Paul Markham

Who here has seen Pornocracy?


It asks so many interesting questions.

If showing porn to underage people, why haven't tube owners been charged?

What Wall Street Bankers loaned Fabian, a guy with zero experience running a company and no knowledge of porn, $350 million to buy loads of porn companies? Most banks shy away from porn.

Why are their offices registered in countries like Luxembourg, where they have no staff, and Cyprus?

How true are their figures on traffic sold?

If politicians are so anti- porn, why do they allow tubes to break laws?

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AdultKing

I have. It's biased and uses questionable propositions from which to launch its arguments.

Because it is parents not providers who are responsible for what their children do on the Internet.

No experience running a business? You know he built NATS from the ground up don't you?

He was able to show investors a value proposition, he succeeded.

Why are Amazon in those countries and Ireland? Why is eBay in those countries and Ireland?

Sarn

it is a big structure problem world economy, not only in porn.

PR_Glen

sounds out of touch with reality. and the op is about 15 years behind the times...

to say the least

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Paul Markham

Because getting information from Mindgeek is impossible.



That's not the way the law is written.

Writing a program doesn't mean he can run a business. Lending money to a porn business isn't something bankers usually do. Where did the bankers get hold of the money for a porn business?

Do they have staff in those offices?

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AdultKing

Oh Paul, where does one begin with you?

Bladewire

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ReggieDurango

Where can it be watched?

AdultKing

Amazon Prime.

It appears Netflix might have it in some countries.

It was on Vimeo (legally) for the first month of it's release, it's not there now.

King Mark

Screenshot looking like she has 3 front teeth

Paul Markham

You could start with a constructive argument. Not just say it isn't true.

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AdultKing

Ok how is this. Porn is not dead, it's never going to die while people like consuming it.

Consumers have had porn in many different forms for millennia, you were a part of that for a fleeting instant that is now pretty much over. There was porn before Paul Markham was born, there will be porn after he dies.

The Internet became a platform on which porn could spread more easily than any platform before it. Like everything, the Internet went through a wild west stage before big money and governments got involved in it.

In the wild west days which I will roughly cite as between 1993 and 2007 a lot of people, myself included, made stupendous amounts of money from their various ventures. It was relatively easy to set up a pretty lousy site and earn money from it.

Post 2007 as consumer expectations changed and smarter money became involved, consolidation within the industry occurred (the Mansef Interhub period) and some smart and somewhat lucky people worked out how to get big money invested in porn through the Colbeck Capital deals. So the Brazzers guys, the Pornhub guys, the YouPorn guys, and so on all ceded to Fabian when he bought it all up. A lot of change occurred during this period. Huge amounts of money changed hands. Fabian came and then he left.

Fast forward even further to the post Fabian, Mindgeek, consolidation continues.

However despite consolidation, the advent of a mountain of 'free porn' that no single person could consume even 1% of, the existence of copyright infringing porn on torrents etc which is rampant, there are still some businesses (independent of Mindgeek) making money shooting and selling porn. There are insanely successful businesses who do business with Mindgeek that are not owned nor are likely to be owned by Mindgeek. There are successful groups and businesses making and selling porn, doing deals and so forth that may never even be involved with Mindgeek.

The people who were making easy money as content producers like yourself, or webmasters like so many now gone from the industry forums, dropped away as they could not any longer make the easy money without the investment of time, purpose, money, technology or business acumen to do something differently.

MindGeek is the first incarnation of really big money, all controlling corporate porn machines. Like all empires things will change over time, they may not remain dominant forever however I think for the foreseeable future they will remain in top spot.

Porn is not just about sex pictures and video anymore, it's about money, it's about consumer reach, it's about data, it's about power. It's changed so much since Paul Markham was making content that it unrecognisable to him. Because Paul doesn't understand it he says porn is dead, but porn will never die, it will simply continue to evolve beyond the understanding of some people.

In the Paul Markham world it's about supply chain production and sales. But in the corporate porn world the dynamics are much more complex and it's just way too easy for people who don't have a grip on those dynamics to throw their hands up in the air, look at the sky and curse tubes and free porn.

Paul Markham

Porn isn't dead, the porn industry isn't dead and I never said it was. So long as people want to jerk off it will never die. But the porn industry is a shadow of what it was because instead of selling it people now give it away for free. That's now how 95% or more now consume their porn. How many of that 95% would buy if it wasn't free? A good example is dealers giving away free drugs to get people hooked, then turning off the free tap and selling it. Porn has little entertainment value, it's main purpose is to stimulate people to jerk off. $30 a month is a small price to pay for a month's fixes.

But companies like Mansef realised it was easier to give porn away than to sell it. So long as they don't have to buy content or pay high BW/hosting prices. The amount of marketing needed is a fraction of that for selling it, because a free consumer is less likely to switch supplier and pay, than a paid consumer.

