The OTHER hosting thread...
 

This is just a general hosting thread and is directed at everyone as just merely being my own thoughts. There are some things that I just feel like bitching about in general :)

I'm not going to post shit in some other thread that is about a hosting company's dirty laundry or problems... that would be bad karma. From time to time, everyone has a glitch here and there. What is acceptable and unacceptable is up to their customers and not the peanut gallery.

However, some shit I'm seeing from people I thought were pretty bright is fucking rediculous.

Sleazy? Man, I would have expected more out of you. First, commenting that some other hosting company's pricing is some of the cheapest you've seen... Christ man, you and a few others need to open your eyes. Not naming names, but there are a bunch of more quiet companies doing a tremendous job with their hosting customers at much cheaper rates then you would expect.

Is hosting competitive? Heck yes. Will more hosting companies go out of business? Of course.

It comes down to some simple math boys and girls. The bulk of network infrastructure is bought and paid for before it even gets to a company like mine or hosting company B. We're all (most of us) in carrier neutral, first class data centers. They pay the millions of dollars to build out the environmental, power, and other considerations.

The billions of dollars in stock market losses paid for all the fiber.

A facility or backbone problem is completely out of the hands of a host. Should they have a contingency plan? Probably. More important though is what a customer is sold on. If you're sold on being "multi-homed" (redundant bandwidth providers) then that is what you should get.

At $1 per gig that's like paying $300+ per megabit.

Do the fucking math, tier 1 bandwidth is about $35/mbit when you buy 1000mbit and about $50/mbit when you're smaller like me buying a few hundred megabit. How much is that per gig? That's like 16 cents per gig as a raw cost.

Someone tell me again why a host needs to sell for more than $1 per gig to be profitable...? Give me a fucking break. The economics have changed but much of the retail pricing hasn't. The reason why many hosts are charging several dollars per gig is that their pricing matrix was made up when their costs were higher a year or two ago.

Here is MY list of what I think is important in a host:

1) Honesty - you sell only what you can deliver. You don't paint a picture during the sales process that is better than the service and performance you give.

2) Educate your customers. This can mean many things but first and foremost I'd say it means that teaching your customers so that they have proper expectations is important.

3) Performance - If you're selling a fast network... make sure your network is fast.

4) Support - Shit happens.. it's unavoidable. Your host should be available to you 24/7 for questions if that's the service that was marketed to you. The important thing is that your host has proper contingency planning so that they can make the best of a bad situation. Or, put more simply, they just need to work really hard so your needs are met.

I see so much fluff and BS in so many threads... and no matter what is said, it's like a broken record.... the same things are bitched about and repeated week after week.... and the same sometimes dumb questions are asked.

It truly does not matter who purchases the most bandwidth. That has absolutely no correlation to the service or performance a host can provide. This isn't a fucking penis competition guys, it's about selling a commodity called bandwidth and providing a service that keeps your sites online. Some people seem to want to glamorize others that are high profile in hosting but I find that hillarious since hosting is really about trust and employing some really smart linux and windows geeks.

I get a kick out of all the hosts that chase after business in the threads, offering prices that are lower than what's published on their website. I have an everyday low price, my clients aren't locked into contracts. Whenever I lower hosting prices, all clients rates get lowered. I've done this four times this year and I'm more profitable than ever. If a hosting customer isn't happy with my service they know that they have an open invitation to leave... and I'll help them shop AND move to another provider.

Aside from the deadbeat hosting clients out there, it just really makes me wonder what is WRONG with some hosts that their customers come to me and want to move their shit in the middle of the night. For christ's sake, what is wrong with some of you people?

I'm not perfect and neither is my hosting operation. I am prone to making mistakes from time to time... and also to occasionally just having some bad luck. What I will say is that I own up to my mistakes when they're made and that I remunerate my clients generously when such action is appropriate.

Some of you are so impressed by fancy ads in AVN, splendid trade show booths, and hookers at show parties. What's important to my hosting customers? That they can call me on my cell phone at 4am in the morning if they think they're having a problem.

Me personally...? Fuck, the last guy I would entrust my server to is a coke head with a hooker habit.

There are many great hosting companies out there to choose from... and I think that's teriffic that adult webmasters have so many to choose from. It makes most of us hosts constantly strive to be better.

