Is it tough times for cams right now?
 

I left the livecam business three years ago, but heard many studious that used to make a bank are almost out of business beeing paid in dollars / in many times trying to desperately switch to other providers.

Is that really harder to keep quality livecam hosts with the increase of competition and collapse of dollar?

Cams have been insane for us and continue to boom. We have a non-nude niche that has lead to relationships with maxim, fhm, zoo, and several other major magazines. We also have things in the works with MTV, HBO, etc.

Cams for us seems to have moved into a realm beyond cams, which I think is cool to see. But as for the overall cam market, i can see how its becoming saturated ... most programs look the same and don't really stand out. I think any cam program can be successful if you can find a way to seperate yourself from the rest of the pack.

Yeah, I was meaning this more like from the broadcaster perspective, for example we used to do the most money with Directsex - which was definitely a less sex and more of a personality driven thing.

It was not that easy to make money with the performance / more USD per min cams - and that was three years ago.. I suppose today with sites having 7 000 active hosts and less money for the models because of the dollar, kind of tougher to get your piece of the pie.

Technologically - 2much and their Livecamnetwork.com pretty much impressed me lately, I am keeping an eye on them for a while and their technology seems to be a killing..

imo, competitive market should make the broadcasters even better.
in some cases one broadcaster work with few live cams sites.
but that's just my thought.

Yes, it is indeed usually like that, in my experience you had up to four different cam sites beeing broadcasted for from one broadcasting studio - although there is usually a clause that a model that is on their site shouldn't broadcast for other sites - in fact everyone is always looking for cam sites that can give you better results.. and you have no other way than to try out the competition of your current cam partners to check that.

We've still got over 500 models online almost 24/7. We do see quite a few models who work on other camsites at the same time, but judging by their payments increasing, I don't see any kind of slowdown from a performer's perspective..

Where you have the most broadcasters from?

I think Abbie missed the point. She works for the only cam company where most girls get paid in dollars. LOL

yupe, most cam sites i know require exclusivity from their performers.
rightfully so, if they are giving the performers tons of traffic and make them money, i guess they can do that. :thumbsup

But so many are on multiple sites anyway. Only a couple of chat sites I know of pretty much have all their girls working exclusive.


And there is a BIG difference between NN cam sites and "sex chat" ones ... They got a bump in exposure from those brilliant YouTube clips that made the forum rounds, and of course mainstream didn't mind featuring them, again, because it's NN.

I've been talking with a lot of studios and models lately specifically asking them how the biz is now. I'm also asking them specifically about sites like they and the different problems they have with them. I've learned a lot so far and we are nowhere close to being done with our research...

Yes, without question studios and models are having a much tougher time making money now. The dollar is down 50% in like 5 years to the Euro and this has put many studios out of business. The problem is bigger than that though.

Part of the problem is that it seems that it is very difficult to make good money working exclusively on one site so studios have their models work on as many sites as their computers can handle at the same time using software like splitcam or manycam. The problem with this is that the members don't get as good of an experience because the models have so many site windows open that it is hard for them to work so most just sit and wait for a member to enter private and don't put much effort in free chat and for the sites that allow guests to chat the models spend now effort whatsoever in converting them. In fact I think that this treatment will do the exact opposite and cause guests not to join the site from what I have seen myself. I am not criticizing the models here so much. The reality of the business now is that 90% of the models who work on cam need to work on at least 4 to make enough money and many work on more than 10 names at the same time often on more than one site at the same time. Some will even have more than one computer with video feeds going.

I have heard the opposite about Webcams specifically from many many studios and models that I have spoken with about this. From many sources I have heard that models on the first page earn good, but if they are on pages 2 to the end they earn terrible. Sometime it will be a few hours before they even see one member. So while you may have 500 models on any time only the handful at the top of the site earn enough to work on one site exclusively.

Also I have read on forums for studios and models that there are many broadcasters boycotting your site entirely because of how badly you treat models there. For example they say they choose to have you filter visitors in their home countries, but this is not done in reality. A guest can enter any models room in countries the model has told you to filter and you say you are filtering for them. Even more infuriating for them is that you give away free porno video clips of their private chats and do not filter them as you promise when they register. I have read many stories on forums about this problem and it seems many naive models have had devastating personal problems from this. I have spoken to the manager and owner of one studio in Russia that had a model commit suicide when her fiance and his family found several videos of her publicly on your site. I've sent some people that work for me to this town to dig deeper into the story. I may have some videotaped interviews soon.

