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-   -   Vaccinations: An Epidemic of Misinformation (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1150729)

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 11:00 AM
Vaccinations: An Epidemic of Misinformation
 
This is a perfect example showing that "Misinformation" can kill!



I read this today and have know about this for a while. Kids getting "Measles" today and having a 6 year old daughter in 2nd grade and a 4 year old son in pre-school, will keep you up to date on things like this.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-s...hp_ref=science
http://i0.huffpost.com/gen/945186/th...S-large570.jpg

Quote:
Would you have your plumber perform brain surgery on your wife? Or have an accomplished Shakespearean actor with no flight training pilot the Boeing 747 you are taking across the Pacific? How about hiring a shark biologist to design and build your house? These suggestions are absurd because we all know that being qualified and competent in one area of expertise does not transfer to all others. But we seem to routinely forget this simple truth.



That is why those who oppose climate change become authorities in meteorology and climatology, suddenly endowed with more expertise than a scientist who has devoted her life to the subjects. The deniers magically know more than thousands of qualified scientists from nearly 200 countries. This faux-expertise brings with it a deep irony as well. Many doubters cite the Earth's past cycles of glaciation and warming to discount what we are seeing today as nothing but natural variation. How do the skeptics know of that climate history? From the very scientists whose conclusions they now doubt! As if the scientists themselves are unaware of their own conclusions about the earth's past, or if they are aware, did not take that history into account. Deniers preferentially believe one set of facts from those scientists but dismiss other facts as liberal nonsense. I could not make this stuff up.



False claim to expertise is why actors feel qualified as authorities on various matters unrelated to the film industry. Standing in front of a camera does not confer any special expertise on anything other than reading lines, but that stops few from venturing farther afield. The problem with claiming expertise outside one's true competency is that the ensuring claims are often ridiculous, misinformed, ignorant or downright dumb.



The latest eruption of star-studded stupidity comes from comedian Rob Schneider (whose comedy I much enjoy). Schneider opposes mandatory vaccination, using the patently incorrect and absurd argument that "the efficacy of these shots has not been proven." He added, "And the toxicity of these things -- we're having more and more side effects. We're having more and more autism."



I just want to scream in frustration.

These claims from Schneider are not the benign utterances of an imbecile; they are deadly in their impact. Let us examine these two outrageously incorrect assertions. First, the issue of efficacy: Unlike the absurd claim made by Schneider, vaccines have proven beyond any and all doubt to be extraordinarily efficacious. Vaccines are the most important, effective, and safest medical advance in all of human history. Vaccinations have led to the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio. Any time you might have even a twinge of a thought against vaccinations, think of the millions of people who suffered terrible disability and death prior to the development of vaccines for these horrible diseases. And the millions of people now free from those scourges because of vaccines.



Every year vaccines save 3 million lives among children younger than 5 years old every year by preventing diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and measles; if adults are included, vaccines save up to 6 million lives annually. If you oppose vaccinations, I believe you are for the death of an additional 3 million children every year. The Third Edition of the State of the World's Vaccines and Immunization reports that:



"Between 2000 and 2007, the number of children dying from measles dropped by 74% worldwide, from an estimated 750,000 to an estimated 197,000 children. In addition, immunization prevents sickness as well as lifelong disability, including measles-related deafness, blindness, and mental disability."
The study also states that:



"In 1988, polio was endemic in 125 countries and paralyzing an estimated 350,000 children every year (close to 1000 cases a day). By the end of 2007, polio had been eradicated in three of WHO's six regions - the Region of the Americas, the European Region, and the Western Pacific Region. Following implementation of the rubella elimination strategy in the Americas, the number of reported cases of rubella declined by 98% between 1998 and 2006. By 2000, 135 countries had eliminated neonatal tetanus and by 2004, annual deaths from neonatal tetanus had fallen to an estimated 128 000, down from 790,000 deaths in 1988."
If you oppose vaccinations, try to justify that position with the reality that in the absence of vaccinations polio would paralyze 10,000 children every year; German measles would cause birth defects and mental retardation in as many as 20,000 kids, and diphtheria would be a common cause of death in school children. Anytime you have an urge to oppose vaccination, think of your kid dying of diphtheria. If you oppose vaccinations, I believe you are for 10,000 kids each year becoming paralyzed.



The deep, terrible irony of the anti-vaccination movement is that the incredible success of vaccines has caused the uninformed to forget how important, successful and safe vaccination programs are; and how vital vaccines are to preventing horrible diseases from reemerging. And reemerge they do: Because of the anti-vaccination movement, measles is once again rearing its ugly head. Measles is highly contagious and spreads rapidly among the non-vaccinated. There is no treatment for measles, only prevention. In 2000 measles was nearly eradicated in the United States; with a drop in immunization due to unjustified concerns about vaccines, the United States is witnessing this year the largest measles outbreak since 1996. Ignorance, false claims to expertise and scientific illiteracy are threatening our children's health.



And now to Schneider's claim that vaccines are linked to autism. Again, I desperately want to scream in frustration at the top of my lungs. This bizarre claim comes from just one paper published in 1998 in the medical journal Lancet, subsequently withdrawn for suspicions of scientific fraud, and fully discredited by later study. Repeat after me: There is no evidence none, zero, absolutely nothing to link vaccinations with autism. It is a myth, a fallacy, factually incorrect. Yet tens of thousands of parents risk their children's health by withholding critical vaccinations. Like Schneider, many parents still to this day insist that vaccines cause autism, even in the complete absence of any evidence to support the claim with the withdrawal of the original paper. You might as well claim that vaccines cause baldness; no, no, I've got the perfect claim: Vaccines are ineffective but cause global warming! In that we combine belief in something for which there is no evidence and disbelief in another other for which there is indisputable proof. Perfect.


