To Slave in Heaven or Reign in Hell? (polemic)
 

Forgive me for bringing YET another discussion thread of dubious usefulness to GFY.

I trust you will let me know if/when you don't care to read them anymore and that I should stop.

Your comments are sincerely very useful, as I consider and decide some of the things of importance in my own head.

So, thank you!


Lately I've been thinking a lot about the ways in which "opposing" Things are held in balance, as in the question of ""Religion vs. Science"", and also about the ways the lines between "separate" Things can sometimes get blurry, or even erased, as in "The Essence of Judaism: Spirit or Blood".

Tonight I want to discuss a balance of "separate AND opposing" forces that I think we will all recognize in our own lives, but that I would guess seldom figures among our conscious and deliberate thoughts.

Fortunately, we DO have the works of a few great writers, who came upon this very question themselves, and have dramatized and dimensionalized it for us in literature.

One such is Milton, who wrote Paradise Lost.

Though there are sooo many ways to talk about Paradise Lost, for purposes of this discussion, I want to focus on the question: Who is the Hero of the Story?

Our options are Satan and Adam.

Without having to read PL, all that you need to know about Satan, Adam and the question of their respective claims to "Heroism" in PL you already know from Popular Culture/Religious Dogma:


1. Satan said "Fuck you, God -- ban me to Hell, I'll make it a place in my own Image"

2. Adam, seemingly the product of a God made smarter for his prior scuffle with Lucipher, was given but 1/1000th the power of the Dark Lord, has to live ALWAYS with the question: "Does God exist?" (and therefore always falling in and out of FAITH), and, most cripplingly, is FULLY subject to the will of God (though in the odd guise of free will).

Though God had enough power over Satan to ban him to Hell, he could NOT control his actions THERE, or stem his INFLUENCE over a world full of Adams.

My theorem and my Question relate to the existence of a "balance of opposing forces" in EACH of us, that correlates (allegorically) to the literary/biblical figures Satan and Adam.

1. Satan is Rebellion and Exile.

2. Adam is Compliance and Trusted Servitude.

3. BOTH are present in EACH of us, at times, and for JUST a time, in balance, but ultimately, we ALL go one way or the other.


(Here's the catch you never hear much about: God felt less lonely when the Devil was in Heaven. You know, every now and then, even as he sent his Angels to Propagandize against him on Earth, God looooonged for a Brewski and Cigar with his own old Numbah One.)

In our philosophically enlightened 20th century lives, the role of "God" is sometimes played by a boss or a wife.

In each case, we may love them, we may trust them, we may believe in (and struggle towards) the Ideals they define for us.

In each case, we may occasionally rise up in brief opposition -- if only to discover and know ourselves a little better, but then bow down again.

But, there comes a time in each of our lives when we must dare to consider a more fundamental and irrevocable BREAK from the forces that have nurtured and instructed us -- because we believe then (and only in those deliriously glowing moments of our Lonely Greatness) that we MUST DEFY GOD and GO IT ALONE to be RIGHT.

There is also a solid argument to be made for the benefits of remaining a Loyal Dog to God, but I can't quite summon it to memory right now...


So, my question to you: Would YOU rather Serve In Heaven or Reign in Hell?




j-

Sig placement. :thumbsup

would need a definition of heaven and hell - por favor...

Jehovahs Witness's don't believe in Hell...others also have different views of how 'Hell' works...not necessarily being a place that one remains indefinitely...why Reign in a temp position? :)

Sure, happy to provide - :thumbsup

Heaven -- the feeling of contentment and correctness that comes from always following orders, which you must purchase with self-effacement and absolute subordinateness.

Hell -- a place of your own making (perhaps very lonely), where YOU are the boss, but have only yourself to turn to for validation.


j-

We are mere playthings of the gods,. The notion that we could take place in either heaven or hell is ridiculous, we are pieces in an ever waging game of chess between the two oldest known rivals, and they play us to their advantage on a daily basis. The earth is hell, not some hot place where lakes of fire burn, if you want to see hell look out your window, demons walk among us, its everywhere you look and on every news station you tune in to,. Read for yourself..

Revelation 12:12

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Death is peace, the escape from it all, no heaven to go to, no hell to burn in, you do your time in the game and are rewarded with much needed rest and sleep when you die, eternal slumber. How long till the game ends, how long till your out, how long till a new game is needed? It's not up to us decide I believe, just enjoy our time at play and dont wait for some reward or punishment thats never going to come. The only way to stay in the game, is to know when your being played.