Here is where the free model videos are....
http://www.webcams.com/index.php?page=movie_galleries

I don't understand the logic behind giving visitors thousands of free videos of your models.

I have found that to be completely untrue as well. Most do not and if they did require exclusivity it would put them out of business from what I hear.

More specifics about sites...

Spread4u had a terrible java based chat system that caused many problems for models. Their new flash system has connection problems I hear. Also their rules are very strange I have been told. I'm also told their support staff is probably from India or something because they sometimes understand English worse than the models on the site. My research indicates that this site more trouble than it is worth. Too many stupid rules, too much buggy software and very little traffic now. This site doesn't seem very profitable for any performers.

LiveJasmine made their payout percentage smaller and now are trying to push users to use a chat application that requires downloading and does not work with splitcam so it prevents models from being on more than one site. Models that use the flash software on the site get slower video and put in a bad place on the site. Most models that use the software that must be downloaded have faster video, but do not earn near enough money. These changes I hear is why Webcams has so many models now. They left LiveJasmine. Also models hate how many guests there are on the site.

ImLive just cut the percentage they pay models again and are very strict about rules. This seems to be a site that some models can earn OK on but most do not. Also ImLive has terrible chat software I am told. It is some combination of Flash and JavaScript and it constantly crashes their browser and causes problems with other sites. Studios are limited to 10 models at first too. If they email support they may get permission to add more models, but most don't even bother with this and register all their models as individual models and not under a studio account. Another reason for this is that ImLive has blocked entire studios for 1 model breaking rules in the past. Registering each model independently gives the studios protection from a stupid model getting their studio blocked.

iFriends is dead from what I hear from almost all models. There was a good program made in Russia that let models use many accounts at the same time. I am told that iFriends has made some big updates to their system that broke the software and this has put many studios out of business who used them exclusively on 10 accounts simultaneously. The programmers that made this program had a falling out with the Russian company that distributed and sold the software to studios and will not update it. Also, I heard there was some problem with the Russian owned US company that cashed the checks for hundreds of studios and models in Eastern Europe.

Naked.com I don't know much about yet. Simply that some models are very angry that they have not been paid money that was promised to them. Also their support is terrible I have heard from many people. For some time they didn't even have stats for models I read.

The information above is culled from our notes. I have a team of people doing research into this in 4 countries and everything will be compiled into a report. We will be digging deep into every site in the business. I may make the report public when it's finished. Certainly parts will be... :2 cents:

Very interesting post and finally a bit of contraversy, I wish I could add our experience to the list, but as far as it is already three years ago I doubt it would be relevant..

It would be very interesting to hear how things were for you 3 years ago.

Damn Ethersync, that's one killer post. I'm eagerly awaiting responses from some of the companies you've mentioned :winkwink:

Digi Group is interested in purchasing your cams code. Contact me for more info.

Nice post Ethersync... Pretty much confirms what I've been saying about ImLive and iFriends for some time now based on just observining the sites (while promoting them) and talking to some models.

IMO it's the studio's themselves as well as having far too many foreign girls that's truly killing cam sites. Cams are supposed to be about making a personal connection with the girls and that part of it is being lost which means fewer and fewers guys will stick around.

As Ethersync pointed out, talking directly with studios and models is the way to get the real inside info on what's going on. I have my own contacts in this area and hear many of the same things he shared (and some things I was totally unaware of).

As an affiliate I can say that several sites have clearly fallen off in terms of sales (with relatively stable traffic and promotion methods), while others seem to be doing better than ever. That leads me to believe a long overdue convergence is occurring in the webcam marketplace.

There were several big players and clearly that number is dwindling: The ones that have maintained their model and customer base as well as kept up with the increasing demands (technology, features) are doing well. Those that have been using the same chat software and business model for the past 5 years (among other mistakes) are falling behind.

It will be interesting to see what the rest of '08 and '09 brings ... Personally, I'd place my bets on, oh, about 5 sites/programs that I would expect will be as strong as now or stronger, while a few I expect may fade or die off entirely. In the former category, a site like Imlive is constantly adding new features and trying to build a real communication portal with their customers (any issues with studios/performers or software, I have not confirmed so I won't touch that). On the opposite side, yes, iFriends has fallen behind BADLY. For whatever reason they've done just about nothing to improve their site(s) or program while the competitors have raked their customer base.

And yes, I'd love to see some more programs weigh in on any of this
:pimp

Cams code? Huh? :)

Most studios are themselves foreign so it's expected most of their models are foreign :) I have gotten stories of a number of marriages between members in the West and models in the East so I think the personal connection is still there sometimes, but I think you do have a valid point.