There's also another upside to giving porn away. JT in the film acknowledges the damage free porn would do to the industry. It took paying customers and converted them into free consumers and an enormous scale. So reducing the profitability of paysites and making them easier to gobble up. Now as Thommy told us producers are selling off huge numbers of scenes for $50.

The world I knew has gone, this is the new one where if you can give it away with low costs and sell ad space off the back of high numbers of consumers. You win.

But the pot is way smaller for the entire industry.

A good example is TV. Another entertainment medium. Free channels that sell advertising v paid for channels. Who is winning? People will pay for something better if they have to. My point is they no longer have to in porn. Live Cams thrive, paysites dwindle. Dating is another example. Dating sites are falling behind apps like Tinder and Grinder. Why is that? Because one is cheaper than the others.

How long before Dating is free with apps, paid for by advertising? Or is it already happening.

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AdultKing

Paul, please slip into retirement gracefully. You're embarrassing yourself.

How much do you think it costs to host sites that get billions of views per month?

How much do you think the porn industry was worth in 2000 compared to 2018? Let me give you a clue, it's an order of magnitude you cannot comprehend.

Dating is free with apps and has been for a long time, it's called Tinder.

You are so out of touch with the realities of this world it is simply breathtaking. Reading your misinformed views is sad. Watching you embarrass yourself by continually proving over and over that you don't know what you are talking about is sad.

If you want to keep tilting at windmills be my guest, but what do you want your legacy to be? At the moment you're just acting like a silly old buffer, the kind you have to be nice to at a family gathering and laugh about behind their back.

Paul Markham

Give me your estimate of what the porn business was worth in 2000. This should be interesting.

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AdultKing

About $14 Billion dollars in 2001

Sources: Forbes, WSJ

About $97 Billion dollars in 2015

Sources: Dr. Kassia Wosick NMU

About $124 Billion dollars in 2018

Sources: Bryony Cole, Melbourne University, formerly Microsoft

About $128 Billion dollars in 2018

Sources: Dr Sheila Jeffreys, UniMelb.

Sarn

what about porn affiliate marketing? growing?

Paul Markham

So when I find articles stating the opposite are you going to argue with those?

The truth is no one knows because the porn industry is based around small companies who don't have to issue figures of turnovers. So all estimates are guesses. Today even with large companies how many issue figures that can be checked?

What we all know is that if the porn industry was making 9 times what it made in 2001, everyone would be swimming in money. Click prices would be much higher, traffic prices would be much higher.

I suggest you read he article.

And I suggest you read this Forbes article. https://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/05...l#3529db9c7984

It will be revealing.

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AdultKing

Paul thinks articles are better than peer reviewed research

nude images

Porn sells but who is buying?

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tony286

I worked in adult before the net and it was a truly recession-proof business. The Forbes numbers on what porn makes,I tend to doubt them because of its all private companies. Also if porn made 128 billion, there would be a lot of rich people and there really aren't compared to that number. The money made in producing videos and selling them is pitiful compared to before. When you are competing with free and ads are paying for it.

NoWhErE

Paul doesn't read. He only writes.

There's not much you can do with him. He is here constantly asking questions and trying to open debates. Then, when someone with actual knowledge gives him the answers to his questions, he will debate them to death with non-issues or made up facts. He just likes to type and isn't at all interested in actually reading or learning what we have to say.

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tony286

I also agree with Paul. Somehow its ok for kids to go to porn sites if you had a sex shop and you were letting kids in and saying while I'm not their parent. You would be sitting in jail.

AdultKing

You know what I reckon is far more valuable than ad revenue?

Data.

tony286

I can see that but that's really not the porn business.

MaDalton

A lt of things happened between Fabian leaving NATS and getting the Wall Street loan. There are people who remember.

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NoWhErE

Exactly, its a long story involving more than just banks and its not something you really want to discuss on an open forum.

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AdultKing

It is now brother.

QFT

Paul Markham

I do, because I use logic and maths.

Divide $120 billion by $30 and then multiply by 1-100. To see the stupidity of those figures and the silliness of thinking they're for real.

Don't tell me it must be true because you read it somewhere. Do the maths.

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AdultKing

Just letting you know I'm not engaging with you anymore. You're right, the rest of the world is wrong. Of course you're the expert because you are currently highly involved and invested in the industry and your loss would cripple this industry.

Paul Markham

No worries others are doing the maths and seeing why you slipped up. To turn over $120 billion at $30 a pop and conversion rates of 1-100 it would take the whole world to be onling consuming porn.

But don't believe me, you read it online so it must be true.

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AdultKing

For the love of god, please don't let Paul watch Hot Girls Wanted, I'm not sure we could cope

Paul Markham

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Paul Markham

No, No. It's the parents fault every time. So why not lock up the parents?

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Paul Markham

Would anyone lend money to open a business that was committed to damaging the industry?

