EPOCH Clarification and Policies on New VISA Regs
 

EPOCH wants to quote VISA OP Regs and Principles in order to clarify previous posts regarding new VISA Regs.

Most of these issues specifically address erroneous information provided by others on previous threads.

Cross Border Acquiring Issues

4.2.D.5 Jurisdiction

4.2.D.5.a - An acquirer must ensure that its IPSP does not contract with a prospective Sponsored Merchant outside the Acquirers
jurisdiction, as specified in

- Section 2.10 Visa International By-Laws and Regional Board Delegations and
- Section 4.2.B.1b VISA USA Inc. Operating Regulations

4.2.D.5.b - An Internet Payment Service Provider may have contracts with multiple Acquirers, but may only submit Transactions to an Acquirer
from Sponsored Merchants within that Acquirer's jurisdiction.

How does Globill and any other IPSP outside of the USA intend on circumventing the above OP Regs? How as a US based webmaster do
you honestly believe that you can process through an IPSP outside of the USA? The simple answer is you can't. If you do you will
get caught and terminated as a VISA merchant.

Also, You can only register a URL with an IPSP(s) in one region, you cannot submit transactions for that URL through
a US Based IPSP and also through a non-US based IPSP, when you are caught you will be terminated from the VISA system as well.

What this means is, if you desire to have a backup processor then the backup processor must also be located in the same region.
That means in the USA, (IBill, CCBill, EPOCH/Paycom, WSB) - these are the only registered IPSP's that we are currently aware of
in the USA (however there may be others that we are not aware of at this point)

Issues regarding Reporting and Registration for VISA International Sponsored Merchants

Operating Principles for VISA International

Operating Principle 1.6.

The International Operating Principles for IPSP's contain language, which states
that the IPSP must provide comprehensive lists (including names of principles, country
of domicile, etc.) of all its Sponsored Merchants and transaction level detail reports
to its Acquirer and upon request to VISA. Acquirers and IPSP's must establish procedures
to ensure Terminated Merchants are not permitted to be Sponsored Merchants.

**So if you are outside of the USA you will still have to answer to VISA in terms
of reporting and registration. Whether you call it being registered as they do in the
VISA USA region, "or required to provide lists" in every other region it means the same
thing. The only difference is there is currently no fee for "registration."

Operating Principle 1.7.

The IPSP must not sign any Sponsored Merchants outside the Acquirers jurisdiction.

**Again, if you reside in the USA you CANNOT be a Sponsored Merchant for an IPSP outside the USA.

Another principle states that "The acts, omissions, and circumstances of each Sponsored Merchant
shall be treated as the acts, omissions, and circumstances of the IPSP."

**ALL IPSP's are liable for the acts of ALL of its Sponsored Merchants.

So what does this all mean? Basically you cannot run nor hide from the new VISA rules. The only
benefit to circumventing these new rules is not having to pay $750.00 for registration.
You shouldn't even ask yourself "is $750.00 worth the risk of losing your ability to process credit card transactions?"

NEW EPOCH POLICY EFFECTIVE NOVEMBER 1, 2002 related to VISA Transactions

EPOCH WILL NOT process transactions for any Sponsored Merchants who processes transactions outside of their
registered jurisdiction, this means that if EPOCH registers you as a US Sponsored Merchant and ANY of your URLs
EVER process ANY transactions in another VISA region we will immediately terminate your account with EPOCH, terminate
all recurring billing, hold all processing proceeds and refer the URLs to VISA International for non-compliance. This
is an EPOCH policy designed to protect our business and our Sponsored Merchants ability to continue to process long
into the future.

Please understand that it potentially only takes one bad apple to spoil the entire barrel, for this reason EPOCH
will have a zero tolerance policy for violating VISA Regs. We understand that this is a tough stance however we
are fully aware of the consequences that entities will face if they in fact violate or attempt to circumvent these
new rules established by VISA.

