Evil Obamacare starts tomorrow

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  • The Demon
    Confirmed User
    • Apr 2003
    • 7336
    #151
    Robbie asked for the screenshots, AFTER he made that statement, not before.

    Overall I would rate your misdirection attempt at a C- and your denial at 100%.
    Hence denial and misdirection
    Making fun of a retarded parrot is easy, especially when he has to lie about something on the exact same page

    Greed is Good

      Comment

      • TheDoc
        Too lazy to set a custom title
        • Jul 2001
        • 13827
        #152
        Post# 120

        Originally posted by Robbie
        Okay, downloaded it. And it's a .png

        Unfortunately you didn't crop the screenshot before you downsized it. So it's so tiny you can't make out the figures. When you try to enlarge it they pixelate and turn to shit.

        Best I can tell...you've made 60 grand this year?

        Is that correct?.

        Post# 121

        Originally posted by Robbie
        First you take the screenshot.
        Then you crop it down so it's not 90% your desktop.
        Then you resize it
        THEN you upload it to your own server and link it as an image here on the forum.
        Denial and Misdirection?
        ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
        It's all disambiguation

          Comment

          • AmeliaG
            Too lazy to set a custom title
            • Jan 2003
            • 10663
            #153
            Originally posted by TheDoc
            Yeah, that's the point... get people insurance that can't otherwise have it. So roughly 45 million people without insurance and something like 60 million people yearly with gaps in insurance, making premiums go up, etc - is a small percentage?

            Nothing in the bill will force my company out of any healthcare it has and if more people are paying in, the costs would go down, not up. Like it does in every Country in the world that does this.

            Taxed? It's the same way as now.

            So I'm trading slave owners is what you're saying? Because without question the current insurance/health setup is Slavery that I have to pay for as well.
            I've never found that my government-mandated car insurance is there when I've needed it.

            I don't have health insurance and I find healthcare -- even including major events -- is less expensive than putting some insurance middleman in the middle. Add a middleman and raise the price of the product. It is basic business math.

            I would have favored genuine universal healthcare, but it is not okay to have the government forcing me to buy more obnoxious and undependable insurance I will have to fight with when I am least able.
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              • Argos88
                So Fucking Banned
                • Sep 2009
                • 1732
                #154
                cant believe a thread in 2010's GFY got 4 pages in 1 day....

                amazing...

                maybe the epass drama re-activated old LURKERS to post more....

                .

                  Comment

                  • Robbie
                    Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 20960
                    #155
                    Originally posted by AmeliaG
                    I've never found that my government-mandated car insurance is there when I've needed it.
                    Ain't that the truth! I won't even USE my insurance on my cars. Claudia was backing out of the garage about 4 months ago and wasn't paying attention and took off the entire passenger side front fender of her Corvette.

                    I paid for that out of pocket even though I have full coverage on the car. I can't afford to have the premium raised yet AGAIN (they seem to raise them constantly over the years)

                    So my car insurance is pretty much a waste of money EXCEPT for the chance that I might be involved in a horrific accident that involves another person.

                    But as far as fender benders that don't involve another person? Forget about it. You're better off reaching in your pocket.

                    And oh, by the way. Guess what? When you pay for it yourself out of pocket? The price to repair it is "suddenly" about 1/3 of what the price was with insurance. Sound familiar?
                    -Robbie
                    ClaudiaMarie.Com

                      Comment

                      • directfiesta
                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                        • Oct 2002
                        • 30136
                        #156
                        Originally posted by TheDoc
                        Hahaha, now it was a teenager ...

                        So in less than 7 years, you've graduated highschool, went and college, made 300k in the only two years directly after college, quit that job and enrolled in law shcool.

                        Anyone else need any waders?
                        .. and if I recall became an expert in mafia history ...
                        I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

                        But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

                          Comment

                          • TheDoc
                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                            • Jul 2001
                            • 13827
                            #157
                            Originally posted by AmeliaG
                            I've never found that my government-mandated car insurance is there when I've needed it.
                            Oh I've used ours a ton... so glad we have it.

                            Originally posted by AmeliaG
                            I don't have health insurance and I find healthcare -- even including major events -- is less expensive than putting some insurance middleman in the middle. Add a middleman and raise the price of the product. It is basic business math.
                            At our own costs, non corporate insurance in this house would be $3,000 a month per person, pills would be more than most peoples car payments. Pre-existing conditions do that.