One one final note I just want to leave the conversation saying... I do believe that in life people usually get what they pay for. However, this clearly does NOT apply to webhosting. Most of you have no comprehension of the cost structure inside a hosting company so your ideas of what is cheap and what is expensive are completely unfounded.

Happy hosting everyone!

Cheers,

Brad

Coke i can see...

But hookers? Come on man a $5 lincoln tunnel handjob isn't going to sink any ships :Graucho

We'll all live in a worldwide marxistic regime before that is gonna happen ... :2 cents:

Excellent post

Well said Sin. What really amazes me is that so many people just shrug thier shoulders at so much downtime from their host. Even though my sites have not been down, many guys I buy and sell traffic with have been affected this last week. This has cost me at least $1000 in lost business that simply will not be made up for, and it's not even my host that has been down. There are many hosts that can give you a 10mbps Tier 1 bandwidth box for around $450 a month. Push that box hard you can get 7mbps out of it. That's about 70 gigs a day, 2100 gigs a month for $450, comes out to less than .25 a gig. Anyone paying a dollar a gig needs to shop around. There are way too many GREAT hosts around like Sin and others to pay out your ass for good hosting.

Many hosts offer 10mbps of Tier 1 bandwidth for $450???
I haven't even seen cogent that cheap.

Maybe I am wrong but isn't Verio Tier 1?

Great post.

I can say that you used the circumstance really well this time :) (If you know what I mean :P)

Maybe it is, I'm not certain, but I still haven't seen it out there for 10 megs/$450.
Who do you know that's selling it that cheap?

great post Sin.


One thing I'd like to add to it is bandwidth billing schemes. There are 3 types of billing. Capped - 95% - Average

This is the reason you can have 3 different prices /MBit from 1 host on the same provider with the same support.

Capped 10Mbit = You can't use more than 10Mbits. You're capped. If your server 'needs' to go over, your site will slow down.
Going rate for CAPPED is about $500 for tier-1 10Mbits commitement


95% = polls your usage ever 5 minutes. At the end of the month the top 5% readings are knocked out. Good but if you spike more than 35 hours, you're fucked paying for your highest spike after the knocked out values. Prices for 95% tend to be somehwat higher than capped (maybe $750 for 10Mbit) - VERY GOOD if you have flat MRTG lines.

Average billing = pay for what you use. You get 330GB per 1MBit thoughtput if you want to use Mbits as a method of metering. Prices for this are $1000-$1500 depending on provider per 10Mbit.

This is how the same host can have 3 different pricing (per Mbit)!

read my post above. 10Mbit @ $450 for tier1 is probably capped. Same company that would offer 10Mbit capped at $450 will probably offer you $1250 - $1500 for 10Mbit on average billing.

Well yes it is capped at 10mbps. I have 4 of these boxes I run galleries only on. I push them semi-hard and average about 6mbps out of each of them. I have pushed them up to 8mbps, but I need to keep some spare bw on them. Each server does about 750k a day gallery uniques which averages out to 6mbps. I have them all round robin so each uses the exact amount of BW. Once they go over 7.5mbps, I just add another to the cluster. I like capped servers because I never have to worry about getting a bill for overage. I can just add another server as it is needed.

Verio is Tier 1.

That's another issue altogether.. Idiotic "hosting companies" (I use the quotes because I expect a certain level of technical competence before I let someone call themselves a hosting provider), like to use Tier 1 as a marketing term.

It's not. Period.

Tier 1 simply means a given provider does not buy from anyone else. That means all their traffic is handled by peering (they can view 100% of the internet through settlement free peering arrangements), and they pay no one for transit.

Verio is tier1. As is sprint, at&t, genuity, level3, gblx, etc. Williams, Cogent, yipes, etc. are not. (Cogent is pretty damned close these days though, as of last week I only saw transit routes being advertised through uunet.. and I doubt they are used too much other than to clear up some congested peering points....)

That said, the "tier" of your ISP does not directly equate to performance. In fact, buying from multiple "Not tier1" providers will in most cases give you better performance than buying from a single Tier 1.