Vaccines save lives, millions of lives, and prevent untold suffering and misery. Vaccines are safe and effective, as proven by billions of doses given with no harm. The efficacy of vaccines is beyond dispute with the eradication of some of humankind's greatest scourges and the precipitous drop in diseases once common. Of course absolutely nothing is 100 percent safe and effective; sitting on your couch with a helmet does not guarantee an airplane tail won't fall through your roof and kill you. But the awesome, amazing benefits of vaccines vastly, incredibly, outrageously outweigh any potential risk. Opposing vaccines is foolhardy, dangerous, irresponsible, and just plain ignorant. Please, please, please stop this misguided and misinformed effort to prevent vaccinations. If you want to oppose vaccines, go to an island with all others of your ilk and witness the devastation as preventable diseases ravage your population. But leave the rest of us sane people to the task of saving lives with the greatest medical advance ever seen in human history.

If you have kids or have a strong opinion on either side, I would love to hear what you have to say. Please chime in.


Just Dave

arock10 09-25-2014 11:08 AM
In b4 wehateporn

_Richard_ 09-25-2014 11:11 AM
the chinese are currently trying to figure out why they are having measles outbreaks, when almost 97% of the population complies with vaccination

PR_Glen 09-25-2014 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 20234918)
the chinese are currently trying to figure out why they are having measles outbreaks, when almost 97% of the population complies with vaccination
while the rest of us see how bad those outbreaks would have been a lot worse if that wasn't the case.

ps where you get 97% from? that sounds like horse shit..

_Richard_ 09-25-2014 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 20234925)
while the rest of us see how bad those outbreaks would have been a lot worse if that wasn't the case.

ps where you get 97% from? that sounds like horse shit..
it's more like 99%

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/...tatistics.html

they were hoping to eradicate by 2015.. alas

dyna mo 09-25-2014 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 20234930)
it's more like 99%

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/...tatistics.html

they were hoping to eradicate by 2015.. alas
According to many, it's due to urban migration resulting in peeps not getting vaccinated .

Quote:
What?s behind the outbreak? Some experts say China?s nearly 250 million migrant workers, who have moved in recent years from rural areas to jobs in urban centers, and whose families may have missed country-wide vaccination drives because of their nomadic lifestyle. ?The incidence of measles is likely to rise, mostly in adults, because China has such a large mobile population and many have missed their vaccinations,? Cai Haodong, an expert in infectious diseases at Beijing Ditan Hospital, told the South China Morning Post.
http://qz.com/230782/chinas-vast-urb...les-outbreaks/

VikingMan 09-25-2014 11:31 AM
Dave if you have small children then you know that WAY WAY WAY more kids are fucked up in some way than when you were a child. I am not saying it is only the toxins added to vaccines but believe it is the totality of all the toxins in the environment. Kids breathe horrible air, breathe in flame retardants from their mattresses when they sleep, drink out of plastic cups and play with plastic toys while running around on artificial floors with their bare feet. They eat food which is increasingly contaminated with pesticides. And they are exposed to more and more shit like WiFi and cell phone radiation (their sculls are thinner so they are more susceptible). On top of that they get outside less and spend more time in front of computer screens and TVs than we did. I am not anti vaccine but think there is some connection to all these ailments kids are suffering. It is not the the VACCINE but the toxins in the vaccines. I don't see why people don't demand that vaccines are made safer in addition to spacing them out over a longer period. Why does the argument have to be 100% for vaccine or 100% anti vaccine?

_Richard_ 09-25-2014 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20234932)
According to many, it's due to urban migration resulting in peeps not getting vaccinated .



http://qz.com/230782/chinas-vast-urb...les-outbreaks/
which is interesting if they're reporting to have a 99% vaccination rate..

dyna mo 09-25-2014 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20234936)
Dave if you have small children then you know that WAY WAY WAY more kids are fucked up in some way than when you were a child. I am not saying it is only the toxins added to vaccines but believe it is the totality of all the toxins in the environment. Kids breathe horrible air, breathe in flame retardants from their mattresses when they sleep, drink out of plastic cups and play with plastic toys while running around on artificial floors with their bare feet. They eat food which is increasingly contaminated with pesticides. And they are exposed to more and more shit like WiFi and cell phone radiation (their sculls are thinner so they are more susceptible). On top of that they get outside less and spend more time in front of computer screens and TVs than we did. I am not anti vaccine but think there is some connection to all these ailments kids are suffering. It is not the the VACCINE but the toxins in the vaccines. I don't see why people don't demand that vaccines are made safer in addition to spacing them out over a longer period. Why does the argument have to be 100% for vaccine or 100% anti vaccine?
On the other hand, we have come a long way in stopping/curbing pollutants etc, dumping shit in rivers and such, dumping shit in landfills covering it up and building homes. asbestos, smoking while pregnant, drinking while pregnant. etc et al, I don't think I've come across any research that suggests things are any worse now than they've ever been before.

dyna mo 09-25-2014 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 20234940)
which is interesting if they're reporting to have a 99% vaccination rate..
perhaps that was when they were also reporting measles eradicated ~4 years ago, maybe the mass migration that is behind the recent outbreak started after that was reported. Or pehaps the chinese are full of shit about all those stats!! as per. :1orglaugh

dyna mo 09-25-2014 11:40 AM
i doubt we could all ever pollute as much as we (USA and Russia, etc) did during all the nuke testing (and other *tests*) of the 50s/60s. holy shit.

_Richard_ 09-25-2014 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20234944)
perhaps that was when they were also reporting measles eradicated ~4 years ago, maybe the mass migration that is behind the recent outbreak started after that was reported. Or pehaps the chinese are full of shit about all those stats!! as per. :1orglaugh
apparently the chinese system and the 'cooperation' it elicits is the envy of the world..

i am curious what sort of addons the chinese have had to their vaccines.. so the HPV vaccine etc

dyna mo 09-25-2014 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 20234946)
apparently the chinese system and the 'cooperation' it elicits is the envy of the world..

i am curious what sort of addons the chinese have had to their vaccines.. so the HPV vaccine etc
I would guess then that the vaccine isn't/wasn't required in the rural areas or many of them. But the stats show that up until 2010 and this outbreak, they had effectively stopped measles wherever they were measuring # of cases.