We are coming across a lot of "flop house" cam studios. Asian and Central America studios have a lot of models living in small rooms with a webcam and a computer. The feed quality is usually awful and the models are kind of trashy... to be kind :) We are working on getting more information about how they operate, but it seems they get not more than a few dollars a day and room and board. Most of these models keep their prices as low as the sites allow.

There are many well run studios in Russia, Romania and Czech Republic.

Every studio we have talked with has said they feel that sites do not treat them well. Well run studios that would be loyal and valuable partners for any site feel like they are getting the shaft constantly. They feel their concerns are never addressed by sites. Part of the problem may be the differences in languages, but don't these big sites earn enough to hire a couple support people that can speak Russian, Spanish, etc?

It seems that most cam sites are started by people with a background in affiliate marketing so they work hard to keep their affiliates happy, but don't even know how to begin to relate to their models and studios.

A few more bits of information that came in...

1. Multiple studios have reported to us that they only keep models on ImLive because of how quickly models get paid. Payments go out 1 day after the period ends we are told and studios want the money now rather than wait a week or more for payments even if they would get more money. They also love that ImLive payments arrive like clockwork. I guess the lesson to be learned for startup cam sites is to pay models quickly and always exactly on time :) ImLive is charging European members in Euros now [1 Euro = 1 credit. 1 Dollar = 1 credit.], but still paying models in Dollars. Studios are pissed about this because ImLive is taking more profit even after just cutting models percentage again. Are affilliates with revshare deals getting cheated too?

2. Webcams also has a good reputation for payments. They pay weekly and the delay is 5 or 6 days. Payments are not as reliable as ImLive according to our data, but most are satisfied with this.

3. European sites that bill and payout webmaster and models in Euros have a big opportunity to take a large chunk of market share now with the depressed dollar, but our early data indicates they are not as adept as their US competition in a number of areas. Their sites are often more difficult to navigate and make what should be simple tasks very complex. Also, most of them pay monthly and often with long delays. One site we heard about pays out every 2 months with long delay. They all seem to pay affiliates revshare deals only. We have yet to see any that offer PPS. We have found a couple that are trying to charge affiliates money for white label sites. One in particular wants several thousand dollars. Many US based sites offer this now for free. Also European sites often charge very little for each minute a member is in private so while a model will spend more time in private she earns considerably less for her time. A large site we are monitoring very closely now charges much higher rates to members and gets a good amount of traffic. I'm not going to get into the details here until we have more data :) One plus about European sites is I hear many do not care about model releases and their ID requirements are generally very lax compared to US sites.

4. A lot of US cam sites who outsource their programming and design end up getting their sites made by the same people that made their competitors sites :)

5. A large U.K based multi-national telecom company tried to get into adult videochat and got their ass handed to them :)

6. Video chat in Ukraine is very illegal. It's very dangerous to run a studio from this country.

I have a lot more data coming in, but it's not all organized and translated yet. It's amazing how much information comes from just a little poking around....... :2 cents:

for what I've seen, cams are now more "in" than ever before

Our system ranks models based on how much they earn per hour. We don't just pick and choose who gets on the first page, models who earn more get displayed higher, simple economics, I'm afraid. All I know is we still have lots of models :)

We don't just videotape every live show, all those clips in our galleries are from the models actually clicking to record a video during a live show for promotional use. Any time a model asks us to remove any of their media, we comply to their wishes. Also, we DO filter from the countries that each model requests by our member's registered billing address. We plan on changing that to filter by IP address in the near future but that's going to take quite a bit of coding.

So...now knowing all this inside info.... Is Cams.com the best all around?

Cams has been great for me so far this year. The only problem is that the dollar sucks right now. But even so cams is still my number 2 best seller overall and the best converting.. And Cams.com is my number one program of all my forign programs. They've made me a fraking fortune:)

Yeah, I was sent information about how you rank models. Some combination of a running hourly average and members rating their profiles. I hear there is a penalty for models who get long privates. I have heard that models can be on the first page and get a very long private and then get dumped to a back page when they come out of private. I assume this is a problem with the algorithm you use to track how much a model makes each hour. It seems if the algorithm checks the models and the model has not closed a transaction because she is in private a long time then it's like she has earned nothing. This is just a guess though because I don't have enough data yet. I have heard that many short privates will get a model up to the top faster than long ones will. This means that models who give fast shows for members and do not get too personal are rewarded for this with better placing on the site, but models who are more personal and try to make connections with members may be penalized albeit unintentionally.