Also Sin's pricing is off. I have yet to see a "not known to suck" (i.e. not cogent, williams, aleron, yipes, etc.) provider hand off 1000mbps for $35/meg. That's cogent pricing. $50/meg for those commit levels is probably a fairly safe bet though, with some room to wiggle down a bit. To get $60/meg @ 100Mbit commit from Verio these days means you have a pretty good sales guy.. Or are one tough fucker. ;)


We use Verio (among others) as well. The other thing that annoys me is hosters coming out and saying how Verio is "by far the most premium bandwidth evah". Get off it guys. The only reason you see Verio used so much in the adult industry is that A. They are available in many carrier neutral facilities, and B. They are cheap. C. They are cheap. D. They are cheap. Verio runs a fine network IMO, but I'd be lying to my customers if I told them "we chose verio for the sole reason that their network rocks!", pricing is by far the larger issue for any hosters that use Verio.

In the end, anyone single homed (we were for years, and still are in some places) is just that. Left up to the whims of his transit provider. I'd tell people that needed very good reliability back when we bought from a local ISP to look elsewhere for a host that provided multiple transit providers, and no single points of failure in the network topology. This is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than who the hell your host buys transit from. I'd rather be with someone using cogent and williams than someone single homed through uu.net. Of course, lots of "big boys" (haha) lie about themselves being multi-homed. It's quite comedic and in the "networking scene" many adult hosts marketing bullshit pages are pasted and laughed at since the lies are so outrageous and easily proven false it's downright sad.

To all the other adult hosters: Please stop the bullshit. Advertise what you have, nothing else. Don't fuck with your customer the way you have been in the past. It's a tough, competetive market to be sure, but in the end the honest providers will stand tall while the dishonest fuckers that like to lie to get the short term business wither away slowly. All it takes is your single line from Yipes failing to expose your "multiple redundant internet connections" lie. It's just not worth it.

peace,


-Phil

Also remember when you figure in cost.. Bandwidth is not the only, or even sometimes the least expensive cost there is.

You need...

Routing.. N*2 equipment for redudancy of course, enough to handle your traffic load if a router dies.

Customer agg. Switching.. not too bad, figure $40/port/yr.. Hard to get a good number there due to the length of investment.

Remote power switching (you all have this right? hope so.) $50/port/yr.

Servers. This is very much up to the hoster.. cost structure changes per company really. But for us, they are not a trivial cost.. Figure $1200OTC or $50/mo over 2 years (avg. server life) per 15Mbit used on shared hosting.

Power: approx $250 per batter/generator backed-up 20amp drop. Or $350 per 30amp drop. 30amps might power a full rack, depending on your density. 20 amps would power the "networking" rack most likely (but remember you need to diversify your power drops too in case a breaker fails, that probably kills about 25% of your efficiency). I think it's fair to say $350 per rack.

Floor space. Depends on your usage of course, but lets take a mid-range host and give them 100 Sq. feet. (about 5 cabinets at most). Going rate after a bit of haggle is $32/sq foot.. so $3200/mo for the cage.

Misc. stuff. Yes, these things add up. Cat5 patch cords, rackmount rails, patch panels, fiber, equipment cold-spares, etc.

Salarys. Everyone forgets about these. Techs are not cheap, unless you want to trust your shit to some idiot with an MCSE and A+ certification. Figure $55k/Yr average salary per tech. (Some places may choose to have 2 $120k/yr uber admins on staff, and $6/hr tech support guys.. I figure $55k/yr is a decent average).

So.. if your host is giving you 10% markup on bandwidth cost something is wrong. Either you're really paying more (note commitment levels and your real usage) than you realize, or costs are being shaved somewhere else. We personally choose to charge based on a "everyone carries their own rate" plan. Meaning it's pay-for-use with no commits, but the per-gig charges are a lot more than if we pushed everyone into 500GB commits @ $.40/gig. We'd make a lot more money with the latter, but we feel it's dishonest and coniving.

peace,

-Phil

Good point, Verio is good but not neccessarily the best. Take for example these network graphs. You can get an idea from the graphs which providers have a larger Tier 1 network. I've chosen these four carriers because of our personal experience.

http://www.globalcrossing.com/xml/network/net_map.xml

http://www.verio.com/company/technol...rkmapWORLD.cfm

http://www.cogentco.com/Difference/network_map.html

http://www.level3.com/userimages/dot...IP_BB_Map1.gif

Great posts Phil, really some good points. I do want to point out a few 'numbers' issues.