_Richard_ 09-25-2014 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20234951)
I would guess then that the vaccine isn't/wasn't required in the rural areas or many of them. But the stats show that up until 2010 and this outbreak, they had effectively stopped measles wherever they were measuring # of cases.
and there was migrations happening before that.. riots etc have been going on for a decade

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20234936)
Dave if you have small children then you know that WAY WAY WAY more kids are fucked up in some way than when you were a child. I am not saying it is only the toxins added to vaccines but believe it is the totality of all the toxins in the environment. Kids breathe horrible air, breathe in flame retardants from their mattresses when they sleep, drink out of plastic cups and play with plastic toys while running around on artificial floors with their bare feet. They eat food which is increasingly contaminated with pesticides. And they are exposed to more and more shit like WiFi and cell phone radiation (their sculls are thinner so they are more susceptible). On top of that they get outside less and spend more time in front of computer screens and TVs than we did. I am not anti vaccine but think there is some connection to all these ailments kids are suffering. It is not the the VACCINE but the toxins in the vaccines. I don't see why people don't demand that vaccines are made safer in addition to spacing them out over a longer period. Why does the argument have to be 100% for vaccine or 100% anti vaccine?
Interesting points.


I have zero issues with vaccines. I have friends that are Doctors, a bother in-Law that is a doctor and they all have kids. My kids pediatrician is a woman with kids a little bit older than my kids; My number one question is: Did you use these vaccines on your kids? Would you use them on your nieces and nephews?

They all answered yes. For me to think that I know more than them would be arrogant and foolish of me. Keep in mind these decisions have serious consequences if I choose wrong. For me to be "RIGHT" when I don't have a PHD or MD in that particular field of study doesn't just make me wrong, it can penalize my kids health for life. This is the perfect situation where I consulted people who really do know and are considered experts in this field and went with what they though over my limited education that I learned from friends, GFY, internet, etc.

My cousin who I'm very close with has a son who has something(Autism) that she blames getting all his vaccines to close together versus not spacing them apart. She blames herself daily for her sons condition and the bad results from what she thinks were her poor desicions. Its pretty sad.



Also keep in mind: Writing what you think or writing your opinion as "IF" you know about something, on a posting board is pretty easy. If People disagree and attack you, you tell them "Fuck Off" and mute them. Simple and easy.


But; Will you actually risk your child's health, life, wellbeing on you statements that you made on the posting board? Thats the super Key question!! If you have no kids and say' "well if I had kids...", that shit doesn't count and people with kids understand and will back me up on that one.


One thing I did do was get the vaccines spaced where they usually do them together, because at that time I did not know one way or the other and I wanted to be safe with it.


But to not get my kids vaccinated was never and option for me.

Great stuff! would love to hear any and all well thought out opinions on either side of the subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20234945)
i doubt we could all ever pollute as much as we (USA and Russia, etc) did during all the nuke testing (and other *tests*) of the 50s/60s. holy shit.
I would have to agree with you on all of your points my friend.:thumbsup



Just Dave

BlackCrayon 09-25-2014 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDaveXxx (Post 20234991)
Interesting points.


I have zero issues with vaccines. I have friends that are Doctors, a bother in-Law that is a doctor and they all have kids. My kids pediatrician is a woman with kids a little bit older than my kids; My number one question is: Did you use these vaccines on your kids? Would you use them on your nieces and nephews?

They all answered yes. For me to think that I know more than them would be arrogant and foolish of me. Keep in mind these decisions have serious consequences if I choose wrong. For me to be "RIGHT" when I don't have a PHD or MD in that particular field of study doesn't just make me wrong, it can penalize my kids health for life. This is the perfect situation where I consulted people who really do know and are considered experts in this field and went with what they though over my limited education that I learned from friends, GFY, internet, etc.

My cousin who I'm very close with has a son who has something(Autism) that she blames getting all his vaccines to close together versus not spacing them apart. She blames herself daily for her sons condition and the bad results from what she thinks were her poor desicions. Its pretty sad.



Also keep in mind: Writing what you think or writing your opinion as "IF" you know about something, on a posting board is pretty easy. If People disagree and attack you, you tell them "Fuck Off" and mute them. Simple and easy.


But; Will you actually risk your child's health, life, wellbeing on you statements that you made on the posting board? Thats the super Key question!! If you have no kids and say' "well if I had kids...", that shit doesn't count and people with kids understand and will back me up on that one.


One thing I did do was get the vaccines spaced where they usually do them together, because at that time I did not know one way or the other and I wanted to be safe with it.


But to not get my kids vaccinated was never and option for me.

Great stuff! would love to hear any and all well thought out opinions on either side of the subject.




I would have to agree with you on all of your points my friend.:thumbsup



Just Dave
that guy will never have kids. he just likes to rant and rave on this board against or for things that nothing to do with him.

anyways, i think back about how so many of my friends grew up in homes where both parents smoked, smoked in the car, drank pop every day, ate like shit, etc

are there really more fucked up kids? there seemed to be a number of them when i was a kid but they weren't considered fucked up, just weird or stupid or different. now we have to label every kid as something. if your kid has some strange quirk, holy shit he must be autistic. i will agree that vaccines seem out of control in the US as they have added so many more over the years but its not like that here in canada yet we have so many kids who are 'autistic' or have allergies (which i believe this is a result of over-worried parents not exposing their kids and the fact that people with allergies often marry other people with allergies), etc, etc.

Babaganoosh 09-25-2014 01:20 PM
Don't be dumb. Vaccinate. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2014/se...u-advocates-u/

Best-In-BC 09-25-2014 01:24 PM
Don't be dumb. Vaccinate. :thumbsup:

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 20235025)
i will agree that vaccines seem out of control in the US as they have added so many more over the years but its not like that here in canada yet we have so many kids who are 'autistic' or have allergies (which i believe this is a result of over-worried parents not exposing their kids and the fact that people with allergies often marry other people with allergies), etc, etc.
The funny thing that nobody addresses and has serious factor on kids health: Maybe some of these combinations of people shouldn't procreate.


http://reason.com/blog/2010/02/03/ge...before-procrea

Quote:
Genetictesting before procreation

Counsyl, a genetic testing startup company is now offering prospective parents what it calls a "universal genetic test" that aims to let them know how their genes might combine to produce genetic disease in their offspring. Counsyl can screen for the genes associated with 100 or so rare diseases. The cost is $349 for an individual or $698 for a couple. People often are carriers of recessive genes that could cause disease if their procreative partner also carries such genes. Counsyl argues that its test allows users to prevent needless suffering. For example, users who test positive for a disease could choose to avail themselves of in vitro fertilization combined pre-implantation genetic diagnosis of embryos, use donor eggs or sperm, or prepare themselves for the possibility of a bearing a child with the disease. In the latter case, parents might also then have a head start on possible early treatment options.