                            Originally posted by AmeliaG
                            I would have favored genuine universal healthcare, but it is not okay to have the government forcing me to buy more obnoxious and undependable insurance I will have to fight with when I am least able.
                            The more people that buy into insurance the cheaper it gets...
                            ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                            It's all disambiguation

                              Comment

                              • TheDoc
                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                • Jul 2001
                                • 13827
                                #158
                                Originally posted by directfiesta
                                .. and if I recall became an expert in mafia history ...
                                Hahaha.... it keeps getting deeper and deeper.
                                ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                It's all disambiguation

                                  Comment

                                  • gumdrop
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Feb 2005
                                    • 482
                                    #159
                                    Originally posted by Robbie
                                    That's the way it was here in this country when I was growing up.
                                    Then McDonald's and the Big Mac came along...
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                                      • charlie g
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Aug 2006
                                        • 2759
                                        #160
                                        Originally posted by Robbie
                                        It amazes me how much things have changed in my lifetime.

                                        Up until about 20 years ago, not very many people even had "health insurance" And if you did it was to cover you in case you got in a car wreck or needed a very, very expensive surgery (Like if you had a heart attack and needed a bypass surgery)

                                        I always went to the doctor and...wait, you're not gonna believe this...PAID him with MONEY.
                                        You know, the way everybody always did.

                                        But these days? People have been conditioned to think that they CAN'T go to the freakin' doctor unless they have "insurance".

                                        Oh...only a govt. law will allow you to go to the doctor of your choice? WTF?!?!?

                                        Last I checked, I can pick up the phone...call any doctor in town, drive over and be seen and simply PAY him when I leave.

                                        That's the power the govt. and insurance companies now have over people. Folks honestly believe that their very actions are controlled by insurance companies.

                                        The REAL "healthcare" issue that has not been addressed is of course the FACT that we pay more for our healthcare in this country than ANY other nation.

                                        Claudia had an appendectomy 2 years ago. Cost? TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! WTF!?!?!?!?!?

                                        We pay 10 x more for every procedure and every prescription medication while the insurance companies hold hands with the govt. to make damn sure we do.

                                        No Republican or Democrat is even trying to change that. They are all getting too much money from the pharmaceutical and medical lobbyists.

                                        "Health Care" shouldn't be about forcing every man, woman, and child to now pay for insurance (I still can't believe the atrocity of that...can you imagine if you owned a business that it became LAW that everyone had to buy your product?)...it should be about stopping the price gouging on Americans so we don't NEED insurance just to go to the fucking doctor.
                                        This
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                                        -------------------------------

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                                          • Robbie
                                            Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                            • Aug 2002
                                            • 20960
                                            #161
                                            Originally posted by gumdrop
                                            Then McDonald's and the Big Mac came along...
                                            McDonalds was already here. lol

                                            And I came from Central Florida. We didn't need fast food to kill ourselves. EVERYTHING was deep fried in Crisco.

                                            Bad nutrition didn't start when fast food restaurants came out. And they aren't the reason our country pays more than everybody else either.
                                            There is a McDonalds in every country I've ever visited.
                                            -Robbie
                                            ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                              Comment

                                              • gumdrop
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Feb 2005
                                                • 482
                                                #162
                                                Originally posted by Robbie
                                                McDonalds was already here. lol

                                                And I came from Central Florida. We didn't need fast food to kill ourselves. EVERYTHING was deep fried in Crisco.

                                                Bad nutrition didn't start when fast food restaurants came out. And they aren't the reason our country pays more than everybody else either.
                                                There is a McDonalds in every country I've ever visited.
                                                Interesting rational...at least food that you say put in Crisco was fresh. Many cultures use cooking oil.

                                                Fast food is highly processed, industrially prepared. It's all about flavor or consistency and not freshness.

                                                It's all about salt, fat and "meat" extracts.
                                                Fast food consumption has been shown to increase calorie intake, promote weight gain, and elevate risk for diabetes.
                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ludwig

                                                I'd rather have moms fried chicken than chicken McNuggets..thank-you very much.
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                                                  • AmeliaG
                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                    • 10663
                                                    #163
                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                    Oh I've used ours a ton... so glad we have it.



                                                    At our own costs, non corporate insurance in this house would be $3,000 a month per person, pills would be more than most peoples car payments. Pre-existing conditions do that.