First, I pay near $50/mbit with Verio at my commit levels. Second, they'll likely sell me a gigabit here in Detroit for 35k as it was offered to me in the recent past. Yes, I was a hardass in my negotiations.

Second, I absolutely agree with you about hosts with low markups. In terms of markup on raw bandwidth costs, I won't sell hosting for less than twice what I pay. There are simply too many other costs involved. I was joking the other day about all the incidentals over at the colo... everything from patch cables to the little labeler I bought at Office Depot, this stuff ads up!

So, even though in many cases I charge much less than a buck... I'm no where near charging my actual cost. Also, I don't oversell my network. And, I think your explanation on the three different ways of selling bandwidth was good. I sell based on average usage without a cap on bandwidth.


Cheers,

Brad

P.S. - Including power, I'm at $25/ft for my cage space :winkwink: ...I tried to be tough as nails when I negotiated!

Oh yeah, and a gigabit Cogent connection costs only 20k last I heard versus 100mbit of Cogent which used to sell for 3k. Both are at least half of a level 3, verio, sprint, qwest, etc.

Brad

I know I will get flack for this, but I am a keen supporter of Cogent. I am not a host..just a customer.

I have my servers at the same datacenter that most cogent hosts that post on this board also call home.

I pay $400 a month for 10 mbps burstable. My server actually bottoms out at about 7.2 mbps, so I never reach the 10 mbps point. The datacenter has 24/7 support via a support control panel, and I have NEVER had to wait more then 5 minutes for a response.

In 2 years, I have experienced a one time down time of 30 minutes, that was on the hosts end. Any other server crash has been the result of user error on my part. And even then, support has performed a manual reboot for me within 10 minutes.

And resolve time on my pages compares well with any other network I have tested.

My point is....there are some bargains out there...and contrary to popular belief...get a good facility and good support and I believe Cogent can give the others a good run for their money.

And, the clincher...the support team at the datacenter I use don't post on this board. In fact, they probably don't even know it exists. To often, when I have tried other hosting companies (and I have tried a few that post on this board...no names mentioned) while I am sending urgent support requests, they are to busy shooting the shit on this board...I pay for first rate service, not clever chat on the bbs.

Bandwidth is cheap, routing it correctly is not. What sits on either end of the fiber is more important than the fiber itself. So many people fail to realize that.

I also love hearing about how with all these bw companies going Chapter 11 and their stock dying how cheap bw will become.

Quite the opposite, someone's got to put hardware on either end of the pipe, and keep it there or the cellulars will grab the pipe and poof! the prices will go up since there will be less available.

When I'm deciding on a host, I think of three things: pricing, uptime and hookers. Sinhost is top flight on all three :thumbsup :thumbsup

please tell me companies that offer bandwidth at cheaper than likewhoa's rates please. ie under $100/mbps.....

I know of a couple in the same league - noone cheaper.

I pay a lot more than that but my site is NEVER down..........

For the record, if Cogent was in Detroit I'd be selling them too.

Brad

P.S. - Thanks DTK! Happy to have you on board.

I don't know if I agree with you here. I mean, Brad knows his shit and no one can deny that. He also runs a top flight operation that is doing well on many levels in several different categories... but do you think he really has the good hookers? I'm not talking about the $10 for a fuck and suck crack ho's, I'm talking about the good babes. This has yet to be seen. I don't know if his pimp hand is really that strong in D-Town. We'll have to see.:ticking

Which Tier 1 providers are selling bandwidth for $45.00/Mbit?

I agree with most of your post BUT:

$1.00 per GB is cheap. You have to factor in the costs of having a network engineer run the network 24x7, service contracts, the cost of building out your end (switch & router), technical support costs, and the general costs of running the business itself. Of course you can make money off virtual hosting and other services such as managed services but still - is it enough to offset the costs of building, maintain, and properly managing a "truly" redundant network while providing REAL 24x7 support? (None of this pager bullshit ? someone actually answering the phone that knows what they are doing)?? If you can manage to do this and have all tier 1 bandwidth (and turn a nice profit) - I admire you.