If the models is told that the countries she is choosing to block are blocked and people there can't see her on cam then why not make a video to promote herself? I don't think it's clear to the models the videos will be given away for free to all visitors and there is no filtering of visitors in the countries they chose to filter.

Also I heard specifically that many models have sent you requests to remove videos and they are ignored. The owner of the studio in Russia that had the model who killed herself told us that when they asked you to take off the videos of her the reply they got from your company was that the videos are your property and you can do what you want with them and you won't take them off. I haven't seen the exact text of the response yet. I will ask for more details.

Filtering by credit card doesn't help when visitors in the home countries of many of the models probably don't even have credit cards. Your join page for models is very misleading about this also. The text from you join page is below...........

"Region Blocking Options -- We allow our performers to block certain regions of the world for privacy's sake. This way you don't chance having your next door neighbor see you on cam!"

"don't have to chance having your next door neighbor see you on cam!" gives these models and studios an illusion of privacy that is completely inaccurate. I think that is where your problems are coming from :2 cents:

Well Private CamZ Rocks, they are 100% honest and bring in the peeps. Dan and Co are great.

Unfortunately, this is a problem with a few sites where essentially, once you sign up to be a performer your photos, videos, etc. can show up anywhere. For many performers there is a shock when they do a search on Google for their screen name and see their pics on affiliate sites ... and sometimes many of them.

The blocking also has limitations esp. considering so many people use proxies in typically banned countries like Romania and Russia. When I have been in Eastern Europe I used a very basic proxy and only one site did a reverse lookup, thereby blocking me. Only one. The rest I assume just do a simple IP-country lookup which a ten-year old can get around.

As for the use of promo materials, at least one site has videos posted of performs who have long since left the industry. These are still being used as promos by affiliates and obviously are visible to anyone. So even after leaving the business, a performer still runs the risk of having family, friends, co-workers, etc. find out.

One thing that sites *should* do, as well as studios, is carefully explain to performers this reality: That although the site will try to respect their privacy and block undesired customers from seeing them, that they still may (and if they work long enough, will) be visible to anyone. And if the model accepts that risk, fine. But clearly most models are understandably naive and assume they have nothing to worry about.

... Still hope other programs chime in on this thread, it's a very open and no-holds-barred discussion that is rarely seen on boards.
:thumbsup

Oh and I did not name any specific sites above because I feel that most of these issues are industry-specific versus site-specific... and I'm being a coward, for now ;)

Ethersync is scary with the knowledge!

Why are you investigating the cam industry and filing reports and such? What is your role in the cam business or are you a reporter, cop or something?

there are forums where cam models and studios hang out? i'd like to check out these forums.

about the cam model who you say committed suicide - can't blame that on the cam site, girls in any country who do adult work are adults and make their choice to do the work.
if Webcams.com recruits girls leading them on that their Geo filtering is 100% effective than that is sleazy but the studio she works for absolutely knows that even geo IP filtering isn't even close to being 100% effective - cam girls, porn girls, solo site models - all going to be found out by somebody they know wherever they live.

I've been promoting cams for years, but most of my business is mainstream stuff and some investing in stocks and commodities. It seems to me that none of the players in the cam business get it right. I want to learn as much about it as I can because there may be a business opportunity here and even if there doesn't end up being one it still is interesting :)

My wife has been going on with private camz and its been good.

I agree and I didn't say it was Webcams fault directly. I'm just sharing what I was told about the situation.

We are finding these studios and models have little understanding about technical things like geo filtering. To them if a site says they are blocked then they are blocked and that's it. I think more proper phrasing would be that while the site will do it's best to protect the privacy of their models and filter specified countries that they cannot guarantee it will work 100% of the time. Then they should do what they say. It seems to me the sites don't really give a fuck though and this causes them to lose good models that would otherwise work. It also makes some of the models that continue working to feel like they are being fucked by the site so they have a chip on their shoulder. When you hear affiliates talk about cam sites they often talk about how great the site they are promoting is and how helpful the staff is... but I have rarely found models or studios talk about how great sites are to them... most seem to feel the sites don't care about them at all. This problem affects affiliates like us who use revshare programs because sites with better models retain members and get members to spend more money.

Yahoo is in on the cam game....
Will Yahoo get it right this time?

http://live.yahoo.com

I am figuring out how to monetize this new avenue.

Yes I find this is true. I'm not sure what the solution is. Sites need a way to promote their sites, but geo filtering all photos and videos that affiliates use is impossible unless everything is hosted by sites. Anyone have ideas?

