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mika

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#1

Hoiw many allies USA have for the attack?

08-27-2002, 12:11 AM

I don't mean western allies, but allies in the Mid East area, that would support the attack like they did in Persian Gulf War.

At least Qatar and Saudi-Arabia have announced that their bases cannot be used against Iraq.

Does US still have bases in the area, or does it look like they need to attack from carriers only (and possibly Turkey)?

And what if they need land troops?
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#2

08-27-2002, 12:13 AM

I know there are huge military camps in Turkey, I guess they'll be launching airstrikes from there.
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#3

08-27-2002, 12:14 AM

Deals will be struck and some money hungry country will be bought. It's only a matter of time. The leaders in the middle east are even bigger whores then the leaders of the western world...

Yup, Equinox is right.

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08-27-2002, 01:38 AM

Dont be fooled guys....

There is a strong case for attacking Iraq, but unfortunately its a hard case to make to a public and an even harder case to make to foreign governments who still see Iraq having weapons of mass destruction as a kind of equality (stupid though that may seem).

End of the day any attack on Iraq will have *devastating* consequences for the entire world so I would urge you to think along these lines. Remember that one of the biggest sources of world wealth is in oil - which the middle east has a monopoly on.

They turn the taps off..... our cars, planes and tanks stop rolling so from a strategic point of view they kinda hold the cards and I suspect that this is an underlying reason why US want to get a "foothold" in Iraq. Russia has been forging alliances with Iran and Iraq (as you recently saw on CNN) with their new trade deals so I think we can count our "apparent" friend out. And as the war goes on, we will lose more and more support so its just us.

Wish there was another solution.

Last edited by Vendot; 08-27-2002, 01:40 AM.

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08-27-2002, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by vendot
Dont be fooled guys....

There is a strong case for attacking Iraq, but unfortunately its a hard case to make to a public and an even harder case to make to foreign governments who still see Iraq having weapons of mass destruction as a kind of equality (stupid though that may seem).

End of the day any attack on Iraq will have *devastating* consequences for the entire world so I would urge you to think along these lines. Remember that one of the biggest sources of world wealth is in oil - which the middle east has a monopoly on.

They turn the taps off..... our cars, planes and tanks stop rolling so from a strategic point of view they kinda hold the cards and I suspect that this is an underlying reason why US want to get a "foothold" in Iraq. Russia has been forging alliances with Iran and Iraq (as you recently saw on CNN) with their new trade deals so I think we can count our "apparent" friend out. And as the war goes on, we will lose more and more support so its just us.

Wish there was another solution.

I just want to clear some stuff out

1. Kuwait ( which you saved in the Gulf war) will give you oil
2. You can just take it...if it's war there is no such thing as "turning the taps off" you just take it
3. England will always be on your ally
4. in case of a "world war" (russia+all the arab countries) Israel will get into it...
none of the arab countries has nukes...so in a case of "back aginst the wall" we'll use nukes

if the U.S gives us "green light" to attack we can do massive damage to the arab countries around us...and making some parking space for the U.S aircrafts

God Bless America
Long Live Israel

peace

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#6

08-27-2002, 01:51 AM

we should invade saudi arabia too
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#7

08-27-2002, 02:01 AM

Anyone who thinks the Saudis are friendly towards the US are terribly wrong. Even the fucking Kuwaitis hate the US, though you saved their asses in the gulf war. Now, thats what I call gratitude.
Saudi Arabia is not very unlike Afghanistan under the taliban regime, the only difference is they have oil, and their religious terror regime is toned down because of that.
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#8

08-27-2002, 02:05 AM

We can get our oil from South-America, Canada and our good Russian friends.

Or we could let our cars run on other fuel types, but that is another story......

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#9

08-27-2002, 02:07 AM
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#10

08-27-2002, 02:10 AM

invade Egypt too

wouldn't it be cool to take a few of those pyramids back home

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#11

08-27-2002, 02:12 AM

I'm glad you guys brought up the subject of oil... Any truly educated person knows that weapons of mass destruction and terorism are smoke screens. The real agenda IS oil! And of course the almighty dollar...

You just have to look at George Bushes background to know the big picture and the real story... He's an oil guy. The big companys in oil put him where he is - he owes them! That's why he's ripping up all these proposed environmental laws - they work against who is really pulling the strings.
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#12

08-27-2002, 02:26 AM

you mean it's not about democracy and creating world peace?

