God Lets Girl Die in Wisconsin
 

http://www.foxnews.com/images/355920...8_madeline.jpg
Madeline Kara Neumann is shown working on chalk art last summer during downtown Wausau's Chalk Fest.


Weston, Wisconsin: 11 year old Madeline Neumann died after her parents refused to take her to a doctor for her progressing illness; instead, they turned toward prayer as the solution. An autopsy determined the girl died from a treatable form of diabetes.

The girl's parents attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith." They believed "it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray." The mother still believes the girl can be resurrected.

The girl has three siblings still living in the home. So far, police find no reason to remove them. The girl's death remains under investigation and findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges.

Source: www.foxnews.com

An old joke refers to this blind faith problem. A town has been having rain for days and the river on the outskirts of town has begun overflowing its banks. The mayor issues an evacuation order, but the overly religious family refuses to leave saying, "God will protect us". The National Guard comes by in amphibious trucks to help the family leave once travelling by car is impossible. Again they refused saying, "God will protect us" The flood waters rise and the family is forced to seek high ground on the roof of their home. A volunteer rescue worker comes by in a small boat offering rescue. The family again refuses saying "God will protect us" As the flood waters rise and the father is holding his children above the water which nearly covers him a helicopter comes and offers to save them. They again refuse saying "God will protect us" Of course the family drowns and meets their maker. Obviously upset that god didn't protect them the Father demands to know why to which god replies "I had the mayor issue an evac order. I had the National Guard come by and offer rescue. I had a volunteer rescue worker offer help from a boat. I had a helicopter offer to pluck you from the water. How much help do you need?"

I think this was posted yesterday.

Fucking idiots though. Send them to jail !!

thx for the heads up.
i wont post in this thread anymore.


cheers :thumbsup

Sounds like the parents let her die, not God.

good ol christian zealots at their finest...hang em high.

...and last year at the Christian "life fest" in Wisconsin a girl died on the "Air Glory" ride.

Different circumstances yes, but "God's will" none the less (in these peoples' eyes).

The point is, I live with whackos.

She looks about 30 in that pic

you can't defend christianity or islam and not argue that it was the will of god that she died. if anything, it could be argued that her parents were being far less hypocritical than others of their faith.

Yeah... god helps those who help themselves

don't get too excited

thats so scary its like an addiction.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:2 cents:

there are some fucked up people in this world :-/

He moves in mysterious ways

Ever hear the story of the man caught in a flood?

There was a certain pious man who lived by the river. The river began to flood so he prayed to God to save him.

The water level rose and he went upstairs to avoid the water. A boat passed and offered to rescue him. The man refused saying he had prayed to God and he had perfect faith that God would answer his prayer.

The water level rose and the man, still full of faith, clung to the chimney pot on the roof of his house. A helicopter flew down and offered to take him off. He refused. He had his faith in God.

The water arose above his head and he drowned.

When he got to Heaven the pearly gates were shut.

'Why are the gates shut?' he asked, 'I have been a pious man all my life.'

God said they were shut because the man had rejected him.

The man denied it. How had he rejected God. God said, 'I sent you a boat, and you rejected my help. I sent you a helicopter and you rejected my help.'


Maybe in this case the readily available cure = the boat, the doctors = helicopter.

Food for thought.

People are not taught in the bible that God works in such ways. They are taught about miracles, water turning to wine, dead raising from the grave, blind learning to see again, lepers being cured and about the power of prayer to solve lifes problems.

furthermore, they are taught that God decides who lives and dies, about everything being "the will of God" and so on.

It's not unreasonable for someone who is listening to this their entire life to expect God to cure her diabetes. The traditional view of God and healing doesn't involve insulin shots or antibiotics or long hospital stays.

Once you cross that barrier of accepting that "God works in mysterious ways" and that anything and everything can be explained as "Gods work"... then you have to start questioning the negatives and babies dying in a plane crash and then to questioning your very own beliefs and whether or not God exists.

The bible depicts God working in a very direct and personal way and responding to prayer and performing miracles... even when curing disease or saving "believers" from plagues or whatever.

Islam was much more clever btw to encourage the injection of that little caveat into every sentence that people say practically ... "allah willing..." "if allah wills it" ... "if its the will of allah"..

why would it be unreasonable for a person after having that beat into their brain their entire life think it that cause and cure are both the "will of Allah"

Pleasurepays, you have some very misguided and too-literal views of what you think "people are taught in the bible" dude. Maybe you ought to head over to a christian forum for answers, or perhaps a church. To me, much of the bible is symbolic in nature, written not to amaze you with some grand magic act but to illustrate solid precepts for living one's life with a modicum of honor and integrity. It is a guide, not a promise of cures if you pray hard enough.

All I'm saying is that people are all too quick to blame it on God, or place any blame on anything for that matter, other than themselves (where it all too often belongs).

