12clicks

I'm not sure who this idiot is arguing with now, himself or the truth.

It doesn't really matter

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TheDoc

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200

Odd, looks like we took in less money through the 80's (and most tax cuts)... but hey, if the 1% spend more - shit is right on track with the tea baggers!

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TheDoc

Well it isn't you... you're unable to argue anything.

And I bump you one,

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12clicks

"""Moreover, according to the FY 1997 Clinton budget submission, individual income tax revenues as a share of GDP will be lower during the first four years of the Clinton tax increase, which include the effects of the 1990 tax increase, than under the last four years of the Reagan tax changes"""

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12clicks

"""The economic benefits of ERTA were summarized by President Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers in 1994: "It is undeniable that the sharp reduction in taxes in the early 1980s was a strong impetus to economic growth." Unfortunately, the Council could not bring itself to acknowledge the counterproductive effects high marginal tax rates can have upon taxpayer behavior and tax avoidance activities."""

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TheDoc

Or we could look at that and say, it took TWO tax increases to reverse the damage or 8 years before they could balance out things and give us a surplus.

Why do they/you ignore the other 4 years? AFTER the increases, when we know the results?

However they ignored the record deficit it created. So in a way, the Gov spending money to cover its ass 'one way or another' seems to pave the way for economic recovery by those standards.

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Vendzilla

lets go back in history a little

June 6th, Revenue Act of 1932 passed, the largest peacetime tax increase in the nation's history to that date
raised top tax rates from 25% to 63%
reduced personal exemptions from $1,500 to $1,000 for single persons
reduced personal exemptions from $3,500 to $2,500 for married couples

August 30th,1935 Revenue Act (Wealth Tax Act ) passed.
Increased the surtax rate on individual incomes over $50,000, the estate tax on individual estates over $40,000 and graduated steeply taxes on individual incomes over $1 million until the rate was 75% in excess of $5 million.
Decreased the small corporation tax rate to 12% while increasing the corporate tax, on incomes above $15,000 to 15%.
Some excess profits over 10% were taxed at a 6% rate and in excess of 15% at a 12% rate.





It was years after this that the Great Depression ended, lets learn from history, raising taxes doesn't work

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

TheDoc

Are you trying to say that raising taxes created the Great Depression or that lowering it got us out? Because neither is true.

What about all the other times tax rates were way higher? Easily half of the last decades taxes were higher than the peak they hit and we didn't drop into a depression, economy didn't fail, business didn't stop doing business and the world didn't end.

If you want the facts..
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

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SallyRand

All taxes are regressive but some are necessary to provide legitimate public services.

Any tax which punishes entrepreneurship or abusively takes away the product of work should be repealed.

Vendzilla

No, raising the taxes didn't help get us out of it

they don't get that, With the recent change in power, business will be more likely to consider it safe to expand, invest and more importantly hire. I figure the new congress gets into office in January and by April there will be a lowering of the unemployment rate by at least 2 full points

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

TheDoc

Raising taxes at the worst point in our Countries history to that extreme of a rate from what it was, was stupid along with many other things they tried.... which is not what is happening today.

We aren't talking about Corporate taxes, which aren't being adjusted and in some cases have been reduced already and plans to reduce them more.

Reversing the bush tax cuts is personal taxes.

The plan is to lower unemployment, which is slowly happening already with the addition of new jobs and the economy showing signs of growth all over the place. The rep's being in power, with no power - isn't going to spark anything that isn't already happening.

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Vendzilla

when the country is adding jobs, I'll believe it's getting better, but they get excited when we lose less jobs and I just don't have that enthusiasmi

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

GatorB

Yeah let's do away with ALL taxes and things will be sooo much better. I mean we won't have a military or decent roads or bridges or police or fire dept or lots of other things but we'll have all this fucking money to spend.

GatorB

Great news then since in Oct we added the most jobs since April. In fact we've added a half million jobs since then.

Ethersync

We were on a gold standard until 1971 so printing money was not an option like it is now. If money was needed taxes went up. We were also a creditor nation. We were lending money to other countries and not borrowing like now. Also, our actual tax rate is not entirely accurate because we are taxed through inflation now more so than ever. $1 in 2010 was worth $0.18 in 1970. There was also WWI and WWII to pay for and the US largely funded the rebuilding of Europe after WWII.

The bottom line is the problems we face now were not in any way caused by tax cuts nor was Great Depression 1.0 and anyone saying so is misinformed.