According to Technology Review, Harvard linguist and cognitive researcher Steven Pinker and his wife novelist Rebecca Goldstein have taken the test. TR reports:

Pinker, who has no children, discovered that both he and his wife, novelist Rebecca Goldstein, carry a genetic mutation linked to familial dysautonomia, a rare nervous system disorder. That means that if the couple had children, each would have had a 25 percent chance of inheriting the disease-causing mutation from both parents and therefore developing the disease. (Familial dysautonomia is a so-called Mendelian disease, which means that people who carry only one copy of the mutation, like Pinker and his wife, are not at risk.)

"Children aren't in our cards, we are a little old for that," says Pinker. "But if we had met a few years earlier, before the test had been invented, we would have been playing roulette with our kids." After learning of their test results, Pinker's siblings and Goldstein's daughters also underwent testing, learning they are not carriers. The disease-linked variation is more common among Ashkenazi Jews.

Pinker, who serves as a scientific advisor to Counsyl, says that he hopes the couple will become "poster children" for screening. "The fact that we both tested positive for the same disease is a reminder that, yes, this can happen," says Pinker. "The odds are low but not astronomically low. And it's a serious enough risk that people ought to avail themselves of this technology."

What are the chances that both parents might be carriers of the same deleterious genes? The New York Times reports:

Counsyl executives say 35 to 40 percent of people tested are carriers for at least one disease in the test. In about 0.6 percent to 0.8 percent of cases, they say, both members of the couple are carriers for the same disease.

Counsyl's assertion that "genetic testing is a human right, not a luxury" goes too far, but I do agree that anyone who wants to use such testing for themselves should be allowed to do so.


Just Dave

onwebcam 09-25-2014 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babaganoosh (Post 20235032)
What if the other family members infected her with the flu from their flu shot flu? I don't get flu shots and the last time I had the flu is after one night 5-6 years ago I was sitting at a bar next to a noticably very ill female. She looked like she was going to die right there, she informed me that she had just got out on leave the day before, received her flu shot that day and that was why she was ill. The very next day began the worst bout of flu I have ever had and the only time I've ever had to see a doctor outside of broken bones or serious cuts my entire adult life and beyond. Also only had a handful of vaccinations my entire life.

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by onwebcam (Post 20235084)
What if the other family members infected her with the flu from their flu shot flu? I don't get flu shots and the last time I had the flu is after one night 5-6 years ago I was sitting at a bar next to a noticably very ill female. She looked like she was going to die right there, she informed me that she had just got out on leave the day before, received her flu shot that day and that was why she was ill. The very next day began the worst bout of flu I have ever had and the only time I've ever had to see a doctor outside of broken bones or serious cuts my entire adult life and beyond. Also only had a handful of vaccinations my entire life.

I don't get fu shots every year because I'm lazy and generally don't get sick. But I absolutely "don't" believe you can get the fu from a flu vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onwebcam (Post 20235084)
she informed me that she had just got out on leave the day before, received her flu shot that day and that was why she was ill
No disrespect, but you are talking about a girl in a bar. Her expertise was in??? Is she a doctor? Work for CDC? PHD in viruses and virus transmission?


You mentioned leave? Military girl? On a boat with someone else that may have been sick possibly? Maybe she slept with a guy days before who had the flu? My point is that people can say anything about anything with Zero qualifications on that subject other than an opinion that can be stated as a fact or perceived as a fact by the person listening to it.


I believed the same way as you did, when I was a teenager. That was before I went to college, before I took, Science, Physiology1 and 2, anatomy 1, physical science and a few other classes where we were I learned and was tested about everything viruses and vaccines.


Even with knowing all of that, it still feels strange to get a dead virus injected in me and get told that this is a vaccine. But I do trust in science and medical technology.


As I said earlier, my post was not to insult or troll. Just a difference of opinion with a few facts behind it.


Quote:
Top 13 Flu Myths
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/fe...p-13-flu-myths



Flu Myth #3: The flu vaccine can give you the flu.

Flu Myth #3: The flu vaccine can give you the flu.
This is the flu myth most likely to drive experts bonkers. ?There is simply no way that the flu vaccine can give you the flu,? says Hay. ?It?s impossible.?


Why? For one, injected flu vaccines only contain dead virus, and a dead virus is, well, dead: it can?t infect you. There is one type of live virus flu vaccine, the nasal vaccine, FluMist. But in this case, the virus is specially engineered to remove the parts of the virus that make people sick.

Despite the scientific impossibility of getting the flu from the flu vaccines, this widespread flu myth won?t die. Experts suspect two reasons for its persistence. One, people mistake the side effects of the vaccine for flu. While side effects to the vaccine these days tend to be a sore arm, in the past, side effects often felt like mild symptoms of the flu. Two, flu season coincides with a time of year when bugs causing colds and other respiratory illnesses are in the air. Many people get the vaccine and then, within a few days, get sick with an unrelated cold virus. However, they blame the innocent flu vaccine, rather than their co-worker with a runny nose and cough.

Just Dave

Rochard 09-25-2014 03:27 PM
Jesus Christ, cliff notes?

You expect me to read that?

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 20235135)
Jesus Christ, cliff notes?

You expect me to read that?
HAHAHAHAHA!!! That very well just explained to me and GFY why you post the things that you post. lol


Common my friend! You know you need to read things to take in information right? You know that taking in information and understading it is a prerequisite to giving an opinion about that information right?