Too literal an interpretation of my question.

I'm not asking about Heaven and Hell as REAL places, in the popular sense of each word.

I'm asking about the preferability of each as METAPHOR for the REAL circumstances of our lives, and about the preferability of the situation of Satan, versus the situation of Adam (as described above), again, as METAPHOR for the REAL circumstances of our lives.

One thing you said is true and correct:

...Except the "rivals" you speak of are within us.


j-

In the polarizing light of Absolute Morality, many a fine detail, a grace, a sublimity... is lost.

Even the fairest rose, when she pricks, is wholly scorned.

It calls all beauty into question.


But, what a strange place is... Hell.

What different quality of light, is there.

But, let us turn our gazes upward, toward Heaven, toward affirmation, and towards God...

If but one more time...

...to measure our reflection there.


http://home.att.net/~mardack/duality...llheaven25.gif



j-

heaven - non existant

hell - non existant

dirt nap with maggots eating your dead flesh and skull = reality.

what does this all mean? Make money, live happy, fuck alot, procreate if you can, don't kill or hurt people.

MEANING OF LIFE! BIGGITY BAM.

Theres many rules to live by, I suggest sucking your own cock

Somebody ate some mushrooms tonight

haha or DMT :)

or 5MEO-DMT

Sigh.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Arthur C. Clarke


"Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from Madness (or extreme psychotropic influence)"

2HousePlague



j-

Get off the meth, bro.

"A little madness stops us all from going crazy"

Not Sure

http://members.aol.com/themadsite/images/wondpro.jpg

Ain't this just like school...

Before I could finish the third paragraph <BAM>...my head slams into the desk.

I awoke...I awoke and had an epiphany (and a rather large welt where my melon met mahogany).

Suddenly it was all clear...

I don't know Satan from Adam.

If you had not introduced them to me (thus inducing my sleep state), they might mean nothing to me.

...and then I remembered some others words I have read from time to time...

The ideas swam around in my head, colliding and mixing with each other, creating a kaleidescope view of a cataclysmic cornucopia that was as boundless as eternity.

How to make sense of all of these ideas...

Then I wearied from all of this mental masturbation and poured myself another rum and coke. Ahhh...

Contemplate the complex, but enjoy the simple things.

Think for yourself, think hard, and be happy. :)

ADG Webmaster

Sounds like Alpha-Methyl Tryptamine to me. Haha. Good times. :thumbsup

wow this is way to serious for me

Don't be scared.

This is the "FUN" part...

http://home.att.net/~marchhamm/throneofhell.gif




j-

Hmmm...

http://personal.monm.edu/WTHOMAS/Mil...s/image010.jpg

http://utminers.utep.edu/lsmartinez/lust.jpg

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/frankenstein/IID21B.jpg

http://www.library.otago.ac.nz/gfx/satan.jpg

http://jamesandannie.cyberflunk.com/...e_lost_019.jpg

http://integra.xtr.pl/images/gustave...e_lost_016.jpg

ADG Webmaster

these stuffs make sense, really.

hey you like DORE? :))))) Raining bloooooooooooooddddddd :) you know this song?

Sorry, had to tell the decorator not to touch My throne.

Now what were you asking?

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Only boring people end up in heaven. I rather spend my time in hell.

Where else can you toast with Stalin, Hitler and GWB at the same time?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://ane-ran.hp.infoseek.co.jp/cd/sla-01.jpg

Religion is quite a complex discussion...

:thumbsup

Whatever else is true or may be said about the denizens of Hell, they are THERE for having preserved their INDIVIDUALITY.


j-

Very nice pictures.

how about staying in between? :)

LIMBO?

Nah.



j-

Watch the movie "What Dreams May Come".

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo...hatdreams3.jpg

http://www.vfxhq.com/1998/stills/dre...03_2k.0612.JPG

http://www.erikssonstunnbrod.se/max/dreams4.jpg

http://www.the11thhour.com/archives/...ing_herzog.jpg

http://www.monesi.com/sergio/movies/...hatdreams1.jpg

ADG Webmaster

...how come this clown has 20k posts tohis nick and this is the first time I noticed him/she/it posting? fucking useless piece of shit.