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#13

08-27-2002, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Rocky
invade Egypt too
wouldn't it be cool to take a few of those pyramids back home

Sure, if you help me I think we could carry one out.

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#14

08-27-2002, 02:35 AM

And of course the Bush family's owning a significant amount of an arms company has nothing to do with it...
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#15

08-27-2002, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by .:Frog:.

Sure, if you help me I think we could carry one out.

cool!

maybe pick up that damn Sphinxy thing while we're at it

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#16

08-27-2002, 02:45 AM

> Kuwait ( which you saved in the Gulf war) will give you oil

Not if their thrown into turmoil... lest we mention the possibility that their governments will be overthrown.

> none of the arab countries has nukes...so in a case of
> "back aginst the wall" we'll use nukes

You must be kidding yourself.... apart from the well established fact that there are countless missing suicase nukes missing from soviet inventory, you really think the arab nations dont possess nukes? They're hardly gonna advertise the fact and risk coming under inspections threat from the US....

Sheesh the nuclear bomb was invented around 50 years ago. The kind of weapons that we know about today are hundreds of times more powerful let alone the ones that are being developed in secret.

Once Russia realises that the arab nations can solve their economic woes, we lose them and the threat increases. I say don't attack Iraq - just be highly defensive. At the end of the day we would never be a first mover in a nuke strike - the US is a democratic and free nation and although I question the way in which US goes about its business in terms of unilateral actions, fundamentally it believes in peace.

Last edited by Vendot; 08-27-2002, 02:47 AM.

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#17

08-27-2002, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by vendot

Sheesh the nuclear bomb was invented around 50 years ago. The kind of weapons that we know about today are hundreds of times more powerful let alone the ones that are being developed in secret.

when i was talking about nukes i ment "hydrogen" bombs (whatever it spells like)

nothing can solve the russian economey since it's run by "gangs"
doing biz with the arab world only make a few russians richer...that's all

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#18

08-27-2002, 02:59 AM

> you mean it's not about democracy and creating world peace?

I dunno if youre being sarcastic but its a good point. I dont think theres any question about Saddam posing a threat. I mean all he had to do was let inspectors do their job and that would have been that. Instead he chose to prolong things and toy with the US for countless years (particularly in recent months).

On the other hand, Oil is a major issue and I find it difficult to accept that its not at least a part of the underlying agenda. The problem is that arab nations feel the same way and so I think they will pretty much rally together when it comes down to it.

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#19

08-27-2002, 03:29 AM

KingK7,

That ia good point. Here is a Gallup poll from Feb, 2002. of citizens living in 9 Arab countries:

Have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the United States
Country Favorable Unfavorable Neither Lebanon 41% 40% 19%
Turkey 40% 33% 25%
Kuwait 28% 41% 31%
Indonesia 27% 30% 43%
Jordan 22% 62% 16%
Morocco 22% 41% 19%
Saudi Arabia 16% 64% 19%
Iran 14% 63% 14%
Pakistan 9% 68% 23%
Total 22% 53% 23%

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#20

08-27-2002, 03:53 AM

Countless articles in the recent past from the differnt news sites state that the US gets ONLY 7% of its oil from the middle east, whereas the rest of the World (such as the UK and Europe) rely heavily on that source for their oil.

And OPEC would never repeat their screwup from the 70's and cut back a serious amount on their production amounts. Most of you weren't even alive yet, to see the inner turmoil they created on themselves and their economies when they did that. It took them years to get back into the black from that snafu.

Bottom line? The US could survive without the Mid East oil reserves for alot of years.

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#21

08-27-2002, 04:11 AM

Turkish government already announced that they will not let Usa to use army bases in Turkey unless the economical loss is compensated. Iraq does not produce anything and they use to buy all their shit from Turkey. After the Gulf war the trade between Iraq and Turkey has stopped. And Usa did not compansated the loss.

Here in Turkey we hate all the Arab nations more than you guys do, but this time a war is very dangerous for the security of Israel and Turkey. That fucking arabs may attack to Turkey and Israel with the weapons that they bought from Russia. So, i think Usa, Turkey and Israel should focus on setting up a civil war in Iraq and use Iraq residents to kill saddam.
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#22

08-27-2002, 04:12 AM

The numbers I've read are a little different and a little scattered. I've seen about that 7% figure from Saudi Arabia alone. I've seen 13% for the Middle East figure. I've also seen 10% for the Middle East figure.

