Napster

[sKiTz]

I think Napster is getting what they deserve. Anyone who says Napster exists for ANY other reason than trading music illegally is either lying or just plain stupid.

I copied this from Napster's TOS on the software... LOL I think they have a lot of nerve to ask people to respect THEIR software copyright, when their entire reason for existance is to violate copyright.


1. SINGLE COPY SOFTWARE LICENSE. The SOFTWARE is copyrighted
and protected by law and international treaty. You may
download the SOFTWARE through a Web browser onto a single
computer for your personal, non-commercial internal use only,
unless specifically licensed to do otherwise by Napster, Inc.
This is a license, not a transfer of title, and you may not,
nor permit anyone else to, (a) modify the SOFTWARE or use it
for any commercial purpose or public display, performance, sale
or rental; (b) decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble,
modify, or create derivative works based on the SOFTWARE or the
documentation in whole or in part; (c) remove any copyright or
other Napster, Inc. proprietary notices; or (d) transfer the
SOFTWARE to another person. You agree to prevent any copying
of the SOFTWARE that you download for your use from the Napster
web site.

[Mrboogity]

napster's not distributing the mp3s, we are. where does it stop? you charge the software that is the medium for illegal copyright infringement, why not charge the ISP that isn't stopping everyone from using their internet connections as the medium for copyright infringement? and if you charge the ISP's, why not charge Creative Labs that makes the sound boards that allow us to listen to our copyrighted music, or Yamaha and Sony for making the CD Writers to take our copyrighted music anywhere, or Logitech for making the keyboards that allow us to search for copyrighted music.

I realize a few of those i just mentioned are a little on the extreme, but the same principle.

[kush]

Despite what Napster's users do while using the program, you gotta agree that what they've become is remarkable. Their ideas and software are genius, and they certainly do deserve the copyright.

[Hazen]

Oh shit. I guess that means when I removed my Metallica ban and resigned on I broke their TOS. I can't live with this guilt.

[Corpsie]

Doesn't the napster program access the napster database and that's how you know where you can download files from?

Why don't they set up a 'bot to check out for copyrighted music distribution violations.
The just need to search for major groups and look for an album release of a song (not live/bootleg versions) and if they find it, they terminate the user's account?

[MaestroJJP]

I think that we, record companies, and artists need to realize that copying happens anyway, and while this is important in and of itself, the most important point to make is that this is a new distribution method that will now never be stopped - everyone should embrace it and use it to their advantage instead of trying to stop things that can't be stopped.

[blakkfrogg]

Use of Napster has resulted in my listening to lots more types of music and going to concerts that previously, I might not have gone to.

Certain bands/performers have embraced Napster and while album sales have gone down, I heard a rumor that concert attendance is up. If this is true, then the only people bitching are NOT the artists who are able to do what they love to do, but rather greedy fuckin' record labels that aren't happy with their $40 billion a year revenues.

------------------
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[Corpsie]

People going to concerts is good for performers because they get all the $$ from it.

Lost record sales affects the record companies because they might not get enough revenue to pay for the $80,000 recording bill for the artists, the $xx,xxx for advertising and so on. If a record company doesn't make a profit (or at least break even) with an artist, the artist might get dumped.

Nowadays it's easier to get noticed (even when you're on an indy label), but it would always help to have some big guns working with you.

"copying happens" -- so do accidents and crime, but we still work to prevent them and not adapt to it.

[wolfshade]

Just switch to bearshare

Wolfshade


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It's not the drugs that drive you crazy. It's looking for drugs that drives you crazy!

[Warphead]

The people that are hurt most by Napster are the record labels, not the artists. Artists make a very tiny percentage of every CD sale, then all the expenses that are racked up promoting the CD (videos, tours, transportation...) is taken out of their share. When it all comes down to it the record label provides nothing but a loan and distribution lines. It's a big scam.

If a band could distribute their music on the internet only, then got to keep all the profits from touring and merchandise, they'd make more money than they do now. The only problem is what bank to you go to when you want to shoot a video that costs $500k?

Short of that INDY RULES!

