countries, nationalities, etc.

That got an actual laugh out of me! Thanks.

No, we aren't. Libya isn't even in the top fifteen oil exporters to the US.

And even then, we aren't getting this oil on the cheap. We are paying out the ass for it. We get most of our oil from Canada and Mexico, and you don't see them bitching about how the US is controlling them.

The truth is the western world had a huge influence in the Middle East - mostly the UK - and when the UK walked away from it all they were left on their own. They invested everything into oil, and that's all they have.

When the oil runs out they are screwed.

Once we get to top level of the oil companies we're talking about globalists, the elite, the people are are at the very top. Many of these individuals come from the USA and UK, they are also located elsewhere. These are the ones who can get their oil on the cheap to then resell at whatever price they choose, they can also ensure that their puppet spends the received oil money in companies that they have shares in or own. They don't necessarily sell the oil to the USA or UK, they can sell it wherever they like on the global market

Yes...they will be screwed and will go back to their camels...tribes and a nomadic type of life.

What you are calling a "wave of pro-democracy"...will not resemble western democracy other than casting a vote...which some of the countries already do vote. There is not going to be any good come out of the Mid-East...ever.

I don't know why you would think that. In the Middle East people are friendlier than they are anywhere else in the world. If you have ever gone there you'd know that, they bend over backwards to show good hospitality to you as long as you're not giving them a reason to hate you. Anyone and everyone is welcome, the Polish or Irish guy is just as welcome as the next guy, welcome to live there open up shop and be one of the bunch.

The people in the Middle East hate Americans because you guys are the ones supporting and funding their oppression. Why wouldn't they hate Americans?

Anyone who has gone to the Middle East and isn't an American will agree with me, hands down the nicest people on Earth. The lack of tolerance for anything different? They have diverse cultures there, Christians living alongside Muslims for the longest time with no problems. Sunni and Shiite isn't the giant issue you think it is, it's blown way out of proportion in the media and is as much a feud as is the Orthodox Christian vs Catholic thing and that's really not an issue around here, is it?

Arabs have been living in the center of the world for the history of mankind. They are very tolerant, look at all the people that go to Dubai. Historically Arabs have always been very welcoming and friendly people, known throughout the world as hospitable and courteous. It is only recently that people have been fed this 'Arabs are monsters' idea so that they don't feel so bad about murdering them by the thousands.

Arabs are the same as me and you, and although America has only been populated for the past 300 years or so while the Middle East has been populated and exposed to people from all cultures for thousands of years. Thousands!!

anyone that pins the issues and problems in the middle east on the u.s. simply has no comprehension of history of that region.

Yes you are so right, the US wouldn't do anything to try to cause instability in the Middle East. They have nothing to do with those problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosni_Mubarak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zine_El_Abidine_Ben_Ali

Should I keep going? Please dynamo, if you know nothing about it, then stay out of the thread. You are just embarrassing yourself (yet again, again).

Here's my suggestion. Go get a book about the history of the Middle East, now take the book and go all the way somewhere nice and quiet, where no one will bug you. Now use your fingers and pry the covers of the book open and now - wait for it - read the book. Then just remember what you read and then MAYBE you JUST MIGHT be able to talk to me about this. Until then, like I said, since you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, stay out of the threads. Thanks.

The recent changes dramatize 2 truths

The democracy the West wants for itself is different from the democracy it wants for other countries

A region's particular implementations of Forms of government are reflections of the underlying culture it governs

again, anyone who thinks the last 60 years compares to the last 3500 years simply has no ability to comprehend complex issues such as these.

What? Are you serious man? You're only going back 3500 years? I was going back 4.5 billion years since the creation of the Earth.

If you think that the past 3500 years compares to the last 4.5 billion then you have no ability to comprehend complex issues such as these.

Pffft 3500 years. If you don't start from the beginning then you shouldn't even bother starting right? Shit both of us are probably wrong though, it was probably something that happened during the big bang that caused all of this and we don't even know about it. :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

maybe even pre big bang!