It is maybe interesting that many US oil refineries purchase their crude indirectly from Middle East sources through Russia. A 2001 Reuter's report (reported on ABC) estimated that 9% of US Oil imports came from Iraq via Russia. I don't how much weight to place on that story but it's out there. Maybe it's bullshit. Maybe it's true.

At any rate, less than 15% maximum directly from the Middle East. The US is ok. You're right. This ain't exactly 1973.

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#23

08-27-2002, 04:15 AM

> the US gets ONLY 7% of its oil from the middle east

No much more than that but I would ask you a more important question: "Where does the US get its oil?"

Im no oil expert..... but I imagine a lot of the extra comes from the sea and from Russia.

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#24

08-27-2002, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by nemesis
Turkish government already announced that they will not let Usa to use army bases in Turkey unless the economical loss is compensated. Iraq does not produce anything and they use to buy all their shit from Turkey. After the Gulf war the trade between Iraq and Turkey has stopped. And Usa did not compansated the loss.

Here in Turkey we hate all the Arab nations more than you guys do, but this time a war is very dangerous for the security of Israel and Turkey. That fucking arabs may attack to Turkey and Israel with the weapons that they bought from Russia. So, i think Usa, Turkey and Israel should focus on setting up a civil war in Iraq and use Iraq residents to kill saddam.

I love Turkey...just been in Bodrom (spelling)
Turkey is far from being a religious country...and they aren't arabs

the arab countries won't attack Israel-Turkey on a mass scale cause they know that they will go down

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#25

08-27-2002, 04:29 AM

Iraq has very little oil, and it is one of their few exports. This is the primary reason they invaded Kuwait, in response to G. Bush Sr.'s putting pressure on Kuwait to over-produce and thus drop the price floor. Nowdays, oil isn't necessarily bought directly from one country or another, rather from a world market.

Since then Iraq has continued its genocide upon Iraqi people and has continued their research and development towards nuclear capability and long-range ballistics to deliver those unconventional weapons and the biological/chemical weapons they already have (the "scud" is a relatively short-range missile). Preventing this is a primary reason for invading Iraq, but the goals have not yet been defined nor have the means to attain them.

And as far as Arab countries attacking Israel.. well, for those of us who know our history, it was tried in 1967 (6 Days War) and Israel slaughtered 3 nations who had built up their forces on the borders on Israel for months in advance. There is no doubt that Israel has the technology (a lot of it from the US, although their pilots actually train US pilots) and the resources to defend herself.

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#26

08-27-2002, 05:05 AM

Bearing in mind that the last US general election was effectively decided by George W's brother, does anyone else find it mildly ironic that the Bush administration has said that it wants to see Iraq governed by a democracy?
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#27

08-27-2002, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by Colin

Kuwait 28% 41% 31%

I saw this CNN interview with the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US, when he commented on a poll like this.
That lying piece of shit was making wild excuses, like "they may have misunderstood the questions" and shit like that... gimme a break...
If it's one thing an muslim/arab can do, its to fucking lie through their teeth.

On another note, the muslims have begun, what I'd like to call, a "silent invasion" of the western world.
It has been proven again and again that they can NEVER be integrated into our civilizations, not even 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. Their customs and religion simply does not allow it. And they are increasing in their numbers. Cuz these fuckers do not get 1 or 2 kids... they get 7-12. It's like a fucking muslim immigrant MLM, their numbers are exploding.
They are a threat to society, and they need to be dealt with, sadly people will not realize this before it is too late.
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#28

08-27-2002, 05:41 AM

The city I am currently in here in Sweden had a survey a year ago, it turned out 52% of all citizens UNDER 19 in this city are immigrants, mostly of middle eastern descent.
In 20 years, can you fucking imagine what this city will look like?
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#29

08-27-2002, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by KingK7
They are a threat to society, and they need to be dealt with, sadly people will not realize this before it is too late.

(c) Adolf Hitler, 1939

Damn! Just invoked the "Hitler" clause....
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#30

08-27-2002, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by volante

(c) Adolf Hitler, 1939

Damn! Just invoked the "Hitler" clause....

I do not mean "dealt with" like being sent to KZ camps or shot, I am just saying they have no place in our society, they bring their shit with them, and will not integrate themselves.
Of course, this is not "politically correct" to say.
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#31

08-27-2002, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Andersen
I think the US should start planning Intergalactic domination

Don't worry... WE ARE!

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#32

08-27-2002, 06:14 AM

> They are a threat to society, and they need to be dealt
> with, sadly people will not realize this before it is too late.