Manwin was destroying companies by giving away free porn. The problem is that since that loan the giving away of free porn has escalated and followed the normal Internet of being uncontrollable. Anyone could open porn tube, get traffic, get free porn, etc. There's no USP unique selling point.

$350 million at 10% per year is fine. For a business with some sort of monopoly, patent or USP. But for a business with none of those things and destroying sales as it does business. Where is the upside for bankers? Where is the collateral to ensure the loan?

But you read it on the Internet so it must be true.

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MaDalton

No, Paul, I am still friends with one of the guys who Fabian bought his first website from after leaving Nats and after trying his own amateur platform first.

Give it up, you are only embarrassing yourself.

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AdultKing

This question alone proves once and for all you don't get it.

NoWhErE

Paul, if you think that your math is in any way close to being reality, you are the silly one here. I don't know why you keep insisting on trying to school us. You are behind this industry by about 10 years and have no knowledge of what its like today.

I get it. In your mind all this stuff is simple. You have it all figured out. However, we (actual active webmasters) keep reminding you that what you're saying simply isn't true. So what is it going to take for you to understand?

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celandina

If you make good and original content people will pay for it. If you make shit and recycle it to the likes of Manwins and other sheister tubes over and over, of course nobody will pay for it being pitched from a pay site. Some of the shit is so bad you can't even fap to it. To wit: Porn is not dying, only those who cannot come up with anything original are...

NoWhErE

The same reason banks give money to big oil companies, to gun companies, to basically any other unethical industry out there: because banks are in the business of making money. They are not in the business of deciding whats right or wrong.

And the fact that I have to explain this to a man who has been on this earth for as long as you have should be testament to how comically unequipped you are to deal with any type of debate.

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AdultKing

Spot on.

Paul Markham

And banks will lend money to people who previously only wrote programmes for oil companies to run an oil company at a time when oil prices are sure to plummet.

Because they're in the business of making money.

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AdultKing

In our economy there are investors who make money from the loss of market value in a business.

I am sure you don't understand how complex financial systems work.

NoWhErE

I don't know if you're trying to make a point or simply pointing out the obvious....

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AdultKing

Always hard to tell.

Paul Markham

And I'm certain you don't understand how bankers work. So let me explain in as simple a away as possible.

Banker. Have you ever run a paysite? Fabian. NO.

Banker. Have you ever run a Tube? Fabian. NO.

Banker. Have you ever had experience at driving traffic? Fabian. NO.

Banker. Have you ever run a large company? Fabian. NO.

Banker. What's the turnover of online porn? Fabian. I don't know, in fact no one knows because it's made up of a lot of small companies that don't issue audited accounts.

Banker. What's your previous experience in business? Fabian. I was part of a small company that wrote programs.

Banker. Where will you be located? Fabian. I will be based in Belgium with the head offices in Canada. But I have Skype and a mobile phone.

Banker. What are you putting up as surety for this loan Fabian. I haven't got anything yet, but if you give me the money something will come back as surety.

Banker. Where will our money be if it all? goes pear shaped Fabian. I don't know.

Now tell us all what sort of business plan beats that? Because we would all love to know. Well at least those left not licking Mindgeek's ass.

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Bladewire

Showing your ignorance again Paul

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AdultKing

Thanks for proving the following:

1. That you didn't pay attention over the last decade.

2. That you know nothing about what Fabian did.

3. That you know nothing about the porn industry and how markets work.

4. That you know nothing about how capital is raised by tech companies.

5. That you should go back to your jigsaw puzzles and leave business to those still in the business.

Paul Markham

Do you get my point now?

When interviewing anyone for a loan for a business, bankers will want to know the background of the people running the company. Their experience,their knowledge and their rolls in running the company. Also the turnover and profit margin of the industry and the companies they wish to buy is vitally important.

Even with the most brilliant business plan, which it wasn't. Fabian wasn't equipped to run a large company like Manwin and certainly not from 7,000 miles away and 5-6 time zones.

Now AK will come back with some silly reply about a business plan, but how do you base a business plan on information not at your fingertips. This is ignoring the facts that it was an online porn business and was being investigated for money laundering.

I told you he would come back with a silly answer. I know banks and how banks loan money. Because I've had to do it. It has nothing to do with being in the porn business and everything about being in business.

This isn't a private conversation, others are reading what you answer with.

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AdultKing

You're making a lot of erroneous assumptions and you keep talking about bankers.

Many people who raise capital for a tech company through a capital raising firm never meet a banker.

Tech companies raise funds every day through various venture capitalists and I can tell you that none of the people at most of those tech companies have ever met a banker.

Then there's angel investors, speculative investors, the list goes on.

You keep demonstrating through your posts that not only do you know nothing about the porn industry, you know nothing about the world in general, or at least how things work in the 21st century.