Christians are as fallible as anyone else. Some of them have misguided faith, as is obvious in this case. Anyone who sees things clearly (in their faith) realizes that while there are miracles being worked all over the planet they aren't so obvious as "abbracadabra" and their kid is magically cured through prayer. If that were the case there would be no athiests, all you'd need do is pray and *poof*, the genie grants your wish.

Conversely, if all people of faith were as misguided as this couple seems to be then christians all over the world would contantly be dying because of their faith and neglecting treatment. That isn't the case though is it? Most Christians believe but part of that faith is in knowing that the very cures, although man-made, were waiting to be discovered but were possible because of God.

I've been in a church or two in my life, and although I don't claim to believe as the masses do or agree with the policies of organized religion, I have gathered some knowledge on their beliefs.

Actually, yes they are. Plenty of examples of it marbled throughout it. It's the very essence of what the phrase "The lord works in mysterious ways" was intended to mean.

But I'm not going to go looking for examples for you. For one this isn't the forum to hold a sermon, and for another... I know they're there but I just don't want to. :D

Seriously, pose this question on a christian forum and you'll get all kinds of examples.

well.... i did go to a private christian school... and was raised around this sort of insanity. its not "the bible" generally as much as it is the church and what they are taught or how a person chooses to interpret the "messages" and which ones they choose to ignore and which they choose to live by.

i am not defending what she did. its absurd and its murder.

who decides which messages are just parables or symbolic and which are records of actual events that actually occurred? did jesus wake up and walk up to heaven? you can't say no to that because that is the very foundation of christianity... but did he turn water to wine? no? really? is that somehow less silly and "just a symbolic message"?

who decides where to draw those very subjective lines?

people do. are those lines different today than they were 1000 years ago? of course. was there somehow less symbolism 400 years ago? its all very subjective and open to interpretation...

i am simply saying that its not all that unreasonable to see someone thinking "God will heal her"..

maybe you need to go to church and watch 1000 people pray to make someones cancer go away? thats no less retarded.

God didn't let her die . . . he killed her.


Why???? He has a plan.

do you realize you are quoting a british author and not the bible? i can send you a bible.

YES!!! Pray for cancer to go away!!! HA HA HA HAAAAA HAA ha ha ahaahaa!!


If God didn't want you to get cancer, he wouldn't have GIVEN IT TO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!


If you have cancer . . . GOD wanted it that way. Now die like God wants all you cancer fuckers!

Agreed, so far so good. :thumbsup

That's what pastors, preachers and ministers are for I suppose. Of course no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to believe what they telll you, but some of them are quite good at advising others on such matters. (and some are God-awful)

Very much so.

It's also not unreasonable for others to point out that their faith is misdirected.

Actually I don't see where it hurts for them to pray. Is it retarded or are they exploring all options? I've known plenty of people with life-threatening cancer including several members of my own family, and have some understanding in me about why they would choose to pray for help.

I stand by my initial statement in this thread. I think the title is wrong and it's the parent's who "let the girl die in Wisconsin". Jehovah witnesses do the same thing, they are notorious for refusing certain treatments, such as blood transfusions, and many of them do die because of it. THAT to me is retarded.

I dont understand how they didnt take the other childen.

fuck christians are stupid...

ok... i know i am very cynical, but i was being serious.

just like the congregation that is praying for someone to get better... they are doing so because they believe God will hear their prayers and heal the person. thats the very point of it. thats what prayer is. thats why people pray.

the idea and basic appeal of all of this is that you now have some indirect control... "you do XYZ and things should work out just find because God loves you"

the difference is that reasonable, rational people ALSO realize that its not going to be the deciding factor.

my point was this

1) she murdered her kid. sucks.

2) its also not that big of a stretch in reasoning for her to think God will heal her based on the teachings of christ and christianity.

i wasn't trying to defend it.. i was more pointing out that its a very scary consequence of religion and it presents some interesting arguments "there is no god", "well God will help, but only if you do xyz", "your faith just wasn't strong enough or God would have cured her diabetes" etc etc. i think is quite logical for her to believe god will take care of her child and heal her because they are good and honest christians, living according to the word of God. its "logical" but religion has been forced to also infuse a little reality into the situation to account for the fact that bad stuff happens to bad people and tweak the message a little to say that "God helps those who help themselves" to blur the God line a little more.

the problem with religion is that religion is often the device that people use to make sense of the world around them. it provides a lot of very simplistic, cut and dry answers to overwhelmingly complex questions. I dont think we can hold people morally accountable for how they interpret that message. its huge, its complex, its confusing, its often contradictory, it doesn't jive with real life or science, but at the same people are being unfairly told that their eternal salvation depends on it

totally reasonable to expect a hic-up here and there :)

i was sent to a private christian school when i was young. it was a harsh lesson in denial and absurd human behavior...