I have sold off 3 successful hosting companies and the lowest I could ever go on bandwidth was $1.95 per GB.

http://www.datahosters.net/index.php...edicated_plans

1x 800MHz (Intel) Processor
2x 18GB SCSI HD
512MB RAM
14 Unique IP's
10Mbps Uplink

10Mbps Bandwidth
102GB(day)
Overage - $55.00/Mb

Monthly Fee - $450.00

I have 4 of these boxes for my galleries. Each box handles about 750k to galleries a day and averages 6mbps. I have bursted them past 8mbps with no problem. Running movies you could probably get 9.5mbps from them.

Brad,

Damn, $25/foot INCLUDING power at s&d is a hell of a deal. Of course, to be fair you are not exactly in "prime" datacenter territory. ;) The folks in NYC, Chicago, San Jose (well, maybe sjc is overbuilt.. I dunno) etc. have it a bit harder.

And I doubt Verio would sell you a GigE for $35k/mo nowadays.. Things are changing fast. Cogent is at $30k/mo for GigE now. Also keep in mind that paying $50/meg for 200mbit @ 95th is a hell of a lot different than paying a flat-rate for a GigE drop. You'd be lucky to get 850mbit out of a GigE port @ 95th percentile.. Your traffic ratios might be a bit different though. Also since you don't oversell you couldn't load that pipe much beyond 85% or so at PEAK times, or you run the risk of filling it.

And yes, shit like patch cords, etc. cost a hell of a lot over time. ;) I spent $150 or so at graybar on patch cords, and it barely filled the rack I was installing (granted, 2 ethernet ports per machine, but still).

Anyways, if you have S&D hookup that can get me $25/foot w/ power in chicago hit me up and I'll pay you a commision. ;) We're looking to expand there.

-Phil

Globix is not Teir 1 provider.

Phil21,

Very good posts made by you in this thread :thumbsup

datahosters do

likewhoa is a fucking rippoff
just a small example taken from their site
at the highest dedicated server plan (2,500 GB) they charge $0.99/gig - that is rediculous

a lot of good shit in this thread. Too bad I seem to have come in to late :P

However, would someone please explain to me how this is profitable to the host:

$450 for a 10mbps connection.

Even if their cost was only $35/mbps... and they budget for the average consumer to use only 5mbps... that cost is still $175 per deal. So a gross profit of roughly $275 to cover server hardware cost, rackspace/colo costs and tech support. Then there are other costs... such as an office, admin staff and all the fun little things.

Are they a not for profit organisation? I don't understand why any host would whore themselves out like this.

What if their average client for this product was like choker and hit each machine for 7.5mbps or more? They would have much less then $200 gross profit per deal... and they still have to pay all the other shit.

I cant see how they could cover costs until they hit about 100 of these deals... and even at that, where is the net profit for the company?

Well all those boxes are unmanaged(ask toker to be sure)as far as I know.

Ahh, so it is like a rackshack deal? I see.

even if they are making $250 per deal gross profit... they gotta be losing money for the firsst few months - a server isnt free...

even tho the server listed there is mostly outdated hardware. (not saying outdated hardware wont work, just saying it's outdated, thus cheaper)

great thread.

also, that is a hell of a deal for S&D space .. power included and all.

Datahosters sucks

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/sh...pagenumbe r=1

Well one problem doesn't mean a whole host is crap :-) I can tell you datahosters is a good company, and no way they steal your money...

Andre

PixIndex - At less than $1/gig I run with a high margin! Now that my fixed facility, employee and bandwidth expenses are covered, it's all gravy. I've got enough capacity in bandwidth to triple sales and enough physical space and power in the facility to quadruple sales.

Phil - I've got a 200mbit multimode fiber handoff. My billing isn't 95th percentile, it's fixed for that amount of pipe. For the sake of argument about Verio, that was just two months ago that I could have gotten a gigE in Detroit for 35k. Things are different here, their capacity here is undersold... versus other cities where their prices are likely double.

Sleazy - Want to save some money? I'll throw up a server for free for you and you can test me out for a month or two. I'm one of those people that's cheaper than $1 per gig in quantity.

L0stmind - As far as I'm concerned, anyone selling a 10mbit handoff for $450 is on CRACK. I sell 10mbit fully managed with a server for $1500/month. Anyone that is selling for $450 is either overselling their network or counting on the fact that their customers won't use all their bandwidth.. or cutting some other corners.

Cheers,

Brad

haha, someone shot Brad out of a cannon.
:thumbsup

:1orglaugh

happy thanksgiving