Your smart dude! I know that. Sat with you had drinks with you. And I like you.:thumbsup



Just Dave

Sly 09-25-2014 03:49 PM
I read 200-300 pages worth of text a day. Reading 4 paragraphs of a passionate argument is a breeze, whether I agree or not.

Feel free to post your "novels." They get read.

SilentKnight 09-25-2014 04:05 PM
Speaking of kids being more fucked up today than yesteryear...what's with all the peanut allergies?

Hell, when I grew up nearly every kid had PBJ sandwiches in his brownbag lunch. It was a staple all through school. In all my years of school I can't ever recall a single kid having a 'peanut allergy'.

Today - it seems rampant. Anything containing even a trace of peanuts seems to be banned from so many schools.

(shrug)

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentKnight (Post 20235163)
Speaking of kids being more fucked up today than yesteryear...what's with all the peanut allergies?

Hell, when I grew up nearly every kid had PBJ sandwiches in his brownbag lunch. It was a staple all through school. In all my years of school I can't ever recall a single kid having a 'peanut allergy'.

Today - it seems rampant. Anything containing even a trace of peanuts seems to be banned from so many schools.

(shrug)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! I know! Right???


I truly don't know.


But I found this:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...rmine-a-cause/


Just Dave

VikingMan 09-25-2014 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 20235025)
that guy will never have kids.
What an absurd statement. Actually my kid was born pre mature at only 4.5 pounds and the doctor wanted to immediately inject a Hep B vaccine. We declined because the baby did not even have lungs fully developed yet and hand to be put on a respirator and inside an incubator for several weeks. "That guy" *as you refer to me) made most of the health and nutrition decisions and now that tiny helpless underdeveloped baby is ahead of other classmates and hardly ever gets sick. As you many know most pre mature babies have lifelong problems and are behind other kids their same age.

Oh wait, the one time the kid was vaccinated there was a horrible reaction which required hospitalization and it took a few months for everything to get back to normal. So yes my kid has been really sick one time.

1. Mom breast fed for 1.5 years and after that everything has been whole organic foods. We never used store bought baby food. We bought a BabyCook and made our own fresh baby food. Absolutely no soda ever. No reason to drink that garbage and it tastes like shit anyway.
2. no vaccinations after the first scare and never has taken any anti biotics
3. pure air, I still run air purifiers
4. use of glass instead of plastic for drinks
5. natural fibers for cribs and mattresses so no cancer causing flame retardants to breathe in.
6 no cheap ass furniture made by slave-ish labor in Asia which off gasses. Everything is wood or metal.
7. Very limited time in the car because when you are on the road you breathe in a shitload of toxic air. Also we have property outside the city at the foothills of a large mountain and live way off any highway or busy road so the air is crystal clar
8. No WiFi in the house and extremely limited cell phone use for the kid. Breaker is turned off at night so no electric fields to disturb sleep. I have no idea if this matters but I saw a video from a PHD at Colombia who feels very strong about doing this.
Number 9 is going to get some of you nutjobs who think poisoning your kids is a good thing.......so get ready to wet your panties......NO FLUORIDE. Well some I guess from water and food cooked in with fluoridated water when we are out and about but at home the water is from a well so no bathing in that toxic shit and no drinking it. My kid's teeth are rotted right? Nope sorry again. Pearly white.

I do all of this yet the shit stain parents who feed their kids McDonald's, live next to a freeway, and let their kids play video games all day and let them press cell phones up to their ears for hours on end think I am a child abuser for not vaccinating even though vaccine companies admit that some kids should not have vaccines such as kids who have had bad reactions.

The way I see it not getting vaccines is kind of like reaching to the back of the cooler at the supermarket to get the freshest milk. It may not be socially responsible but fuck it I don't care I want the freshest milk and I don't want my kid having another bad reaction "for the greater good". If you vaccinate your kid and you believe vaccines work then being around my kid should be zero risk for your kid. But of course that is not how many parents feel.

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235265)
What an absurd statement. Actually my kid was born pre mature at only 4.5 pounds and the doctor wanted to immediately inject a Hep B vaccine. We declined because the baby did not even have lungs fully developed yet and hand to be put on a respirator and inside an incubator for several weeks. "That guy" *as you refer to me) made most of the health and nutrition decisions and now that tiny helpless underdeveloped baby is ahead of other classmates and hardly ever gets sick. As you many know most pre mature babies have lifelong problems and are behind other kids their same age.

Oh wait, the one time the kid was vaccinated there was a horrible reaction which required hospitalization and it took a few months for everything to get back to normal. So yes my kid has been really sick one time.

1. Mom breast fed for 1.5 years and after that everything has been whole organic foods. We never used store bought baby food. We bought a BabyCook and made our own fresh baby food. Absolutely no soda ever. No reason to drink that garbage and it tastes like shit anyway.
2. no vaccinations after the first scare and never has taken any anti biotics
3. pure air, I still run air purifiers
4. use of glass instead of plastic for drinks
5. natural fibers for cribs and mattresses so no cancer causing flame retardants to breathe in.
6 no cheap ass furniture made by slave-ish labor in Asia which off gasses. Everything is wood or metal.
7. Very limited time in the car because when you are on the road you breathe in a shitload of toxic air. Also we have property outside the city at the foothills of a large mountain and live way off any highway or busy road so the air is crystal clar
8. No WiFi in the house and extremely limited cell phone use for the kid. Breaker is turned off at night so no electric fields to disturb sleep. I have no idea if this matters but I saw a video from a PHD at Colombia who feels very strong about doing this.
Number 9 is going to get some of you nutjobs who think poisoning your kids is a good thing.......so get ready to wet your panties......NO FLUORIDE. Well some I guess from water and food cooked in with fluoridated water when we are out and about but at home the water is from a well so no bathing in that toxic shit and no drinking it. My kid's teeth are rotted right? Nope sorry again. Pearly white.

I do all of this yet the shit stain parents who feed their kids McDonald's, live next to a freeway, and let their kids play video games all day and let them press cell phones up to their ears for hours on end think I am a child abuser for not vaccinating even though vaccine companies admit that some kids should not have vaccines such as kids who have had bad reactions.