[Slick]

I support Napster 100% !! The record companies aren't being hurt by Napster, their sales are constantly rising.

The one thing that gets me though, is why are the prices of cds going up like they are. It only costs them a few cents to make a cd and it's not the artists that are getting that money, it's the record labels !! Why don't they try lowering their prices down to $10 per cd and see how their cd sales rise. I'm sure that they'd shoot through the roof if every cd sold for $10.

Back on the Napster subject. I've got over 350 music files on my computer right now. Of those files, I burned like 2 compilation cds and I ended up BUYING at least 20 cds after downloading a song and hearing it over and over again, making me wanna go out and get it.

I'm not the kind of person that'd go out and download a whole cd of a band and just burn it to have it. If I think it's good, I'll drop the cash for it, I'm not a cheapskate. On the same lines, Napster helps me to stay away from shitty cds, while it gives me the chance to hear new cds.

[xApster]

Corpsie, thats what they are doing in napster to ....

And i agreee.. they did research and the average american spends 20 bucks on cds a year where the average napster user spends 70 to 80 bucks a year!

So how are tehy losing out? Its so hard to get a full cd on napster ... but i like just getting random songs which if i like then i go by the cd.

[RyanRon]

i support napster 110% all the fucking way!!!!

Anyone who says napster isn't a VERY usefull tool for record labels to promote new artists and collect money from current ones, is ither stupid or is too old school to open their eyes and see the implications.

Say 10 million users pay $30/month to use the service. that's $30/million monthly. $360,000,000 yearly. That's a fair chunk of change for JUST the sale of mp3 downloads. That doesn't even inclued the sale of advertisments and other mediums.

Do i really have to re-type this out again? It took a court case for Napster to realise what they have. But they do now. Here is a nice thought.

The IRAA crushes napster, the record labes see what is going on, they develop their own P2P software. They then market it on their own, and make a boat load. Why? Cause they took down their ONLY compittition and stole the idea. Call me paranoid, what ever. I think it's bullshit that they can honestly be soo blind.

It won't solve anything, if napster does go down, the whole P2P mp3 concept will only go underground, nuthing will change. The IRAA will only have a tougher time with it. Don't belive me? Well then your as blind as i thought!

Ryan
Napster isn't the anti-label $30/CD is!
41830788

[RyanRon]

Some thing else, while i'm so worked up.

I have over 1600 mp3 files ALL from Napster. I don't own a CD burner, but a few mp3 portables. Does that mean i can go to jail? Or be forced to hand over my players, that I paid for? I'd like to see those yankee bastards try! Cause i live in canada ONE CD can put me out from $10 up to $40, fuck that! I spent $300 on a player and i have all the music i could ever want. My player paid for itself in under a year. If i had bought all that msuic on CD that is!

Why did i buy a portable player? CAUSE THE FUCKING CD'S COST MORE THAN A FUCKING CASE OF BEER!!

call me a napster criminal, LOL some one please! Oh i would have GLADLY paid $30/month to emass all of the music i have now, i can't help that people are moron dick wads! And think of it after they spend 100's of thousands in court with their heads in their asses.


Ryan
Why spell-check, when you do it for me

[mischief]

I agree Ryan, I don't think napster is any more detrimental to the music biz than the invention of the cassette tape. I have used it, but in the back of my mind, I think it's still like stealing copyrighted material. If I had some big pay site (porn), and found out some site had software set up for members to trade my material to non members, I'd probably be a little pissed. It's kind of like stealing cable I guess. The cable companies nail you to the cross, but it's still not quite right.

[MaestroJJP]

I also like slick's point of view - and it is, regardless of what people think, the point of view of most people ... MOST people do not download an entire CD and burn it - this helps get music heard and if someone likes it enough, they go out and get it.

People that think Napster is the devil look at it very one-sided. I can understand the problems it raises but I believe the benefits outweigh the problems significantly.

[sKiTz]

"Anyone who says napster isn't a VERY usefull tool for record labels to promote new artists and collect money from current ones, is ither stupid or is too old school to open their eyes and see the implications."