imagine listening to a sermon before school starts and the guy saying he got out of the shower, bent over and the voice of God told him to stand up and then gave him instructions (this guy really said that)

picture everyone just staring at him in awe... thinking quietly "god spoke to this guy"

then imagine a second grader slowing and innocently raising his hand and innocently asking "how do you know it was god"

everyone is totally disgusted and upset

he scrambles to answer and expresses a little dissapointment that i would even ask such a thing.

i had just watched The Amityville Horror (1979) and asked "well, how do you know it wasn't satan... or how do you know your not just crazy like guy in The Amityville Horror who killed his family"

i was quickly escorted out and got my ass beat with no explanation given. but i was serious. really serious. in fact, i was a little scared that some guy was proudly telling us he was hearing voices... i was thinking about crazy people and that crazy people always hear voices.

Grown man, naked, shower, wet . . . . . telling young kids about his naked, shower, wet meeting with GOD sounds about right. Did he ever TOUCH you?


At least you NOW realize that all, "Christians" are genuine whack jobs!


God will kick your ass for doubting him you dummy!!!! Now get naked and wet and wait for god's instructions!!!

Look dimwit, if GOD didn't want you to die of cancer, he wouldn't give it to you (in the first place). How dumb are you?


Tell those "plenty of people" that GOD has chosen them to die of cancer. That should ease their worries about an early death.

Die cancer fuckers!

This whole idea of "God will take care of me" really struck a nerve with me. I too was raised in a very strict Christian home, attending a very uptight Baptist school through 8th grade, having to go to church every Sunday, Bible Study every Wednesday, Bible camp every summer, blah blah blah. I have since learned to think for myself and not take everything I was taught in church and school as fact simply because "the Bible says so" (as most of my family believes).

The part that really irks me about all of this is that my mother is exactly the way that joke describes. In other areas of her life, she seems normal and practical. However, she is one of those who firmly believes that "God will provide" even if she does nothing to help herself. She and my stepdad are very poor, barely scraping by every month. But when she is offered a job she turns it down, saying "God will provide". So instead she allows people from her church to pay their bills when they can't afford them, give them used vehicles when theirs break down, etc. This is her idea of God providing.

I love my mother dearly, but sometimes I just want to smack her on the forehead and tell her "God IS providing you by putting that great job opportunity right in front of your face! Get off your lazy ass and help yourself for once!" She, and most of her/my family, so firmly believe that if it's God's will, he'll provide the way... to the extent that they seem to have forgotten that God helps those who help themselves, and may not hand them everything they need, but will hand them opportunities that will allow them to work and earn what they need.

This is a very sensitive subject for me. It's all about brainwashing.

saw this on nancy grace she was extra pissed about it.
charge em with negligence causing death

Of course your first statement is correct.. but only because there is no such thing as god and it makes the thread title no different from "An invisible pink unicorn let this child die".. of course the thread starter was being facetious...

I told you, Christians are just as fallible as anyone else, and in some cases much moreso. I've run across plenty of hypocrisy and misguided faith in my 45 years, much of it inside the walls of churches (mostly when I was a kid). It turned me off of organized religion completely, but did not sway me from keeping my mind open where one's personal faith is concerned (both my own and that of others).

Brilliant post. It really does sound like your mother needs a smack in the forehead.

Your stepdad too for that matter.

I agree...

Yeah i think they should go to jail

I was also raised christian(roman catholic to be exact, italian family--I am now a proud athiest) but I have a major issue with what you said...and I mean no disrespect what-so-ever...but you say "god helps those who help themselves" truly bothers me. Having the notion that there is a man in the clouds who is actively helping you would imply that "he" is actively involved in our lives(or supposedly the lives of the people that believe in him.) So if your god is involved in the lives of the faithful and giving them help.. that could only mean that he/she/it is ignoring helpless christian children who are in true desperate situations. Although being poor is not fun, around the world, or even in your neighborhood there are tons of people that are in a far worse conditions and with no options...there are kids dying of starvation in africa, there are kids right here being severely abused, there are millions of people with no options like your mother. So if your all loving/all powerful god is actually giving your mother these great options for work which she seems to be ignoring...what does that say about his/hers/its priorities?

No disrespect taken. I can't answer your questions though, since I have asked those very same questions myself many a time. The point I was trying to make in my post was not so much that I believe there is a God sitting up there deciding who to help and who not to help. I was more saying that I get so tired of the people who believe that everything will be handed to them on a silver platter simply because they have faith.

I don't even know what I believe about religion anymore. The only thing I do know is that I can't take everything I was taught as fact. Growing up I was taught not to question the Bible and the things I was told in church and school. As I have gotten older though, I question everything. The tough part is that I haven't found the answers.

I do believe that faith in religion is a good thing though... whether I believe in that religion or not. I think it gives people something to believe in, something to look forward to, and helps keep many people on this earth in line because of their fear of retribution.