Our long time valued customers understand that we are willing to forgo growth in our business in order to
maintain our current clients business operating ability. So if you are with EPOCH we trust you will stay, if
you are not with us we welcome you if you are willing to play by the rules.

Once again, if you are a US Sponsored Merchant you can have a backup processor which is also a US based IPSP
(i.e. IBill, CCBill, EPOCH/Paycom, WSB).

Please remember ALL IPSP's are responsible for the actions of ALL of it's Sponsored Merchants, thus the new policy.


CLAY
EPOCH

I'll run from Visa until the US Justice department makes them eat their ass out next year in court. Then we'll see what visa's gonna do, the crooks they are.

:)

I think you should add Jettis to your list of US based IPSPs, based on their statement here earlier.

Clay,

It has never been clarified to me exactly what a 'presence' is.

I am setting up a US corp and US bank account, but will I fall foul of the guidelines in I do not also have an office with a phone and someone sitting their ready to answer it.

thanks
matty

Nice strong arm tactics.

Hey, Diamond Amp and I agree on something...

I better check my meds...

Ok, so lets say I bill with Epoch and my backup processor was another company for the past years and they are not compliance, because for whatever reason they are in europe etc etc.

I will loose my epoch account if I keep billing with company x or

I loose my rebills with company x to keep epoch.

less than 27 days to go!

This is fun!:BangBang:

Hi Clay,

Thank you very much for your opinion on our corporate strategy vis a vis the new regulations, your interpretation thereof and your experience running one of the largest processors on the net. I previously responded to Ron at CCBill on this same issue. I will reiterate what I said before, since you are bringing up our company name. First let me just say that we do hold Epoch in very high regard for being a mainstay of the industry and being an industry leader in many ways.


Without giving away the full game-plan on our strategy, I will say that it revolves around more than a simple jurisdictional issue. It were simply jurisdictional then, as some have pointed out earlier, all third-party billers would have simply moved to some other country. We did our homework for months and implemented what we feel is the best all-round solution. Under the CURRENT rules, Glo-Bill forsees no problem with its current business model and it is business as usual for us. We are not employing a "run, hide and stall" strategy as your description seems to imply. We have openly discussed changes to our business model and jurisdictional issues with both the banks and credit card companies over the course of months. We have across-the-board approval for our way of doing business under the current regime. If the credit card companies decide to ammend their rules at some future time or implement a whole new set of regulations, then the only thing we can promise is that we will be on top of it, as we were this time, and try to once again come up with the best solution for our clients.

I will reiterate what I stated in previous posts:

We will not divulge the full details on our strategies for obvious reasons. We will say that we saw the writiing on the wall many months ago and started taking proactive measures since then to protect our clients' businesses to the best of our ability. The bottom line: it is business as usual at Glo-Bill, meaning:

- No set-up fees
- No monthly or annual fees
- No reporting of your private information to any outside entity
- Websites from foreign countries welcome as always without special requirements
- No Big Brother style registration forms and no scrutiny of your website by other entities
- We help you maintain your chargebacks at very low levels WITHOUT blindly declining good signups
- Still no free trials and proud of it!

Again, Clay, I would like to thank you for your post and your opinion of Glo-Bill. I am certain that in any environment, Epoch will continue to prosper and offer industry-leading services to its clients. Glo-Bill aims to do the same but will occaisonally break with the industry to offer a different paradigm. There is certainly room for everyone and the more varied the solutions from the industry, the stronger the industry becomes.

was a slip there Jim.... I forgot to kill that nick's damn cookie from last night... :)

Do all users of these web merchants (Ibill , CCbill, Epoch, etc) have to pay these VISA fees, or is it only ADULT website owners? Just curious. I still believe that Paypal, if not ditched completely by Ebay, will probably never make their users pay this BS fee, because it's utterly ridiculous.
Oh, btw, I'm new here. I surfed in from ynotmasters.