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TheDoc

Oh sweet then, you'll be happy to know they added about 150k jobs in October. Which is sweet when Jobs are normally the very last thing to return after a large economic downturn.

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Ethersync

...and yet the unemployment rate remains 9.6%.

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TheDoc

Don't forget the fed reserve and all the jazz that goes with that.

Knowing what the tax rates were pre 71 almost makes the gold standard sound scary. Yeah more real wealth, lower inflation but damn if they let anyone keep it.

True, none of the problems we have today or then were due to tax cuts... however, todays tax cuts are adding to problems with the way things currently operate.

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TheDoc

Last I heard the rate in July was 9.7 and had hit 9.2% in Sept and held it in Oct, even though we added 150k jobs. 150k added is a net gain, but in the ratio of millions of jobs lost overall, it's a tiny gain. But that doesn't mean it isn't good. %'s really make no difference (most of those jobs will never return) we've dropped this year either way and increased jobs... not bad at all.


edit: went and looked, it is 9.6 - either way, point was it has dropped and net jobs have gone up. It's not huge, but anyone expecting it to be at this point, when some jobs are gone forever, would be crazy.

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Ethersync

Tax cuts or not we are fucked.

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TheDoc

Seems that way.

Even if the fed, state, local stops spending all money and all taxes stay the same and went to pay that off our debts, we're looking at 5 years. With a total shut down Country for 5 years...which probably isn't a good thing.

So yeah, pretty fucked..

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Ethersync

It's crazy government math is what it is. They announce positive sounding numbers to get headlines and then revise them down later when no one is paying attention to the old numbers and only focused on the new numbers. It's also not an accident that unemployment has not hit 10% yet. It's not palatable to have double digit unemployment so they fudge the numbers down. Shadow Stats puts real unemployment well over 20%: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate...loyment-charts

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TheDoc

I really don't keep up with the %'s much... I'm sure the numbers are much higher than the gov projects though.

For me, jobs going up or down, really don't tell me how good things are doing. Jobs really are the last thing to return in big economic downturns, so even looking at this year or from our peak to now - is truly too short of a period of time.

For me, the day we can say the average wage across the Country has increased is the day we can celebrate a true positive change for the Countries economy.

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Vendzilla

yes, there was gains, but we are still losing jobs

The advance number of actual initial claims under state programs, unadjusted, totaled 419,351 in the week ending Oct. 30, an increase of 10,881 from the previous week. There were 482,612 initial claims in the comparable week in 2009

http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/e...ta20101516.htm

Just a slower pace, so forgive me if I dont get all excited

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

tony286

If it wasnt for taxes that paid for the gov funds given for the creation of the net. Most here wouldnt have worry about being in a higher bracket .

GatorB

when you learn what the un-employment rate actually means let me know. You do realize that umeployment rate could actually go up to 10% but we could add 250,000 jobs in the same month. We could lose jobs and the unemployment rate could actually go down in the same month also.

Some dude working at MCdonald's lsoes his job but he for whatever reason doesn't file for unemployment, guess what, he doesn't get counted as unemployed. An unemployed guy that wasn't getting unemplyment gets a job has ZERO efect on the unemployment figure. WHY? Because he wasn't counted as being unempoyed in the first place.

I suspect you're the kind of person that when you see a 7 point spread on a football game actually thinks that is what the odds makers think that one team will beat the other by.

TheDoc

Jobs don't have to be growing at all for the Economy to be improving.... normally when jobs can grow, even a little, it means the Economy is doing much better.

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Vendzilla

When it grows a little, I'll be happy, right now, we are losing less

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

I'd still be working on high rise buildings, which were government funds from Reagon when I did that

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

Don't strain your little brain trying to spin the unemplyment rate as being good

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

TheDoc

The 150k is a net gain in jobs, after losses.... we aren't losing right now and overall haven't for the last year. Overall we've taken a positive gain in jobs available.

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Ethersync

It's also worth mentioning that US manufacturing output blew past the UK in 1890 and we never looked back. In fact 1870s and 1880s we experienced our fastest economic growth rates ever.

1865 to 1900 is referred to as the Gilded Age and this economic boom time is what made America America. During this time there were a number of short recessions, 1 depression and huge numbers of banks and railroads went bankrupt. This was a time with no government bailouts of anyone and no Federal Reserve and not only did we recover quickly we had our greatest time of real economic growth ever. Oh, did I mention there was also no income tax during this time?