Im afraid that King7 has hit this on the head though I question the way he went about. The immigrant system is the ideal means by which to launch a war within our borders.

Watch what happens to Europe in the next 5 years. Its already happening and youll see increasing news of a large volumes of muslim immigrants being launched in unless something is done about it and soon....

Personally I think they should stop the flow until this war is well and truly over. Its just too much of a risk.

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#33

08-27-2002, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by KingK7
The city I am currently in here in Sweden had a survey a year ago, it turned out 52% of all citizens UNDER 19 in this city are immigrants, mostly of middle eastern descent.
In 20 years, can you fucking imagine what this city will look like?

Bye Bye city.

Same problems in the whole European Union.
People from Turkey and Morroco come here and abuse all their new given rights.

Thats why the EU is setting up large scale plans to prevent mass immigration.

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#34

08-27-2002, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by KingK7
The city I am currently in here in Sweden had a survey a year ago, it turned out 52% of all citizens UNDER 19 in this city are immigrants, mostly of middle eastern descent.

LOL and when I think of sweden I imagine beautiful girls with blonde hair and blue eyes. No longer the case in 20 years?

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#35

08-27-2002, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by .:Frog:.

LOL and when I think of sweden I imagine beautiful girls with blonde hair and blue eyes. No longer the case in 20 years?

In 20 years you'll have to go to greece to see swedish girls...

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#36

08-27-2002, 06:51 AM

I mostly fancy East Asian women and they are in no short supply.

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#37

08-27-2002, 07:05 AM

What will attacking Iraq do?
Sadam is an asshole agreed but the next "leader" will just be an asshole like he is.
The only way is to take over the whole country I guess.
I don't like the middle east but attacking a country like Iraq and continue sanctions only results in 2,000,000 more dead children.
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#38

08-27-2002, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by vendot
Dont be fooled guys....

There is a strong case for attacking Iraq, but unfortunately its a hard case to make to a public and an even harder case to make to foreign governments who still see Iraq having weapons of mass destruction as a kind of equality (stupid though that may seem).

End of the day any attack on Iraq will have *devastating* consequences for the entire world so I would urge you to think along these lines. Remember that one of the biggest sources of world wealth is in oil - which the middle east has a monopoly on.

They turn the taps off..... our cars, planes and tanks stop rolling so from a strategic point of view they kinda hold the cards and I suspect that this is an underlying reason why US want to get a "foothold" in Iraq. Russia has been forging alliances with Iran and Iraq (as you recently saw on CNN) with their new trade deals so I think we can count our "apparent" friend out. And as the war goes on, we will lose more and more support so its just us.

Wish there was another solution.

Chicken!!
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#39

08-27-2002, 07:09 AM

Maybe its just me.. but it seems like bush wants to cover up the failure of getting Osama Bin Laden by replacing him with a new evil doer to fight.
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#40

08-27-2002, 07:19 AM

The US gets a large amount of it's oil from Venazula (that's not spelt right) we also get oil from Canada, and Russia as well.

Saddam has to be dealt with! There's no way around it.

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#41

08-27-2002, 07:19 AM

From http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/ :

Top 11 proposed names for the impending attack on Iraq.

11. Operation Enduring Scapegoat.

10. Operation Obliterate Iraq's Oil Infrastructure So That Dick Cheney's Halliburton Can Rebuild It At A Huge Profit, Like After The Last War With Iraq.

9. Operation Belated Father's Day Gift.

8. Operation Because I Said So.

7. Operation We Couldn't Find bin Laden.

6. Operation Personal Vendetta

5. Operation George Oilwell.

4. Operation Speaker Delay.

3. Operation Enron Amnesia.

2. Operation Desert Shrub.

1. Operation Just (Be) Cause
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#42

08-27-2002, 07:20 AM

Plunging the world into war isnt something that is in the best interest of any of us, no matter where we live at or belive in.

Since most of the people that get killed, maimed and the like are civillians, and the leaders are usually brought to trial years after the fact, if at all in some cases, why not take a new approach to the whole matter...

Get the world leaders that are allies for each side and let em take it outside to the UN parking lot, to kick the piss out of each other personally, that way no innocent people are hurt, no taxpayers money wasted (outside a few baseball bats, tire irons, Heavy chanis and brass knuckles) and we can get on with the world.