I'm curious about that too.... because there's more digital commerce going on than just porn.... what about the guys that sell downloadable software and such? They don't get signed receipts either.... are they going to have to deal with this as well?

translation = if you my bitch, you gonna STAY my bitch and I bet not see yo ass lookin at any other pimp out on the strip or else. You hear me BITCH?

I figured as much, Amp... ;)

BTW, if you don't respond to me, I'm terminating your rights to ever respond to me again and telling my Mom to tell your Mom...you'll be in big trouble...

This is for the protection of all other posters here...

You have to tell me one thing. How could you state that anyone billing with 2 companies in different locations are against VISA policy?
I have no contract with VISA but I would have contracts with 2 billers. So VISA cannot tell me not to do it as long as I find a company that bills for me. If that is the case that company would be the only party that has a contract with VISA. If I would be terminated by VISA for honoring my contract with a 3rd party I would sue the hell out of the biller because how could I be punished for a breach of contract by the biller?
It can only be the rebilling company because as I stated before I would have no contract with VISA.

Clay,
As a Canadian webmaster, and also as one of your clients (I process with EPOCH) I would like to know *exactly* what does a *presence in the biller country* mean for us? I see several posts here debating about wether the rules are real or not and wether VISA is serious about it or not. I know they are real and I want to be compliant with ALL new VISA rules so WHAT do I have to do now?

A) Register a tax id in USA
B) Open a bank account in USA
C) Register a corporation in USA
D) Regsiter a civic adress in USA
D) Have an employee in USA that owns at least 1% of the company and that can answer the phone.
E) Some of the above (please be specific)
F) All the above

Or is it something else? We have a few weeks to do all the paperwork, call lawyers, bankers, accountings, fill out forms, register this and that. If you really want us to be compliant you will have to tell us what to do or in a month or so you will lose a lot of business and both you and webmasters will lose a lot of money. Not because people do not want to comply but because they are misinformed.

Clay,

If I decide to drop VISA, will I still be able to process other cards (MC, Discovery, etc.) via Epoch?

If they fall into HIGH risk...YES... like I said in another post The Travel Ind (any many others)... is High Risk.... if they don't get'm now they will Very soon..

Clay,

Is Epoch planning on crediting their webmasters toward processing fees (Like Jettis announced), or something similar? It seems like if you're going to keep the same processing fees, that's the least you can do.

Then maybe people will put up with all these other rules you're adding.

If you (any billing company) want to keep your clients, you've got to do more than just spout rules and regulations.

Funny but true....
Also A. Martin you are 2 nice with CLAY EPOCH... as a matter of fact any sponsors I promote at this time and they use EPOCH they will be History... some people are just so stupid... they do not have the grey matter to know they should hire a P/R person or at least have someone read the post before they post it. fucking CocoNut..hehee

shattered!

This whole thing reeks. Where are the greedy bloodsucking lawyers when you need them?

It reminds me of the gun control issue in an odd way. Take away the guns from the law-abiding people (mom and pop sites) while leaving the criminals (big corporations) armed. Thanks VISA.

If you need assistance setting up a US Company EPOCH will refer you to 3 differnet
entities which can provide you with a solution. This will be available next week
through our marketing dept. or if you are a current EPOCH client
through your account representative.

Clay
EPOCH

How convenient.

Can your url's be registered to foreign entities?

Does that matter at all? Basically Im saying does your whois have to match your Visa stuff or is that not a factor.

Chris

Are you sick today? 2 nice

I guess the sarcasm didnt make it through.

sexyavs: depends on where your BUSINESS is based. PSW addressed this issue in reverse: we come to you (international reception) rather than you coming to us (US presence).

Nice sig ahahahah

it did for me...totally agree...