I agree.

Come on... name names :1orglaugh

I think you're right, I clicked on that to check it out and first thing I find is someone broadcasting Grand Theft Auto 4 live (doesnt come out til Tuesday) - this looks pretty dope

i think the software jasmin put into place about a year ago as you mention was a great thing for the site, and the models that use it. It is really fast, and encourages users to come back and spend more money on those cams.

Someone mentioned Directsex in this post a bit earlier. 3 years ago when he was putting girls on there it was the top site, mainly because it had the best video of any chat site online. The new jasmin software is just as good.

It does give girls that use it the advantage of being on front page, and prevents them from using split cam. But if you know what you are doing you can get around that.

Just run your camera into a TV tuner for the new software, and then run the USB connection into you computer and use that to split out to cams.com, needlive, or one of the others.

As for hating the # of users on the site, they did just change it so that free chat users cannot change names to fake member names, so that at least filters out a lot of guys pretending to be actual members... for what thats worth

but what the main point is i think is the dollar, and yes, the dollar thing sucks, ecspecially if customers are buying 159.99 in euros and you get your % as a % of 159.99 in dollars.

i promote cam sites, and i have a few working on cam sites... and regardless of the saturation the money has not really changed any of the past couple years :pimp

And which FIVE would these be? You've got a lot to choose from in your sig. I tried contacting via ICQ to find out, but I didn't hear back from you. It would be nice if your list was organized from Best To Worst.

Both you and Ethersync should now tell us who the best cam sponsors are. Ethersync?

Cops wouldn't say what they know.

Reporters on the other hand...

That type of system is always a self fulfilling prophesy... i.e the ones that earn more money get listed at the top.. the top girls get picked more by the surfers.. and so the ones at the top earn more money.. Ratings systems are also piss poor as they get abused by the models/studios.. iFriends system is/was particularly bad at that and I heard many models complain about it. The solo girls caming out of their homes got pushed out by the studios.. But it was those solo girls that were actually far better models and made me more money.

If I was writing the code for something like that, I'd probably try something different like break the models up into 3-4 tiers and then rotate the girls every minute thru the spots grouped in sets of 3-4. I'd try ranking the tiers by a combination of earnings per minute and per customer or something inclusive like that.

One of the other things that I find on all the cam sites that is detrimental to everyone IMO is models with incorrect data and piss poor searching/categories. For example, streamate.. I'd push that site a lot more if I could focus the traffic... Everyone has a "type" that they want to watch and interact with. Just try finding caucasian teens to chat with on streamate.. You go into the teen category and you find a ton of asian girls.. You can't filter them out.. and once you start looking into the girls you find many non-teens... That type of system doesn't do anyone any good and reduces the potential revenue.. It's not just streamate though. Out of all of them, I think ImLive is about the best for finding the type of girl you want but even their system could be improved upon.

Hey tempest,

That definitely is a problem, but hit up Liz (ICQ 81619446 or [email protected]) to see what we can do for you.

I'm not going to start making recommendations or endorsements any time soon though I may share some very... interesting... information on this forum that I have received about specific programs if I get the nod from my attorney...

The report we are working on is an internal report and will certainly never be published. I am not a reporter. A reporter would not have the budget I do for this.

Yes, we have a data set showing this to be true. Models on the top 2 rows of the first page on Webcams gross approximately $121.50 per hour. From there is falls off greatly. Models on last 2 pages often go more than 2 hours without getting any members at all in their rooms.

I am told that Webcams old system for sorting models was based entirely on members rating the models profile. Whoever had the highest overall rating and most total ratings were at the top. Many models would give little nude shows to members in free chat to get them to give them a 10 rating. Members would also threaten the models and say if they did not give them a little free show they would give them a 1 rating.

Webcams new system is much better than their old one, but still has problems.

That is not a bad idea. One thing I Webcams could add now that would improve things I think is that if a model is on the first page and in private chat she should be dropped down to page 2 or 3 so other models who are not making money can get a piece of the action.

All sites we have looked at have terrible search capabilities. Many do not even offer any kind of search feature at all. Most just dump model thumbnails on a page. It's really stupid.

I don't think sites are entirely to blame though about models in the wrong categories this..... Studios we talked with all told us that model profiles are not important to them at all and do not matter. They think members do not read them and they say most sites do not care about this. I think a lot of models are miscategorized because of the studios and models. One large studio we spoke with told us they did put a lot of work into making good profiles until they found that most sites display search results based just on screen names and the text in the profile matters not.