The way I see it not getting vaccines is kind of like reaching to the back of the cooler at the supermarket to get the freshest milk. It may not be socially responsible but fuck it I don't care I want the freshest milk and I don't want my kid having another bad reaction "for the greater good". If you vaccinate your kid and you believe vaccines work then being around my kid should be zero risk for your kid. But of course that is not how many parents feel.


Thank you for sharing. Much respect for what you wrote.:thumbsup


Where do you live? Sounds like a pretty good area.


Your the person who's opinion I like to hear.

We may disagree on a few things, but I really like and respect what you wrote and the reasons you stated for the choices you made. I do know that having a child will force you to research your choices carefully.


And your statement about; if everyone is getting their kids vaccinated, the you shouldn't have to worry about getting yours vaccinated. Is a very valid point. But what happens when your child is an adult and doesn't have the immunities built up for vaccine-able childhood diseases like mumps, measles, chicken pox, etc?


I agree with you on why your doing things that you are doing, but when I get stories like this.... Next post... It makes me really think...

JustDaveXxx 09-25-2014 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235265)
What an absurd statement.............
Quote:
Growing Up Unvaccinated

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/gro...-unvaccinated/
http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/wpv...18-300x279.png


I am the 70s child of a health nut. I wasn?t vaccinated. I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar til I was one, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame. My mother used homeopathy, aromatherapy, osteopathy, we took daily supplements of vitamin C, echinacea, cod liver oil. I had an outdoor lifestyle; I grew up next to a farm, walked everywhere, did sports and danced twice a week, drank plenty of water. I wasn?t even allowed pop; even my fresh juice was watered down to protect my teeth, and I would?ve killed for white, shop-bought bread in my lunch box once in a while and biscuits instead of fruit like all the other kids. We only ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week and my mother and father cooked everything from scratch ? I have yet to taste a Findus crispy pancake and oven chips were reserved for those nights when mum and dad had friends over and we got a ?treat.?

As healthy as my lifestyle seemed, I contracted measles, mumps, rubella, a type of viral meningitis, scarlatina, whooping cough, yearly tonsillitis, and chickenpox, some of which are vaccine preventable. In my twenties I got precancerous HPV and spent 6 months of my life wondering how I was going to tell my two children under the age of 7 that mummy might have cancer before it was safely removed.

So having the ?natural immunity sterilised out of us? just doesn?t cut it for me. How could I, with my idyllic childhood and my amazing health food, get so freaking ill all the time? My mother was the biggest health freak around?she would put most of my current ?crunchy? friends to shame. She didn?t drink, she didn?t smoke, she didn?t do drugs and we certainly weren?t allowed to watch whatever we wanted on telly or wear plastic shoes or any of that stuff. She LIVED alternative health. And you know what? I?m glad she gave us the great diet that we had, I?m glad that she cared about us in that way.

But it just didn?t stop me getting childhood illnesses.

My two vaccinated children, on the other hand, have rarely been ill, have had antibiotics maybe twice in their lives, if that (not like me who got so many illnesses which needed treatment with antibiotics that I developed a resistance to them, which led me to be hospitalized with penicillin-resistant quinsy at 21?you know that old fashioned disease that killed Queen Elizabeth I and which was almost wiped out through use of antibiotics).

My kids have had no childhood illnesses other than chickenpox, which they both contracted while still breastfeeding. They too grew up on a healthy diet, homegrown organics etc. Not to the same extent as I did, though, as I was not quite as strict as my mother, but they are both healthier than I have ever been.

I find myself wondering about the claim that complications from childhood illnesses are extremely rare but that ?vaccine injuries? are rampant. If this is the case, I struggle to understand why I know far more people who have experienced complications from preventable childhood illnesses than I have EVER met with complications from vaccines. I have friends who became deaf from measles. I have a partially sighted friend who contracted rubella in the womb. My ex got pneumonia from chickenpox. A friend?s brother died from meningitis.

Anecdotal evidence is nothing to base decisions on. But when facts and evidence-based science aren?t good enough to sway someone?s opinion, then this is where I come from. After all, anecdotes are the anti-vaccine supporter?s way. Well, this is my personal experience. And my personal experience prompts me to vaccinate my children and myself. I got the flu vaccine recently, and I am getting the whooping cough booster to protect my unborn baby. My natural immunity from having whooping cough at age 5 will not protect him once he?s born.

I understand, to a point, where the anti-vaccine parents are coming from. Back in the 90s when I was a concerned, 19-year-old mother, frightened by the world I was bringing my child into, I was studying homeopathy, herbalism and aromatherapy; I believed in angels, witchcraft, clairvoyants, crop circles, aliens at Nazca, giant ginger mariners spreading their knowledge to the Aztecs, the Incas and the Egyptians and that I was somehow personally blessed by the Holy Spirit with healing abilities. I was having my aura read at a hefty price and filtering the fluoride out of my water. I was choosing to have past life regressions instead of taking anti-depressants. I was taking my daily advice from tarot cards. I grew all my own veg and made my own herbal remedies. I was so freaking crunchy that I literally crumbled. It was only when I took control of those paranoid thoughts and fears about the world around me and became an objective critical thinker that I got well. It was when I stopped taking sugar pills for everything and started seeing medical professionals that I began to thrive physically and mentally.

If you think your child?s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it?s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines. But not everyone around you is that strong, not everyone has a choice, not everyone can fight those illnesses, and not everyone can be vaccinated. If you have a healthy child, then your healthy child can cope with vaccines and can care about those unhealthy children who can?t. Teach your child compassion, and teach your child a sense of responsibility for those around them. Don?t teach your child to be self serving and scared of the world in which it lives and the people around him/her. And teach them to LOVE people with ASD or any other disability for that matter, not to label them as damaged.