                                                    The more people that buy into insurance the cheaper it gets...

                                                    As Robbie said above, fix a fender yourself and your price is far less than if you go through insurance. And, if you go through insurance, they raise your rates. Isn't your car insurance a horrible rate now, if you've used it a lot?

                                                    The only way rates go down with more people buying into insurance is if we had a truly socialized plan where everyone paid into the same one. That is only if administered well, but let's assume it could be.

                                                    Just forcing people like me to buy more insurance which won't be there when I need it, unless, in the middle of something awful, I have what it takes to fight them . . . that is just more corporate welfare for the insurance companies.

                                                    If we didn't have the insurance system, your pills would cost a more reasonable amount. The pharmaceutical companies only jack the prices up because, although most individuals would not pay that, their insurance company pals will because the insurance companies are invested in you thinking you need them. I guarantee that, whatever prescriptions you need, they are available at lower prices in other countries.
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                                                      • Robbie
                                                        Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                        • 20960
                                                        #164
                                                        Originally posted by gumdrop
                                                        Interesting rational...at least food that you say put in Crisco was fresh. Many cultures use cooking oil.

                                                        Fast food is highly processed, industrially prepared. It's all about flavor or consistency and not freshness.

                                                        It's all about salt, fat and "meat" extracts.
                                                        Fast food consumption has been shown to increase calorie intake, promote weight gain, and elevate risk for diabetes.
                                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ludwig

                                                        I'd rather have moms fried chicken than chicken McNuggets..thank-you very much.
                                                        It wasn't "cooking oil" it was "lard" or "grease" that you buy in small barrel looking containers. And ALL southern food is chock full of salt. Trust me my friend. It's ALWAYS been heartattack central down there.
                                                        -Robbie
                                                        ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                          • AmeliaG
                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                            • 10663
                                                            #165
                                                            Originally posted by Robbie
                                                            It amazes me how much things have changed in my lifetime.

                                                            Up until about 20 years ago, not very many people even had "health insurance" And if you did it was to cover you in case you got in a car wreck or needed a very, very expensive surgery (Like if you had a heart attack and needed a bypass surgery)

                                                            I always went to the doctor and...wait, you're not gonna believe this...PAID him with MONEY.
                                                            You know, the way everybody always did.

                                                            But these days? People have been conditioned to think that they CAN'T go to the freakin' doctor unless they have "insurance".

                                                            Oh...only a govt. law will allow you to go to the doctor of your choice? WTF?!?!?

                                                            Last I checked, I can pick up the phone...call any doctor in town, drive over and be seen and simply PAY him when I leave.

                                                            That's the power the govt. and insurance companies now have over people. Folks honestly believe that their very actions are controlled by insurance companies.

                                                            The REAL "healthcare" issue that has not been addressed is of course the FACT that we pay more for our healthcare in this country than ANY other nation.

                                                            Claudia had an appendectomy 2 years ago. Cost? TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! WTF!?!?!?!?!?

                                                            We pay 10 x more for every procedure and every prescription medication while the insurance companies hold hands with the govt. to make damn sure we do.

                                                            No Republican or Democrat is even trying to change that. They are all getting too much money from the pharmaceutical and medical lobbyists.

                                                            "Health Care" shouldn't be about forcing every man, woman, and child to now pay for insurance (I still can't believe the atrocity of that...can you imagine if you owned a business that it became LAW that everyone had to buy your product?)...it should be about stopping the price gouging on Americans so we don't NEED insurance just to go to the fucking doctor.
                                                            Can I just give you an amen here.

                                                            I can't even count how many people I've taught how to go to a doctor and just get something simple like antibiotics. They think they need to have thousands of dollars a year and a corporate job just to, for example, get antibiotics when they get pneumonia. Even though actual care for that is likely to be under $200 total including prescriptions.
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                                                              • Robbie
                                                                Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                • Aug 2002
                                                                • 20960
                                                                #166
                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                Can I just give you an amen here.