How it will all turn out depends on what level of democracy they end up with and then who they elect once they have that power. Not too long ago ( I think it was 2007) Syria had free elections and most of the people they elected were members of Hezbollah. If a country like Egypt gets rid of their dictator only to elect radicals, it won't really change anything nor will it improve much.

However, if they elect more moderate leaders and start to understand that they need women to play a major role in running their societies it could make for a major game change in the world.

look, nothing is going to change, here's why. the collapses are being manifested via the military. the top leaders of these military's already get greased 100s of millions of dollars on the side. as they take over, they have no choice but to continue that "system". it's the same it has always been-

I think you mean Lebanon lol. Hezbollah is a political group that is against Israel, that's why it is labeled a terrorist organization by the US and Israel. The rest of the world don't see them that way and to the rest of the world they are the legitimate democratically elected Lebanese government. They are only radicals from the American point of view in that they fight for what they want instead of doing nothing. If you really think about it Americans are way, way, way more radical than they are about trying to push their ways on the world.

The idea isn't what leaders they elect, if they elect radicals good for them, if they elect moderates good for them. The idea is it isn't up to us who they elect, and if they elect someone who doesn't think along the same lines as we do then we have to work with them and come to a compromise. Not just kill them. That's what's important, that democracy happens, not that Americans are happy.

But you have that in all societies, don't you? The rich rule the poor. In Libya they had Gadhafi for forty years.

You miss the larger picture. Oil has already risen due to this uprising and even though Libya may not be a main supplier to the USA for oil, the USA still has to pay for the price hike. It doesn't matter where the oil goes, the entire world pays the price.

:1orglaugh That was an unexpected gift. Sort of like your first herpes outbreak.

The people of that region are not ready to enter a modern world...they are barely ahead of African tribes and South American tribes that still live...for the most part like they did a 1000 years ago. If it were not for oil and western influence they would not even be as advanced as they are and when the oil is gone they will revert back to their former ways of living.

How do we support their oppression? By giving them weapons to defeat the Soviets? By giving them billions for their oil?

Don't tell me that the Middle East lives in a world where they tolerate each other. Their entire world is divided on these lines. Just this morning on the radio I was listened to a report on this exact topic where they looked into seeing if the Western press makes this divide much bigger than it is. The funny thing is while the local population said it's not an issue, but yet when they talked to one group they couldn't find someone from the other group.

And don't tell me Christians live peacefully in the Middle East. Not too long ago they were having gun battles in Egypt - Christians being shot outside of their church and the police doing nothing to stop them. Funny because I don't recall Methodists packing heat shooting Christians or even Christians shooting Muslims here in the US.

lol you are right. It was Lebanon. . . too much allergy medicine for me today :)

While we can argue whether Hezbollah is a terrorist group or not, there is no changing that they were elected so, like you say, we have to either learn to deal with them and try to compromise. The problem is many radicals do not have any interest in compromise.

I have said for a long time there are four main problems with the middle east. 1. many of the countries have a huge separation of wealth.There are a few very rich people, a lot of very poor people an a very small middle class. 2. They have a huge lack of education. With an undereducated society people tend to believe what they are told. 3. They have a lack of information. The governments control the flow of information to the people and keep them in the dark. 4. Many of these countries treat women like 3rd class citizens.

Until they fix these problems it won't matter who they elect, they will always have unrest and turmoil. Fixing those problems won't solve their every ill, but it can go a long way. They need to look at Qatar. The leadership of that country recognizes that they need women in positions of power and that they need an educated population and that they need outside investment into their country to create jobs and develop long term stability.

My thought is that if they elect more moderate leaders they might be more willing to help phase some of these changes in where a radical leader may be less likely. We are seeing some of this changing now. The flow of information is getting harder and harder to stop and people are demanding more from their leaders, but there is a long way to go.

just my 2 cents.

I'm not missing the larger picture at all. I understand how OPEC works. But it's funny how people say we "oppress the Middle East" yet anytime OPEC wants they can squeeze our balls. What we need to do is cut the Middle East - thus OPEC - off and get our oil from local sources.