And lastly but most importantly for me ? knowingly exposing your child to childhood illnesses is cruel; even without complications these diseases aren?t exactly pleasant. I don?t know about you, but I don?t enjoy watching children suffer even with a cold or a hurt knee. If you?ve never had these illnesses you don?t know how awful they are?I do. Pain, discomfort, the inability to breathe or to eat or to swallow, fever and nightmares, itching all over your body so much that you can?t stand lying on bed sheets, losing so much weight you can?t walk properly, diarrhea that leaves you lying prostrate on the bathroom floor, the unpaid time off work for parents (and if you?re self employed that means NO INCOME), the quarantine, missing school, missing parties, the worry, the sleepless nights, the sweat, the tears and the blood, the midnight visits to A and E, sitting in a doctor?s waiting room on your own because no one will sit near you because they?re rightfully scared of those spots all over your kids face.

Those of you who have avoided childhood illnesses without vaccines are lucky. You couldn?t do it without us pro-vaxxers. Once the vaccination rates begin dropping, the less herd immunity will be able to protect your children. The more people you convert to your anti-vax stance, the quicker that luck will run out.

Amy Parker is a 37 year old mother of two teenagers, with a new arrival on the way. She was brought up in the idyllic countryside of the Lake District, England by health conscious parents?an artist and a ballet teacher. She currently lives on the Fylde coast where she teaches piano and singing. Amy runs arts and crafts workshops for children and adults.

© Voices for Vaccines 2013.


Just Dave

VikingMan 09-25-2014 08:09 PM
Wow that woman had a really unlucky streak. As far as I know nobody I have ever known has had measles, rubella, or any of those other diseases except for chicken pox. I have never known anyone who had a kid who had whooping cough either. Is it possible she really had all those things? Of course it is possible but she is about the most unlucky person on planet earth.

Listen vaccines are a gamble. If her story is true then she lost big time. Again I am not anti vaccine but I am for my own kid because of the horrible reaction. High fever for days and a kid who was not fully conscious for a few months. Just basically a general spaced out look. Not fun.

BlackCrayon 09-26-2014 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235265)
What an absurd statement. Actually my kid was born pre mature at only 4.5 pounds and the doctor wanted to immediately inject a Hep B vaccine. We declined because the baby did not even have lungs fully developed yet and hand to be put on a respirator and inside an incubator for several weeks. "That guy" *as you refer to me) made most of the health and nutrition decisions and now that tiny helpless underdeveloped baby is ahead of other classmates and hardly ever gets sick. As you many know most pre mature babies have lifelong problems and are behind other kids their same age.

Oh wait, the one time the kid was vaccinated there was a horrible reaction which required hospitalization and it took a few months for everything to get back to normal. So yes my kid has been really sick one time.

1. Mom breast fed for 1.5 years and after that everything has been whole organic foods. We never used store bought baby food. We bought a BabyCook and made our own fresh baby food. Absolutely no soda ever. No reason to drink that garbage and it tastes like shit anyway.
2. no vaccinations after the first scare and never has taken any anti biotics
3. pure air, I still run air purifiers
4. use of glass instead of plastic for drinks
5. natural fibers for cribs and mattresses so no cancer causing flame retardants to breathe in.
6 no cheap ass furniture made by slave-ish labor in Asia which off gasses. Everything is wood or metal.
7. Very limited time in the car because when you are on the road you breathe in a shitload of toxic air. Also we have property outside the city at the foothills of a large mountain and live way off any highway or busy road so the air is crystal clar
8. No WiFi in the house and extremely limited cell phone use for the kid. Breaker is turned off at night so no electric fields to disturb sleep. I have no idea if this matters but I saw a video from a PHD at Colombia who feels very strong about doing this.
Number 9 is going to get some of you nutjobs who think poisoning your kids is a good thing.......so get ready to wet your panties......NO FLUORIDE. Well some I guess from water and food cooked in with fluoridated water when we are out and about but at home the water is from a well so no bathing in that toxic shit and no drinking it. My kid's teeth are rotted right? Nope sorry again. Pearly white.

I do all of this yet the shit stain parents who feed their kids McDonald's, live next to a freeway, and let their kids play video games all day and let them press cell phones up to their ears for hours on end think I am a child abuser for not vaccinating even though vaccine companies admit that some kids should not have vaccines such as kids who have had bad reactions.

The way I see it not getting vaccines is kind of like reaching to the back of the cooler at the supermarket to get the freshest milk. It may not be socially responsible but fuck it I don't care I want the freshest milk and I don't want my kid having another bad reaction "for the greater good". If you vaccinate your kid and you believe vaccines work then being around my kid should be zero risk for your kid. But of course that is not how many parents feel.
sorry for my assumption. i do what i can to mitigate the environmental and medical risk and i feel that vaccinating is one on the positive side. the only way it works for those who choose not to vaccinate their kids is the fact that most do. look at countries with next to no vaccination rates, they have a much higher mortality rate. of course they are also typically third world countries but regardless, vaccinations have saved a lot of lives. i respect your choice to not vaccinate but i feel the more parents who choose not to vaccinate, the more you are putting everyone else at risk.

as for all the other things you do for your kid, it all sounds great but is difficult to do in real life. i am with you on the food, while we don't go all organic we use it where we can but are also are aware that the natural pesticides they organics use can often be as or more toxic than the typical ones. we've never fed our child baby food, we make our own for him and yeah no soda, and stuff like that. of course we won't be able to keep him from it forever but hope to teach him good eating habits.

glass cups? really? i hate using plastic but i couldn't imagine the amount of broken glass i'd be cleaning up if i used glass. not to mention i've never seen a glass sippy cup. do you also allow no plastic toys?

i don't know how you managed to buy a crib mattress without flame retardant. its against the law to produce them without it. we got one of those soybean mattresses but the outside still has flame retardants unfortunately.

i live in the burbs and while we live in a quiet road, we're still sandwiched inbetween other people. the wifi thing, well i don't know what to think about that. regardless there are radio and other waves in the air. either way, it must be a pain in the ass to be wired all the time. cellphones are worse than wifi though. i gotta say man, either you go the furthest extreme or this is all made up..turn off the breaker at night? uhhh now you are getting silly. i guess your food goes bad nightly.