                                                                I can't even count how many people I've taught how to go to a doctor and just get something simple like antibiotics. They think they need to have thousands of dollars a year and a corporate job just to, for example, get antibiotics when they get pneumonia. Even though actual care for that is likely to be under $200 total including prescriptions.
                                                                It's unreal. Insurance used to "insure" against a catastrophe. But now the general population is conditioned to think you are supposed to use it when you stub your toe. Every doctor visit, every prescription. That is what gives them the power over people.
                                                                -Robbie
                                                                ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                  • Coup
                                                                    🚨 PBBC International 🚨
                                                                    • Apr 2010
                                                                    • 9931
                                                                    #167
                                                                    Running a health insurance company on a for-profit basis should be banned. I think that alone would have a massive impact on prices and make it much more affordable. The more affordable it is the more people would buy it. Helping to drive health care prices down even further.
                                                                    Last edited by Coup; 09-22-2010, 07:02 PM.

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                                                                      • TheDoc
                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                        • Jul 2001
                                                                        • 13827
                                                                        #168
                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                        As Robbie said above, fix a fender yourself and your price is far less than if you go through insurance. And, if you go through insurance, they raise your rates. Isn't your car insurance a horrible rate now, if you've used it a lot?
                                                                        This house has two totaled cars, one rental... and other things, my rate is cheaper right now than it was anytime when I wasn't married so I honestly don't notice.

                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                        The only way rates go down with more people buying into insurance is if we had a truly socialized plan where everyone paid into the same one. That is only if administered well, but let's assume it could be.
                                                                        Canadian Insurance isn't near as expensive as ours... Yes you can get health insurance in Canada. Competition does that.

                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                        Just forcing people like me to buy more insurance which won't be there when I need it, unless, in the middle of something awful, I have what it takes to fight them . . . that is just more corporate welfare for the insurance companies.
                                                                        Then don't buy more.

                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                        If we didn't have the insurance system, your pills would cost a more reasonable amount. The pharmaceutical companies only jack the prices up because, although most individuals would not pay that, their insurance company pals will because the insurance companies are invested in you thinking you need them. I guarantee that, whatever prescriptions you need, they are available at lower prices in other countries.
                                                                        That's possible... Which is why gov competition that can force the price is a good thing because forcing companies to downsize and lose all investments isn't going to happen. If the free market wants to keep charging more like they do with UPS/Fedex, then sweet but that doesn't mean the Gov can't provide a service as well.
                                                                        ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                        It's all disambiguation

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                                                                          • charlie g
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Aug 2006
                                                                            • 2759
                                                                            #169
                                                                            Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                            And we're right back to arguing "politics"

                                                                            Which is EXACTLY what the insurance and pharmaceutical companies want you to do.

                                                                            Not much different than the Roman gladiators or throwing people to the lions...just keep everybody distracted and arguing amongst themselves. Keep your eye on what I'm doing with this hand...but pay no attention to what I'm REALLY doing with the other.

                                                                            And "The Demon" (fucking stupid high school nicknames, you should all grow up and be men and use your real fucking names), calling him a "moron" is bullshit and you know it. And trying to justify it by saying "someone else did it first" fits right in with the high school b.s.

                                                                            I've met BFT3K, and like the majority of folks on here he is a very intelligent guy. He has his opinions based on HIS life experiences just like you and I do.

                                                                            You destroy your own argument in this debate the very second you start calling names. You go from being a serious part of a discussion, to being a troll instantly. Even if that wasn't your intention.


                                                                            We can't have true healthcare reform until there is true tort reform. Malpractice insurance is ridiculously expensive because there i no cap on rewards.

                                                                            Insurance companies gouge customers? I am aghast!

                                                                            Pharmaceuticals expensive in the US? Say it aint so!

                                                                            There are 3 key players to the healthcare COST crisis in the US. Trial lawyers, Insurance providers and the pharma s. And until the head i cut off of this three headed monster (CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM) Joe Public is going to continue to get fucked.

                                                                            You are right Robbie. This is not a democrat vs republican problem...they are both feeding at the trough. Do you think any politician from either party is going to kill these geese and their golden eggs? Fuck no. But they all play the blame game and pit the public against each other. It's fucking stupid, but from the posts on this board it is working.

                                                                            And one issue I vehemently oppose Ron Paul is campaign finance. Giving money to candidates can be considered freedom of speech. But when one man can only give $1 and another man can give $1,000,000, the voice of the poor man is muted. Corporations are not people, individuals. Since when should they be given free speech rights? Take the money out of Washington and common sense will come back.
                                                                            Last edited by charlie g; 09-22-2010, 07:41 PM.
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                                                                            -------------------------------

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                                                                              • 2MuchMark
                                                                                Mark of 2Much.net
                                                                                • Aug 2004
                                                                                • 50990
                                                                                #170
                                                                                You guys should really thank Obama...