I don't give a shit. I hope oil doubles - I mean, gas. The more gas costs the less traffic there is for me to deal with. I'd gladly pay twice as much for gas and have half the cars on the road.

As with nearly all commodities, instability of supply == price increase. I drive a 300ZX which drinks gas like a bum drinks boxed wine, and I nearly cried when I spent $54 on a tank of 93 octane. :helpme

that is exactly my point. the u.s. meddling over there over the last 60 years makes zero difference. those dictators want their people to hate america, it takes the heat off them.

Almost everyone is welcome...Almost... unless you're gay you shouldn't visit most Countries, very bad for them. And non-Muslims shouldn't touch the same water/food in many Countries, and women should stay covered and must be in some places... oh and they blow 'each other up/tribes of families, ect'.. and have for, what did you say... thousands of years?

While I don't think we should be in the Middle East at all.....you sure as hell aren't going to feed me the bullshit that they are overall nice welcoming people or tolerant people - because that is complete bullshit.

I agree regarding tolerance but Read up on history. Cordova and other Arab and Muslim kingdoms were very tolerant of religious diversity and fostered the sciences. While Europe was stuck in the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was having its Golden Age.

When they lost that tolerance, it coincided with their decline. In the West, once Protestant Europe got out of Catholicism's shadow and impelemented tolerance and equality under the law, their economies blew up -- compare protestant and catholic countries in Europe, even now. There's a pattern here. Tolerance and the ability to choose freedome from dogma is the key to progress.

Unless, of course, you have a woman with you. I went to Egypt several years ago and while most of the people were very friendly to us I think much of it was simply because we were tourist. However, I did spend a day out with just a cab driver and myself and did meet a lot of cool people who were nice to me.

That said there were two situations that stuck out in my mind. One afternoon we all went to a market. Our tour guide told us that women can't be alone. There were some women who were traveling without guys and the guide said they need to group up so they are with a man or they could have some problems.

The last night I was there a bunch of us went out to smoke the hookah pipe and celebrate the end of our vacation. It took us nearly an hour to find a hookah place that would allow women and they made us sit outside.

So you are welcome and part of the party, unless you have a vagina.

How do we Americans oppress them? We do help fund their government through various ways mostly through the purchase of oil, but it is their leadership that chooses to oppress us. Do you think the President of the US is telling the leaders of Saudi Arabia to treat its citizens like dogs?


[/QUOTE]Anyone who has gone to the Middle East and isn't an American will agree with me, hands down the nicest people on Earth. The lack of tolerance for anything different? They have diverse cultures there, Christians living alongside Muslims for the longest time with no problems. Sunni and Shiite isn't the giant issue you think it is, it's blown way out of proportion in the media and is as much a feud as is the Orthodox Christian vs Catholic thing and that's really not an issue around here, is it?

Arabs have been living in the center of the world for the history of mankind. They are very tolerant, look at all the people that go to Dubai. Historically Arabs have always been very welcoming and friendly people, known throughout the world as hospitable and courteous. It is only recently that people have been fed this 'Arabs are monsters' idea so that they don't feel so bad about murdering them by the thousands.[/QUOTE]

There has been nothing but unrest, violence and problems in that part of the world since the beginning of written history. Herodotus wrote about the unrest around 450 BC and it hasn't stopped. It seems to me like the Arab states mostly hate each other, but they all agree to hate Israel, but if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow they would go right back to fighting each other.

That part of the world has known nothing but blood in the sand since the beginning of time. I'm not saying they a warmongers, but I don't think they are as peaceful as you might think.

In the end this is true. A lot of middle eastern people that I have known in my life just want to be happy. They want to live their lives, raise their families and be successful.

Christians DO live peacefully in the Middle East.

And I don't know how you don't recall Christians shooting Muslims, isn't that what you guys are doing there right now?

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

The only intolerance in the world is American intolerance of other people.

WOW! that is a pretty bold statement and a completely ignorant one.

We Americans are often intolerant. I won't disagree with that. But we are not the only ones. There is plenty of intolerance in the middle east from both sides.