as for fluoride, i keep it as low as possible. and while you think you are safe using a well, your well could have very high levels of fluoride. naturally occurring, which is better but still. unless you have some great filter on it (which im sure you do judging by everything else you say you do) you could have some microbes/bacteria that might not effect you but could effect the kid. i don't give my kid city water, we don't even drink it. i try and make sure we only use water with .02 ppm of fluoride at most. though this means drinking bottled water, which is a downside.

in the end while you can keep your kid in a bubble while he/she is very young if you try an do this for the rest of their life they will either grow up to be a freak or hate you. you gotta let kids live, this world is poison, no doubt about it but we only get one life and what is the point of spending it in a constant state of worry and fear? teach your kid to enjoy life, not just to fear it.

atom 09-26-2014 07:53 AM
VikingMan, Do you home school your kids? Here you can not put then in public (and most private) schools unless they are up to date on their vaccinations.

klinton 09-26-2014 08:02 AM
like I said some time ago, my friends child is 3 or 4 years old. he was healthy and normal kid until his parents gave him some "vaccinations mix" - like 2-3 or something like that alltogether in one time and dose. Believe it or not, but after few weeks of it this kid developed autism...So I dont need any more proofs and research on this matter.

However, and I'm 90 % sure about it - if you will give your kids vaccines in normal doses and frequency (like one every year or so), you should be OK.

VikingMan 09-26-2014 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atom (Post 20235706)
VikingMan, Do you home school your kids? Here you can not put then in public (and most private) schools unless they are up to date on their vaccinations.
No way could I handle teaching my kid, that would drive me nuts so we picked a private school. There are exemptions for medical reasons and I have a cool doctor who understands since there was a bad reaction. I got an exemption form. If there is ever an outbreak of anything I have to keep my kid at home for a few weeks but then I would just hire an amazing tutor who is already a part of my child's life.

VikingMan 09-26-2014 09:30 AM
Black Crayon........You can buy wool on ebay and make your own mattress. And yes we do allow plastic toys. Never had broken glass as far as I know because we buy the containers with protectors on the outside. And no my kid is not living in a bubble at all, quite the contrary. Every day my kid is at school, has several amazing friends and is budding equestrian. :) As far as the breakers and our referigeration...we have more than one building. Gotta keep the salmon and tuna and deer and elk frozen. No I don't hunt but I fish and everyone gives me meat which is the benefit of living in a bubble. Thank you for your concern.

BlackCrayon 09-26-2014 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235783)
Black Crayon........You can buy wool on ebay and make your own mattress. And yes we do allow plastic toys. Never had broken glass as far as I know because we buy the containers with protectors on the outside. And no my kid is not living in a bubble at all, quite the contrary. Every day my kid is at school, has several amazing friends and is budding equestrian. :) As far as the breakers and our referigeration...we have more than one building. Gotta keep the salmon and tuna and deer and elk frozen. No I don't hunt but I fish and everyone gives me meat which is the benefit of living in a bubble. Thank you for your concern.
sorry dude but i kinda think you're full of shit. you really made your own mattress? yeah right. and your keep your milk, eggs, cheese whatever in another building? must make breakfast a pain in the ass. hopefully no one needs hot water in the middle of the night either. i could go on but why bother.

VikingMan 09-26-2014 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 20235813)
sorry dude but i kinda think you're full of shit. you really made your own mattress? yeah right. and your keep your milk, eggs, cheese whatever in another building? must make breakfast a pain in the ass. hopefully no one needs hot water in the middle of the night either. i could go on but why bother.
Yes, we made a mattress. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature has the skills to stuff a fucking sheet. I will take some pics of the property and email them to you if you want. I have another bullshit story about a bear that ripped apart part of one of our sheds. I can take pics of that as well. Just because some people live differently than you does not mean they are full of shit. I am not claiming to be rich, in fact I am not. I don't drive a lambo or live in a mansion but we do have multiple buildings on a few acres of land. We also get our milk and eggs from neighbors on a daily basis. I can take pics of the chickens and send the to you. Also if you ever want to visit let me know I am happy to have you over to shoot Glocks in my back yard. Hee Hawww!!! You should see how my best friend down the road lives you would think you were transported to the 1800's. Again......Heee Hawww!!! Also we have to constantly watch for bear poop when we walk around with nice shoes on. Total bullshit story. I will take a pick of the bear poop for you with my GFY handsign just for you. Hee Hawww!!! We have two main buldings that look like old red classic barns. HEEEE HAWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BlackCrayon 09-26-2014 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235827)
Yes, we made a mattress. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature has the skills to stuff a fucking sheet. I will take some pics of the property and email them to you if you want. I have another bullshit story about a bear that ripped apart part of one of our sheds. I can take pics of that as well. Just because some people live differently than you does not mean they are full of shit. I am not claiming to be rich, in fact I am not. I don't drive a lambo or live in a mansion but we do have multiple buildings on a few acres of land. We also get our milk and eggs from neighbors on a daily basis. I can take pics of the chickens and send the to you. Also if you ever want to visit let me know I am happy to have you over to shoot Glocks in my back yard. Hee Hawww!!! You should see how my best friend down the road lives you would think you were transported to the 1800's. Again......Heee Hawww!!!
if you really think making a mattress is a simple as stuffing a sheet, you've obviously never done it. not to mention with babies, you have to make sure you mattress is hard enough so they don't accidentally suffocate in the night in case they roll over, you know sids. while everything you say isn't that far fetched, its the breaker thing. i really find it hard believe that someone would go to such an extreme over something that might be doing absolutely nothing to benefit your kid. at some point, your kid is going to want a fridge in the house, especially in the winter. i also must assume you never use a/c in the summer at night and must only use a wood fireplace for heat in the winter. and i guess your pipes never freeze either.

klinton 09-26-2014 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235827)
Yes, we made a mattress. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature has the skills to stuff a fucking sheet.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

klinton 09-26-2014 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingMan (Post 20235827)
you would think you were transported to the 1800's. Again......Heee Hawww!!! Also we have to constantly watch for bear poop when we walk around with nice shoes on. Total bullshit story. I will take a pick of the bear poop for you with my GFY handsign just for you. Hee Hawww!!! We have two main buldings that look like old red classic barns. HEEEE HAWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Walden, life in the woods" :)


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