                                                                                Since June I've been taking my Mom to the Hospital. She has both skin cancer and breast cancer. She's had operations, MRI's, Xrays, Cat Scans, Pills, minor operations, and been seen by 6 different specialists.

                                                                                She's getting GREAT care. We walk into the Hospital at 1pm, and we're out by 3:30pm. Waiting time is low, and attention to her is high.

                                                                                The cost? $0.00.
                                                                                The Insurance Premiums? $0.00.
                                                                                The medicine? $0.00
                                                                                The MRI's and other scans? $0.00

                                                                                The people of the United States have been fucked over for years by greedy non-regulated Insurance companies. You should count your lucky Stars that Obama is putting an end to it before you get sick.

                                                                                Good luck - don't let the Teabaggers ruin a great start to a better future.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Robbie
                                                                                    Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                    • Aug 2002
                                                                                    • 20960
                                                                                    #171
                                                                                    Originally posted by MarkPrince
                                                                                    Since June I've been taking my Mom to the Hospital. She has both skin cancer and breast cancer. She's had operations, MRI's, Xrays, Cat Scans, Pills, minor operations, and been seen by 6 different specialists.
                                                                                    Best wishes for your mom. That's rough, but she sounds like a tough lady.
                                                                                    -Robbie
                                                                                    ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                      • Jaeger
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Sep 2003
                                                                                        • 567
                                                                                        #172
                                                                                        you guys should have had health reforms years ago... its so freaking important i dont see how anyone could argue against it with any form of coherent logic.

                                                                                        Makes me happy im in Australia land of free and good medical everything.
                                                                                        been in this industry since 2002.. gettin' too old for this shit..

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Robbie
                                                                                            Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                            • Aug 2002
                                                                                            • 20960
                                                                                            #173
                                                                                            Originally posted by Jaeger
                                                                                            you guys should have had health reforms years ago... its so freaking important i dont see how anyone could argue against it with any form of coherent logic.

                                                                                            Makes me happy im in Australia land of free and good medical everything.
                                                                                            Like I said earlier...up until the 1990's we really didn't need it. And we still aren't getting any reform anyway.

                                                                                            If you guys in Australia were getting fucked by the pharmaceutical companies, medical industry, and insurance companies with jacked up prices like we have...you wouldn't be able to afford health care either.

                                                                                            The simplest procedures here in the U.S. run tens of thousands of dollars. It's a huge money grab.
                                                                                            -Robbie
                                                                                            ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                              • AmeliaG
                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                • Jan 2003
                                                                                                • 10663
                                                                                                #174
                                                                                                Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                Then don't buy more.

                                                                                                I don't want to buy more insurance. I already waste money every year on car insurance. I can't afford to be sending more big businesses charity donations in this economy.

                                                                                                The problem is that our new healthcare bill has nothing to do with healthcare and is just subsidizing the insurance industry by forcing me to buy more insurance on top of the money I already throw out for car insurance.

                                                                                                If we had real healthcare reform, how about making it tax deductible for a business to pay for surgery if a worker needs it? That is only at most half tax deductible, but buying that same worker health insurance is 100%.

                                                                                                Don't you think it makes more sense to give money to a surgeon when you have a problem than a paper pusher whose job depends on rejecting a certain portion of claims?

                                                                                                I know someone who has health insurance, whose wife recently died, and the insurance company apparently routinely rejects 10% of medical costs in such cases because they know most grieving spouses won't take legal action before the statute of limitations runs out.
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                                                                                                  • AmeliaG
                                                                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                                                                    • 10663
                                                                                                    #175
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Jaeger
                                                                                                    you guys should have had health reforms years ago... its so freaking important i dont see how anyone could argue against it with any form of coherent logic.

                                                                                                    Makes me happy im in Australia land of free and good medical everything.

                                                                                                    The insurance companies are what messed the cost of medical care in America. Not to mention the quality.

                                                                                                    If you go to the hospital, they treat you like you are a criminal in jail, limiting when your loved ones can see you and who they count as family and suchlike. Name one other industry where you will be treated like that, while handing someone $40,000. The reason the hospitals in the USA can do that is because the insurance company is the customer and not you.
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                                                                                                      • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                        There can be only one
                                                                                                        • Aug 2001
                                                                                                        • 39075
                                                                                                        #176
                                                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                        The insurance companies are what messed the cost of medical care in America. Not to mention the quality.