ROFL, what an IGNORANT post!

Saying Napster is good for the Record Companies is like saying the Slim Jim is good for the car companies. Yeah, stealing cars makes people want to go out and buy one. Riiiiiiiiiight.......


Some of you folks are in real denial. Since Napster was introduced, the sales of CD Singles have plummetted 30%... why should anyone BUY a single?

Most of the people I know that use Napster, and who have a fast connection, never buy CDs any more. There are exceptions, but Napster's true purpose is obvious to anyone with half a brain.

[Keyser]

"CD Singles have plummetted 30%... "

You mean actual 'singles' with 1-3 songs? Most artists stopped making these a few years ago. Why sell a single when you can sell the entire CD? And CD sales have gone up since Napsters release. Due to Napster? Probably not, there where a lot of DoT CoMs last year and big $$ going around like Monopoly. Now that the dotcoms are sucking balls, most likely the econmoy will slow and CD sales will fall from last year.

------------------
Keyser
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[blakkfrogg]

NO ONE should have to buy a 'single' CD at the prices these f'ing companies are charging. I've seen some as high as 5 and 6 US dollars. That's ridiculous!




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[RyanRon]

sKiTz: I knew there would be a voice of oposition. You hit my point right on the nose! If they feel their sales are hurting because of napster. First off, if it was me i would find a business model to make $$ from that service. Which they have, which I as a napster user am more than willing to pay for.

Here is another scenerio, the big labels put their own artists content on their own servers and put that on the pay napster service. All of these mp3 files will be secure, meaning once they are on your computer they are ONLY good on your computer. If some one downloads the song from you, it won't play the song, rather a message that explains the secure mp3 movement. All of this technology has been developed allready. They just need a mass medium to distribute these secure mp3's. (NAPSTER ANYONE?)

What this does is takes the power out of the hands of your average Napster user and puts it back into the labels hands. They know secure files are beeing distributed, they are getting paid, and they will have SOLID facts on the number of songs beeing downloaded.

I know DJ's that put their mix mp3 files on napster and were previously un-known, whereas now they play all over the country, why? Because promoters are ALL over napster. Getting in contect with the DJ is as simple as adding him to your HotList.

Napster is usefull, no matter what you call me, or napster i still belive the RIAA is just not ready for technology!

-------
Ryan
Jerk'n ya'll surffers till the end of time.
- 41830788

[sKiTz]

"Here is another scenerio, the big labels put their own artists content on their own servers and put that on the pay napster service. "

Great idea, Ryan... I didn't really think of that application.

[kemp]

Screw the music industry. They are full of shit when they say they are losing substantial monies due to Napster.

When I was younger we NEVER paid for albums. We would use the old 'Memorex' and dub copies. How is this any different than those times?

Plus Napster does an excellent job of promoting GOOD artists that the money grubbing music industry won't promote...

Anyhow, if you are an artist you live to play for people, not for fat pockets. So I say to the music industry - if you can't handle the heat get the fuck outta the kitchen!

[longhair]

Man, I hate getting into these discussions...

Look, I am an artist, and a very indie one at that. Here's the way I see. It's all good that this happened because now Napster has a spectacular brand name with which to go legit. Yes, singles sales are declining. Album sales, unless you're the fucking Backstreet Boys, are not doing as well either. Don't tell me concert sales are up when I'm seeing artists playing smaller venues than they should be.
But, now there's a brand name that people know and, as we all know, that's 60% of the battle for a new company. Napster will go to a monthly charge, be able to pay the artists their PERFORMANCE ROYALTIES that have nothing to do with the labels and make it all work because they have a brand name. The labels are being incredibly stupid by not jumping on the wagon right now. They all want to try their own pay for download thing and it's not going to work because you cna't get everything in the same place. They label's need to hook up with Napster now and make this work, then we (artists) can make money. And yes, we do need the help of a label to properly finance and manage a project.

My beef with Napster has been that my songs can be offered without my permission and that it's not being tracked for performace rights money.