All this is madness will result in is humanity destroying itself instead of trying to see the beauty of each others cultural differences. Who knows, some of these people that others hate may be the best friend you never got to have cause you were blinded with hate before you saw the person for them.
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#43

08-27-2002, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by volante
Bearing in mind that the last US general election was effectively decided by George W's brother, does anyone else find it mildly ironic that the Bush administration has said that it wants to see Iraq governed by a democracy?

no. you are the only one who thinks its funny/ironic
so you want to hint that US is not a democracy? Nice angle you have chosen for the discussion man
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#44

08-27-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by KingK7
The city I am currently in here in Sweden had a survey a year ago, it turned out 52% of all citizens UNDER 19 in this city are immigrants, mostly of middle eastern descent.
In 20 years, can you fucking imagine what this city will look like?

I know some of you will laugh, mainly out of not realizing these are facts
One generation from now, Sweden will be a muslim country. This is already an irreversible process. Dempgraphically!.
Number of muslim people there, legal and illegal will increase dramatically by the fact that alot of muslims marry local sweedish girls and as muslim way goes - there children will be muslim - like it or not. In addition, muslim people make much more children than the average swidish couple (0.7 kids/family or something like that). Coupled with the negative natural growth of the native swedish people (that means more (old) people die than babies born each year)
Even if the father dont have voting right, the kids do.

You ask if its a bad thing?
well... Not if you are a muslim

just stating the facts.
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#45

08-27-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by ChrisH
The US gets a large amount of it's oil from Venazula (that's not spelt right) we also get oil from Canada, and Russia as well.

Saddam has to be dealt with! There's no way around it.

I think we need some more hijacked jets flying into New York City... more death and destruction... besides, the fuckers obviously missed you last time!
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#46

08-27-2002, 07:41 AM

Hmm, Interresting topic
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#47

08-27-2002, 07:53 AM

> All this is madness will result in is humanity destroying
> itself instead of trying to see the beauty of each others
> cultural differences. Who knows, some of these people
> that others hate may be the best friend you never got to
> have cause you were blinded with hate before you saw
> the person for them.

Very well put..... and I could not agree more. Lack of education can turn propaganda into racism and hate mongering amongst the people, particularly less educated masses.

Many of the great prophets tell of a coming clash of civilizations, east - particularly Snake (Russia) Carthage (Africa) and Mesopotamia (Iran/Iraq) versus west (US, Canada, Europe) or Muslim vs Christianity. They are very explicit about the details. I sure hope things get turned around and this doesnt become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Too much at stake and life is for living. End of the day you gotta thank your lucky stars and be grateful for what you have because things could be a damn site worse if hostility escalates.

"In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act." - George Orwell
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Rochard

Jägermeister Test Pilot

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#48

08-27-2002, 08:03 AM

If I recall correctly Iraq promised us "the mother of all battles". The end result was Iraqi troops surrendering to CNN news crews.

And at the time Iraq had the world's fourth largest army......

Is it really acceptable to allow Iraq to use chemical weapons when ever they feel like it? Even against their own citizens?

If Iceland was to start gassing it's own citizens...... Would the world just step aside and watch?

It's not about oil. Oil is the only export the Middle East has; It's the only thing they have to offer the world.

The US isn't planning world domination..... We just want everyone to play nice with each other.

Herschel Savage
Brooklyn, NY
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volante

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#49

08-27-2002, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by ChrisH
The US gets a large amount of it's oil from Venazula (that's not spelt right) we also get oil from Canada, and Russia as well.

Saddam has to be dealt with! There's no way around it.

Would this be the same Venezuela that recently underwent a coup resulting in the democratically elected leader being removed from power?
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XXXManager

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#50

08-27-2002, 08:11 AM

Ye. anyway... Back to the topic.
What do you care how many allies US have?
Do you think that EU leaders dont support US because they are smart and good and thought about it well and decided its stratecigally not good for world peace to attack iraq and the interest of all and that it wont achieve its goals and the US is wrong?
OR
its because they are a bunch of chickens that will sell thier mother for some oil and trade licences? and hate US because they are more powerful and can bully them?
Do you think that a chicken like cofey Anan, wants to give Iraq another last chance (and if that wont help then another last one after than etc...) because he is brave and smart?
He is a chicken with no balls that is heading a chicken organization which security council is headed my a terrorist supporting/financing country - Syria. Tell me its not a joke. He is like the kid that gets beaten and keeps saying to the one that beats him "Stop it. This is a last worning. oughhh. Stop it, Im serious. This is the last time. Oughhh. Stop it, that is enough....". So what do you say? should we keep trying the political venue?
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