                                                                                                        If you go to the hospital, they treat you like you are a criminal in jail, limiting when your loved ones can see you and who they count as family and suchlike. Name one other industry where you will be treated like that, while handing someone $40,000. The reason the hospitals in the USA can do that is because the insurance company is the customer and not you.
                                                                                                        don't forget the pharma companies too.
                                                                                                        SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                          • AmeliaG
                                                                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                                                                            • 10663
                                                                                                            #177
                                                                                                            Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                            don't forget the pharma companies too.
                                                                                                            I kind of think big pharma is exploiting what the insurance companies set up. I see their inflated prices as an unpleasant byproduct of the insurance middlemen underlying problem.
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                                                                                                              • TheDoc
                                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                • 13827
                                                                                                                #178
                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                I don't want to buy more insurance. I already waste money every year on car insurance. I can't afford to be sending more big businesses charity donations in this economy.

                                                                                                                The problem is that our new healthcare bill has nothing to do with healthcare and is just subsidizing the insurance industry by forcing me to buy more insurance on top of the money I already throw out for car insurance.

                                                                                                                If we had real healthcare reform, how about making it tax deductible for a business to pay for surgery if a worker needs it? That is only at most half tax deductible, but buying that same worker health insurance is 100%.

                                                                                                                Don't you think it makes more sense to give money to a surgeon when you have a problem than a paper pusher whose job depends on rejecting a certain portion of claims?

                                                                                                                I know someone who has health insurance, whose wife recently died, and the insurance company apparently routinely rejects 10% of medical costs in such cases because they know most grieving spouses won't take legal action before the statute of limitations runs out.
                                                                                                                If you really feel your car insurance isn't worth it, if your car is paid off go buy limited insurance for some stupid low price. Nobody is forcing you to pay premium rates unless you don't own your car, then it's logical, it's not yours.

                                                                                                                The healthcare bill provides healthcare. I don't care who is dishing it out.

                                                                                                                Before the healthcare bill we had nothing... after it, we have something. Expecting it to be perfect, is insane. But getting our foot in the door isn't. Now that we have a healthcare system, everyone, you me, dem/rep, etc should be working to improve it, not stop it.

                                                                                                                When I see others not willing to give up a small bit of money to help fellow Americans I truly think the people disgust me. I'm willing to die for my Country protecting its people & you people aren't willing to give up some stupid ass money that is completely pointless shit to help out?

                                                                                                                This is the problem with America & Americans.... Greed.
                                                                                                                ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
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                                                                                                                  • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                    There can be only one
                                                                                                                    • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                    • 39075
                                                                                                                    #179
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc

                                                                                                                    This is the problem with America & Americans.... Greed.
                                                                                                                    it is but one of the many problems humans have.
                                                                                                                    SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                                      • Robbie
                                                                                                                        Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                        • 20960
                                                                                                                        #180
                                                                                                                        Yeah, don't forget the opposite of greed:

                                                                                                                        Laziness.

                                                                                                                        Before I moved here to Vegas I lived in South Carolina in the upstate section. One block over from my old house was a neighborhood full of white trash.

                                                                                                                        Nothing but 30 somethings still living with their parents, up all night walking the streets (they didn't own cars and the cops told me it was a meth paradise) and refusing to work.

                                                                                                                        Those guys were all getting govt. assistance checks in some form or another and would work the "flea market" on the weekend for extra cash that they didn't have to report so they wouldn't stop getting their "welfare" checks.

                                                                                                                        Disgusting. Give me greed over that shit any day of the week.

                                                                                                                        And I'm not just singling out South Carolina. I'm just saying that I interacted with those sacks of shit personally there. (mostly running them off my property as my yard was 3 acres)

                                                                                                                        I also saw the same shit when I lived in Ft. Lauderdale and Atlanta. And I see it here in Vegas too. And everywhere I traveled with my bands. There was always some out of work, living off the govt. check, piece of shit at the clubs who somehow had the extra money for his cigs and beer.
                                                                                                                        -Robbie
                                                                                                                        ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                                                          • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                            There can be only one
                                                                                                                            • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                            • 39075
                                                                                                                            #181
                                                                                                                            Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                            Yeah, don't forget the opposite of greed:

                                                                                                                            Laziness.