Hi Matt,

what do you have to say about this statement from RonC posted here concerning processing in Canada: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=80469

Quote:
The rules state that for an IPSP may only settle transactions for for webmasters that the IPSP has a bank in that COUNTRY. All 26 Visa Banks have denied to take adult transactions. Currently there is a letter from Visa Canada stating that they do not wish the business, and if Visa USA would like it they do not care. Problem is that Visa USA. Has not ruled it out, but at this point they are not leaning towards allowing US banks to process those transactions.

It's ok to setup a business in the U.S. and then process with a U.S. billing company even though you dont actually reside or do business in the U.S. ? I really wonder if Visa will see this a circumventing their policy.

I think anyone that goes with epoch is an ass. The CEO's strong arm tactics are rediculous. In my opinion He should remember that is it wasn't for us his ass wouldnot even have a business. Id leave just on his asinine comments alone with out the new regs.

Its nice how these guys add on the extra 250 on the registration fee to rape us even more.

Ive emailed paypal about what there plans are as I use them as a backup but
no response yet.

Basically with rebills we have no choice but to stay with these guys at least until the rebills dry up.

My Idea would be to get your own merchant account for future charges because now that we can be TMF'd even with a third party biller there is really no reason to use them anymore.

Their only plus in my opinion was that you were bunched in there with every other webmaster so If you slipped up a bit you would stay out of the fucked for life TMF file. And the privacy was nice as most required only minimal information (thats gone now too) Now there 15% commission isn't so appealing anymore.

Maybe this will put the third parties out of business. Hopefully the cocky ones first.

Jesus Fucking Christ! I will state this, I have never EVER come across a more arrogant company then EPOCH! I have NEVER EVER DEALT with them, but they can really proof they are assholes. First, their CEO comes here and spouts crap on this board about US WEBMASTERS go fucking ourselves and now their PR man comes here. I think we should all just BOYCOTT this asshole company.

-Nato

Sleepy, when you set up a US company, this US company will be a partner for VISA and the billing company. This US company will get all the payments from the billing company, it will pay all the US taxes, etc.

I've been trying to get more info about this for the whole day from my company location in sweden.

And after i've read this i only have to say that i've lost respect for epoch and ccbill with their big brother attitudes towards international clients.

I'm going to use PSWbilling and Glo-bill in the future as it seems today. They helped me the most in answering my questions and really seemed to want to help even small international clients their best.

I wonder.. does that bend-over attitude work for sponsors and service companies to get new clients ? I think it must.

Damn, I am going to give some vocab lessons here and I should charge EPOCH for consulting.

For those of you who do NOT understand what an Acquirer is, it is basically an UPSTREAM BANK.


PARAPHRASING:

4.2.D.5.b - An Internet Payment Service Provider (Epoch, CCBill and all those mentioned here) may have contracts with multiple Acquirers (Acquiring Banks), but may only submit Transactions to an Acquirer from Sponsored Merchants within that Acquirer's (Bank) jurisdiction.

Simple Solution, OPEN AN OFFICE IN EVERY PART OF THE DAMN WORLD and have an acquirer from every part of the world and you just solved your stinking problem because then you just have an Acquirer in EVERY STINKING COUNTRY on this fucking world.


- Section 2.10 Visa International By-Laws and Regional Board Delegations and
- Section 4.2.B.1b VISA USA Inc. Operating Regulations

SECTION 2.10 VISA INTERNATIONAL

Jesus Christ, I already told Kimmy this, Visa International has its own set of rules, this currently ONLY APPLIES TO IPSP in the US. Geez, set up a NON US IPSP and resolve your issue.

-Nato

Epoch has the the single worst fucking attitude towards the webmasters that keep them in business that I've ever witnessed. Thank god I don't need to submit to their shitty strongarm tactics.

Damn EPOCH, behave yourself or face the consequences.

Epoch = Turd

We are quoting Regs and Principles directly from VISA, so if you have issues with Vocab take it up with them. As for attitude, these are cold hard facts and thats how we decided to present it. We're sorry if you do not like our policies, however we have to make decisions to preserve our clients best interest.

Clay
EPOCH
PResident