Now governments prevent the liquidation of malinvestment under the guise of helping us and in reality prolong the agony and worsen the problem.

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TheDoc

Cali Gold rush: 1848–1855 - Overall Gold rush lasted almost 100 years, from early 1800's to early 1900's.

Mad fraud took place, fake gold/money was a huge issue, bank bonds failed and people lost everything they had/owned including property, no standard of trade, one bank/person wouldn't take another persons/banks note, lots of issues took place during these times. Besides getting shot in the street for looking at a man wrong.

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Vendzilla

they are boasting 159k new jobs
New Unemployment claims are 450K
Sorry, I don't understand your math

It's going to be hard to put a positive spin on an unemployment rate that hasn't moved for over a year

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Ethersync

Well, it wasn't called the Wild West for nothing Hell, California was not even a state until a couple years into the Gold Rush. There were gold rushes all over the world during this time and before and after this time. Anyways, what's your point?

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TheDoc

They are boasting 150k "net" added jobs... not total new jobs added.

The unemployment rate has dropped in the last year.

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TheDoc

It was America's gold rush that sparked that economic boom. It was the same situation before the big rush, and people weren't sitting pretty or being taxed.

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Ethersync

It it not so simple, but let's get to the point: Do you think that if there was an income tax back then and more government regulation it would have meant greater economic growth?

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directfiesta

Did I read right ??? Title is about BUSH taxes, right ... ? Just checking ....

.. but he did send you a " stimulus " check of 600.00 or so ? ( added to the deficit ).
Didn't hear the baggers and fiscally responsable conservatives complain on this board ...

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I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

TheDoc

That's hard to say... with today's standards it would be a mess. But back then when banks did get regulated and a standard exchange was made, it greatly helped.

We had taxes back then, sales and others...including income, just income went on and off, so yes in some ways they did help.

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Ethersync

Well, I complained about it and a lot of people I know did as well. Please don't lump us all together. Just because someone does not like what Obama is doing it does not mean they like what Bush did

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Ethersync

There was a tax of 3% only on income over $20,000 (modern equivalent) in 1861 to pay for the Civil War. The rate changed slightly a year later and it ended altogether in 1866. So, yes for only the first year of the date range I gave there was an income tax of between 0% and 5% depending on income. Then in 1894 there was a 2% tax on income over ~$80,000 (modern equivalent) after the panic of 1893. The panic of 1893 was largely, if not entirely, caused by the Sherman Silver Purchase Act, which was an attempt by the US government to inflate the value of silver since the market was flooded with it, and the McKinley Tariff which put a near 50% import tax on good brought into the US. The huge supply of newly printed silver notes were used by people to exchange for gold notes causing the US government to run out of gold. Then the shit hit the fan until, I believe it was, JP Morgan bailed out the US Government with a gold loan. So, I misspoke when I said the government did not try to do stupid shit back then. They did in the 1890s, but thankfully they were limited in the damage they could do unlike now.

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GatorB

By the way McKinley was a republican.

Barry-xlovecam

Ethersync

So what? I'm not a Republican and I'm not loyal to any party.

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12clicks

Haha, I was reading thru thismornings bullshit and almost replied to tony404's idiot statement but then I saw this one.

I love guys who aren't smart enough to figure out what's happening currently retailing history like no one will notice.

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12clicks

If only the likes of you were forced to pay your fair share......

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TheDoc

What?

Go read some freakin history man, wow... the gold rush created a huge movement of people, it created an entire new economy of people buying everything they needed, new banks/cities created, more people with time to invent, money to buy supplies, it created new technology, new wealth, new business... this all sparked investments in companies, bonds, which exploded in growth with industrial growth and a ton of other crap. It funded/created the need for the railway system across the Country, which laid out communication's across the Country. The 1800's industrial growth, spiked, after the main gold rush. Gold supplied our eco during the 1800's, it rebuilt us, the rush's helped greatly in tons of ways - and bad in many as well.

Bah... just the fact that it moved people, is reason alone.

Now.... would you like to actually inject with some knowledge or do we get blessed with more morning coffee spit up?

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seeandsee

when will this shit colapse?

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PornoMonster

Rasing or Lowering Taaxes is Not the issue we should be looking at. It is all the stupid spending, bad programs, Political people on Both sides.