                                                                                                                            Before I moved here to Vegas I lived in South Carolina in the upstate section. One block over from my old house was a neighborhood full of white trash.

                                                                                                                            Nothing but 30 somethings still living with their parents, up all night walking the streets (they didn't own cars and the cops told me it was a meth paradise) and refusing to work.

                                                                                                                            Those guys were all getting govt. assistance checks in some form or another and would work the "flea market" on the weekend for extra cash that they didn't have to report so they wouldn't stop getting their "welfare" checks.

                                                                                                                            Disgusting. Give me greed over that shit any day of the week.

                                                                                                                            And I'm not just singling out South Carolina. I'm just saying that I interacted with those sacks of shit personally there. (mostly running them off my property as my yard was 3 acres)

                                                                                                                            I also saw the same shit when I lived in Ft. Lauderdale and Atlanta. And I see it here in Vegas too. And everywhere I traveled with my bands. There was always some out of work, living off the govt. check, piece of shit at the clubs who somehow had the extra money for his cigs and beer.
                                                                                                                            how is that any different than what you are doing?

                                                                                                                            they are living off the government tit.
                                                                                                                            you are living off what the government allows you to keep.

                                                                                                                            difference = you are working to pay for your own slavery.






                                                                                                                            SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                                              • AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                • 10663
                                                                                                                                #182
                                                                                                                                Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                If you really feel your car insurance isn't worth it, if your car is paid off go buy limited insurance for some stupid low price. Nobody is forcing you to pay premium rates unless you don't own your car, then it's logical, it's not yours.

                                                                                                                                The healthcare bill provides healthcare. I don't care who is dishing it out.

                                                                                                                                Before the healthcare bill we had nothing... after it, we have something. Expecting it to be perfect, is insane. But getting our foot in the door isn't. Now that we have a healthcare system, everyone, you me, dem/rep, etc should be working to improve it, not stop it.

                                                                                                                                When I see others not willing to give up a small bit of money to help fellow Americans I truly think the people disgust me. I'm willing to die for my Country protecting its people & you people aren't willing to give up some stupid ass money that is completely pointless shit to help out?

                                                                                                                                This is the problem with America & Americans.... Greed.

                                                                                                                                I am one of the millions of uninsured people this bill is supposed to help.

                                                                                                                                Before the healthcare bill, I could pay for medical care when I or my family need it.

                                                                                                                                If the healthcare bill goes into effect, I will be forced to pay for insurance and forced to add a middleman markup to my healthcare. Now, if insurance doesn't want to pay for a second opinion, for example, I would have already spent the money for the second opinion and then some, but I would not be permitted to spend my money on the healthcare I choose.

                                                                                                                                Please explain to me what I have gained.

                                                                                                                                We do not have a healthcare system. I would support a healthcare system. This is just more insurance company bailout corporate welfare -- moving money from individuals and small business into the pockets of Wall Street.

                                                                                                                                If car insurance or health insurance works for you, I think you should have the freedom to buy their products. I have had bad experiences. Maybe you are so paid that liability-only car insurance is a total drop in the bucket. Please explain to me why I should be forced to buy products from insurance big businesses which sell the service of peace of mind, followed generally by trying to weasel out of covering actual need?

                                                                                                                                Additionally, because insurance companies play the market with your premiums, they drive up stock prices and, the more money they have to play with, the more they can mess with our already decimated economy.
                                                                                                                                Last edited by AmeliaG; 09-23-2010, 11:22 AM.
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                                                                                                                                  • Phoenix66
                                                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                    • 823
                                                                                                                                    #183
                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by MarkPrince
                                                                                                                                    The people of the United States have been fucked over for years by greedy non-regulated Insurance companies. You should count your lucky Stars that Obama is putting an end to it before you get sick.
                                                                                                                                    Is that what Obama and his sidekicks tell you? That insurance companies are NOT regulated? Get real. USA economy is regulated. The fact that it's less regulated than many other countries does not mean it's not regulated at all. It's on 8th place here http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx and get score of 78. But guess what? Sweden which is often mentioned as an example of working Socialism has a score of 72.4. Does not seem like a long way from socialism. And socialism means almost total control over economy and personal life. Trust me, I was born in USSR. I know this shit well.