As for CD prices, you're not paying for the band you're buying, you're paying for all the bands that didn't make it this year that the label lost a ton of money on. And while it may only cost a few cents to press a CD, it costs a lot of money for tour support, advertising, videos, publicists, managers, agents, etc. Don't forget: everyone gets a cut.

[Juge]

Wow, look at all the posts. I have a few things to say:

Mrboogity: I agree with everything you've just said. Saying that napster is at fault is like saying the phone companies are at fault for prank calls or illegal information being passed over them. I also agree that most of the trading on napster is illegal - but this is still not cause to shut them down - it doesn't make it THEIR fault. Plus, it's free promotion. If I were to release a video game for the first time, I'd want people to copy it - I'd sure as hell make a lot more money, since more people will see it, and thus, more will buy. Do you thinks it's a coincidence that some of the most popular groups that made the most money and sold the most albums just happen to be the ones promoted the most? You can promote a piece of shit and make it sell.

Skitz: do you realize that the record companies have always been trying to stop new media from coming out, claiming that it will destroy the industry? Just think about how easy it is to copy tapes. They have tried to stop every new major technology that has come out, yet. They have always fought them, have always lost, and have always benefitted from them. Napster is simply the next generation technology. I've heard that sales stats have doubled since Napster's release, and I believe it. Every new technology that comes out that makes it easier for more people to listen to the artist's music, means that there's much more likely a chance of people actually buying it. The people who don't buy the records, would never buy them anyway, so stop worrying - but even those people STILL benefit the industry, since they serve as a tool to show the music to even more people - their friends. I personally think the people controlling the record industry are morons. Has anyone any info on how much money the actual artists make when a CD is bought? I've heard it's under 10%. Amazing.

Saying Napster is good for the Record Companies is like saying the Slim Jim is good for the car companies. Yeah, stealing cars makes people want to go out and buy one. Riiiiiiiiiight.......

Some of you folks are in real denial. Since Napster was introduced, the sales of CD Singles have plummetted 30%... why should anyone BUY a single?

Uh, no, it's not. We're talking about information - something that, once created, can be easily copied. How can this possibly be compared to car manufacturing?

Napster is just going to force the record companies to reduce the price of CDs and force the artists to produce good music, if they want to get paid. That's it. Even if this doesn't happen, the companies still win, look at all the free promotion. You have to realize that the people who aren't buying cd's now never did before. The small price they pay for the few who refuse to buy cds anymore is largely overcome by most of the 50 million users who now can listen to all types of music anytime they want, and this promotion will cause sales to increase. Anyone who doesn't believe this to be the case must re-think their thoughts. Look at the video game analogy again - wouldn't you like to have everyone see your game, like 50 million people, and chance that most wont pay for it, rather than copyright the fucker to hell so that only the people who pay for it can use it, but then risk that only 10 people will pay for it. Which would you choose? Honestly? Even if the game were as good as Quake (but remember that no one knows about it, yet, this is your 1st game). I don't think I have to answer that question.

Corpsie:

Doesn't the napster program access the napster database and that's how you know where you can download files from?

yes, i believe that's true, and that's the one thing that napster was doing wrong, technically - if they had no central server, there would be nothing anyone could do. I believe the FreeNet program removes the need for a central database, I forget the address you can get this program, but I do know that it is difficult to use, since it's still in the design and testing phase.

But Corpsie, how could they do all of this with a bot? First of all, renaming files would make it not work - so the only option would be to check the sound info itself - which is possible, but would take more processing time than it's worth, since anyone can make an MP3, they'd have to test every one. They'd have to download them ALL from every user to do the tests on, unless the software did it itself, which means, it would have to download ALL the music industry's mp3s to your computer to do testing, it's just not feasible. And even if this worked, they could just zip the file, call it mp3, and tell people to unzip it in the filename.

MaestroJJP: I believe what you said is correct. Even if the industry woulnd't profit, they should realize that it's going to happen, and make the best of it. Pissing people off are just going to make more programmers make more programs to do the same thing. You can't stop us all. Besides, the industry is actually profitting from this. They're just bitching because they want even more money, as if they don't already take enough from what the artists' deserve already.