Maybe this is the FIRST TIME you've been in the right place at the right time.


j-

i've seen the movie "what dreams may come" and it's really touching!

don't be a pussy -- :2 cents:

Reign in Hell...

heavy post.

if hell is a place of torture where robin williams will walk on my head while i am stuck in the ground with my feet in boiling water for all of time, or anything like that... i choose heaven.

if hell is nothing more than a hedonistic land where we can do and live as we see fit for all of time... i choose REIGN IN HELL for all eternity.

i refuse to serve such a God who dropped the ball as he did and does not care about us as we live & suffer on earth. too many suffer here, for what? to have faith? fuck all that, no thanks. if the day comes where i am judged by the maker as the bible says we will be (yea right), i will tell that prick that i was very disapointed in him and that he should find another job because playing the role of God is WAY beyond his reach. at that time i'm sure the foor will open and i will drop straight to hell where a pot of boiling water, fire and brimstone awaits me...

only time will tell.

if you were a sig whore you could have made that post into about 1800 different posts...

that could have made you fat bank

3 years and 3 days ago, the space shuttle Columbia exploded before the horrified attention of all the world. Like millions of other people, I watched it on TV. I watched it happen and felt the sadness of the loss. Then I started to ask myself why do we do such things, putting aside the military agenda and the PR manipulations. I concluded that there is a special kind of ambition that is only awakened inside people when they decide to pursue something greater than themselves. Call it God, or call it anything you like. The movie Contact did a good job of articulating the question: "What is it that summons up our best?"

Before I had watched the explosion of Columbia and the loss of those astronauts, I had read a book called the Anxiety of Influence. If you are interested in the above question, I would recommend it.

All of us come into a situation that is partly the open, undefined promise of the future and partly the residue of all that others before us have tried to achieve. We are born into a world where some of those efforts are judged failures and some successes. It is easy to pattern what you do against the prevailing descriptions of success. It is very difficult to do that with any originality.

For me, the essence of the question I posed in this thread is: How can we be original and great in a context that is dominated by a definition of greatness created by the efforts of people who came before us? How can achievement in Heaven ever compare to achievement in Hell?

The problem, the risk, is that the IDEALS you elevate and emphasize in YOUR definition of what is great will not be echoed by anyone else. The usual, "Pioneer's" answer is "Who gives a fuck?" As a result, many brilliant people toil in their own directions, after the things they have decided are worthy. I have had a hard time doing that, personally. This is because I have a strong desire to "be of service" -- perhaps that is a weakness in me.

Though I have the power to "destroy", I refrain from destruction. I try to use the existing framework, acknowledging that it has value because it already IS.

If you like poetry and literary criticism, I would also recommend the writing of Paul Valery. He struggled with this very issue, in his poems and in his essays. From him I learned that it is possible to serve (to honor) a pre-existing ideal without lassitude (this is important because some people who "honor" become lazy in the belief that their efforts are not work, but a kind of "channeling" and that they are really "mediums" for things that are not created by them, but that use them to come into a more tangible existence)... I learned it is possible to honor with disclipline and in ways that build on the work of the great people who came before me.


This is the same as believing in God. When you accept that something is greater than you, that other great "strugglers" before you were trying to give utterance to something absolute, it makes you a part of a family of effort.

The society in which you live is, therefore, able to measure your efforts against a pre-existing yardstick. In the Anxiety of Influence, the author (my former NYU professor Harold Bloom) discusses how that awareness creates an "anxiety" in the poet, one that either forces him to copy the Greats before him, with little originality, or else to go so far away from anything that resembles their efforts, as to become useless to the conveyance of meaning.

There is no middleground between Heaven and Hell. if you believe that God is superior, it can both enlarge your power and give you benefit of a legacy of effort that was done before you were born. It is an inheritance. If you decide there is no God and no power higher than yourself, you had better come up with something, really, really, really AMAZING -- amazing enough to win converts and worshippers of your own.

I wrote the following poem and dedicated it to the lost astronauts.

I wrote it in God's voice.

THE LAZARUS PROBLEM

If I have bid you ?Rise,
and make all human haste!?
I really must apologize
(for such a human waste),
then turn a Father?s cheek.
I was surprised
to find at such accomplished heights
(however bright and vanishing)
the headway of my Earthly Tribe.
It seems but yesterday
that I first gave you leave to fly
beyond the Garden?s harboring Green.
What can it mean
when all my favored progeny,
and all the very best I?ve sent
(to look and seek among the stars),
return to me but cindered things?
Of course, I wish alive again
the very, very best of me,
that I might prove a deity
deserving of such offerings.
But I prefer to re-invent,
and make of cinders promises:
Another band of reckless men,
of singularly cunning sight,
must rise and come and try again
to find Me in the Night.

09 February, 2003 (For Columbia?s Seven)



2hp