Yes, damn them for wanting to protect women. In some places in the world the idea that American women are strutting around with their tits hanging out and their asses sticking out is disgusting. Do you think when Egyptian people come to America they ask the women to cover up? Of course not, they understand that in different places there are different cultures. Just like they don't agree with the way you guys treat women, it doesn't mean that you guys are doing it wrong and they are right. It's just two different ways of doing things.

The idea there isn't to keep the women from enjoying themselves, it's to keep them out of situations where they would be tempted to do bad things. It's either that, or enjoy the 50% divorce rate and the loss of any family structure like is happening in America. Men are treated the same way, and they are supposed to lower their gaze if a woman comes by that isn't their wife. It's just about keeping out of bad situations so that you don't even need to resist temptation, you just keep it away altogether.


You guys just supported a dictator for 30 years in Egypt by funding him and supporting him even though it was widely known that his elections were fraudulent and he didn't allow any opposition. He wouldn't have been able to do it without the aid from the United States keeping him in power.

Then there's the ex-leader of Tunisia that you guys supported and funded, when you guys put a dictator into Iran, when you guys fund and support Israel. All ways that the US has helped oppress the Arab people.

And that draws a stark contrast to what part of the world that has been peaceful? The whole world has been 'nothing but unrest, violence and problems' since the beginning of written history. To say that because throughout history England was always involved in wars means that now the British couldn't be civilized and live in peace would be ridiculous. Why are Arabs any different than the British?


:)

Thailand catered to the Arab countries and they have been POURING in. What was once a single Arab street in my city has turned into Arabs and businesses catering to Arabs all over town now. They spread like a virus.

The Arabs who are coming here are rude, loud, obnoxious, and they smell. They beat on the Thai girls and will literally just try to push you out of the way to cut in front of you at 7-11. The Thais love to kick their ass because they are such assholes.

With that said, I've met some cool and laid back Arabs over the years. It just seems that the bulk of them are dicks.

Side note, the one Arab street they all started on here has many unofficial names... Soi Arab, Soi Bin Ladin, Dirka Dirka Dirka Street, and Arab Alley.

There is a difference between people in the Middle East being intolerant of Americans because of their decades of meddling in the Middle East and Americans being intolerant of everyone just because they aren't Americans.

Which is very much the case. Mexicans - you guys hate them. Canadians - those fucking socialists. French - fuck the French those are Freedom Fries. Chinese - they are trying to take us over. Russians - fucking communists. Japanese - fucking Japs.

No other country in the world just lays down a general blanket of hate like the United States does.

Can you really expect anyone decent to move to where you live though? How many Americans you meet there that are what you want people to think of your average American?

And they think it's bullshit that you weren't raped by a priest growing up. And that you don't fuck your sister daily right after you wank off your dad.

You see how sometimes the stereotypes that people think of you aren't always correct. Americans fail to see that their stereotype in the rest of the world is a bunch of fat, dumb, incestuous hicks who know nothing more than being raped by their priests and shooting off their guns. Is that really the truth? You can't feed me the bullshit that most of you haven't fucked your sisters or been raped by a priest because that is complete bullshit.

You see what I did there? Don't be a dummy and use stereotypes to make up your image of people because you might be shocked if someone used a stereotype to make up an image of you.

The people in the Middle East are a million times nicer and more welcoming than Americans. They are much more tolerant of different people and while the United States' founders were off raping their slave girls, the Middle East didn't see blacks as any different than anyone else and they were equals. You guys not only hate each other but are afraid of each other and treat each other with suspicion. And that's what you do to your fellow Americans. With foreigners you guys think that somehow because they aren't from America that somehow you guys are better than they are or they wish they were you.


Wait so 60 years of meddling doesn't give the Middle East the right to hate America, but just one attack on the US by a stateless group gives Americans carte blanche to go in and kill Arabs and Muslims as they see fit? Laughable.

hey, folks are free to hate whomever they want, i've never said otherwise. but the 2nd post in this thread made out the uprising to be a result of some sort of revelation by muslims that they are being controlled by u.s. that's not the case.