Slick: you got a good point, if the prices of CDs dropped, like from $15 to $10, and the artists still only made $1.50 off of each one, they'd sell way more, and the record companies would STILL be taking in 85% of the money. Imagine that. (my figures my be wrong, but i know that they are somewhat close)

I guess that's my 2 cents.

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Juge - webmaster of
Juge's Bikini and Thong Page
http://www.jugesbikini.com/


[This message has been edited by Juge (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Mrboogity]

Wow, that's probably the heaviest post i've ever seen. Congratulations. I agree with the majority of it as well. I remember hearing last year the RIAA putting out a statement stating some $30 billion or so lost that the credit to online piracy. Those arrogant fucks just assumed that if every person who downloaded a song from Napster or an FTP or WWW, went out and bought the entire CD, they would've sold billions more cds that year. Way to go, great logic, the world isn't that perfect.

I know I currently have over 10,000 mp3s stored on my computer. I take complete responsibility for any copyright infringement, i'm at fault. I wouldn't expect Napster to take the fall for me. But not like i'm gonna phone up the RIAA or CRIA and confess everything i've done. And I know if it wasn't for Napster, I wouldn't have gone out and bought 10,000 full cds.

I'd only bought about 4 or 5 cds in my life before I started downloading mp3s, and in the few years following, i've bought about 20 cds. I can't honestly say how many cds i would've bought if i didn't already have them all in MP3, but 90% of the cds i've bought, I owned the entire CD in MP3 first. To me, there's a big difference between downloading a great album, and burning it on a CD, and actually owning a great CD as the artist released it.

[sKiTz]

Listen, Guys and Dolls.... I have NO bleeding heart for the RIAA.


I have 15 CDs of shit I got from Napster. STOLE using Napster, that is.


I hope the record companies choke on their own shit.


BUT... I don't make bones about the fact that what I'm doing with Napster (although now I use Gnutella) is "wrong" morally and legally.


But then... If I was worried about "morality"... I wouldn't be involved in the adult internet, would I?


But that's another thread....

[Bexman]

In Belgium the police just developed a tool to find napster users, downloading copyrighted software... They told those guys not to do but they gave a goddamned fuck about it. I just saw pictures in the news, how policeman with guns got those guys out of their flats... *damn it*

2 skiTz:
Of course I buy CDs, though I can download everything... If I really like the LP, I buy it, just to have somthing in my hand instead of on my harddrive...
If you argumentate like this, why don't you blame the inventor of tapes, minidiscs, cd-recorders and all those?
Why should anyone buy a CD if he can get a copy on a tape?? You see, thats not the point... If copys really would hurt the industries so hard, why should Sony tell anyone to buy a CD-writer, If they'd be feared Sony Music could make less money...

[sKiTz]

Hey Bexman....

I just posted to you on my 100th Post Extravaganza Thread!


I didn't know about the Belgian police going after Napster users... have a friend in Strombeek-Bever who uses it regularly... maybe I should give her a heads-up...

Do you have a link showing any of this? Would be appreciated....

[sKiTz]

BTW, regarding your point about tapes...

Yes, cassette tapes have been around for a long time.... and the music industry DID go after RoIO distributers (Recordings of Illigitimate Origin - mostly bootleg concert tapes) ...

But the quality of most bootleg tapes was poor, and copies of copies just get worse with each generation....

Now, with Mp3 technology, people can, for the first time in history, trade almost perfect quality recordings that do NOT get worse with each progressive generation... and worse, people can burn them on CDs easily now.... being able to trade digitally perfect copies of each track or album.


It SHOULD make the record industry shudder!!

[Babagirls]

NAPSTER IS DEAD!!

It's offical, ya'll!!! Download as many MP3's from them this weekend as you can.

After this weekend, over 1 million songs & artists will be banned from being downloaded.

R.I.P., Napster

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A wise man once said.."Wherever you go, there you are!"

[RyanRon]

Damn this weekend?

i better get busy

[drunkinmonk]

i get my music off irc server bots anyway hehe so this wont effect me much.