                                                                                                                                    Now that was rather general. Just go to google, enter "USA insurance companies regulations" and enjoy multiple laws, acts and commissions that supervise the work of Insurance companies. Unregulated my ass.

                                                                                                                                    US prices go up exactly because the economy is regulated. You can actually track how they were rising with each new regulation. And you suggest to get it more regulated in order to correct this? Way to go. Good luck with it.
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                                                                                                                                      • Phoenix66
                                                                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                        • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                        • 823
                                                                                                                                        #184
                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                        When I see others not willing to give up a small bit of money to help fellow Americans I truly think the people disgust me. I'm willing to die for my Country protecting its people & you people aren't willing to give up some stupid ass money that is completely pointless shit to help out?

                                                                                                                                        This is the problem with America & Americans.... Greed.
                                                                                                                                        May I ask you when was a last time you personally gave up some of your money to help someone? Did you feed a homeless or donated to orphanage? What right you have to decide that other people have to give up some of their wealth if they don't want to?

                                                                                                                                        You want to help others - just go and help them with your money, your time and your efforts. But you want to take from someone else instead hiding behind sophisticated morals. That's war communism. Several million people died from it. Because they felt morally justified to take from some people for the "greater good".
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                                                                                                                                          • Phoenix66
                                                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                            • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                            • 823
                                                                                                                                            #185
                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                            how is that any different than what you are doing?

                                                                                                                                            they are living off the government tit.
                                                                                                                                            you are living off what the government allows you to keep.

                                                                                                                                            difference = you are working to pay for your own slavery.
                                                                                                                                            This statement makes you slave. You just can't live without a thought that your entire life is controlled and belongs to someone. Can you?

                                                                                                                                            Government is not something godlike. It's a body of people. Usually stupid, greedy and egoistic, because better people get better occupations and just don't want to mess with that shit. And you gave up yourself to them completely in your thoughts.
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                                                                                                                                              • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                • 13827
                                                                                                                                                #186
                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Phoenix66
                                                                                                                                                May I ask you when was a last time you personally gave up some of your money to help someone? Did you feed a homeless or donated to orphanage? What right you have to decide that other people have to give up some of their wealth if they don't want to?

                                                                                                                                                You want to help others - just go and help them with your money, your time and your efforts. But you want to take from someone else instead hiding behind sophisticated morals. That's war communism. Several million people died from it. Because they felt morally justified to take from some people for the "greater good".
                                                                                                                                                Yes I donate money, I'm a American Legion and SAL member for Veterans and have been most of my life. No, but my wife has. Yes, I donate all the time to the SA & Goodwill, almost monthly. Donating a bed in a few days. I also take care of / pay all bills for an entire 2nd family because they have no choice.

                                                                                                                                                You already give up part of your wealth to help others and you give up a huge chunk of your wealth to produce wealth for others that provide the services you don't want to provide now. At that you give up your wealth to liberate and rebuild entire nations, trillions out the door.

                                                                                                                                                It's time American faces the facts and start working towards getting the money better used to help our Citizens that need it.

                                                                                                                                                You should want to help... it's not about helping the greater good, it's about helping America!
                                                                                                                                                ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                  • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                    • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                    • 13827
                                                                                                                                                    #187
                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                    I am one of the millions of uninsured people this bill is supposed to help.

                                                                                                                                                    Before the healthcare bill, I could pay for medical care when I or my family need it.

                                                                                                                                                    If the healthcare bill goes into effect, I will be forced to pay for insurance and forced to add a middleman markup to my healthcare. Now, if insurance doesn't want to pay for a second opinion, for example, I would have already spent the money for the second opinion and then some, but I would not be permitted to spend my money on the healthcare I choose.

                                                                                                                                                    Please explain to me what I have gained.

                                                                                                                                                    We do not have a healthcare system. I would support a healthcare system. This is just more insurance company bailout corporate welfare -- moving money from individuals and small business into the pockets of Wall Street.

                                                                                                                                                    If car insurance or health insurance works for you, I think you should have the freedom to buy their products. I have had bad experiences. Maybe you are so paid that liability-only car insurance is a total drop in the bucket. Please explain to me why I should be forced to buy products from insurance big businesses which sell the service of peace of mind, followed generally by trying to weasel out of covering actual need?

                                                                                                                                                    Additionally, because insurance companies play the market with your premiums, they drive up stock prices and, the more money they have to play with, the more they can mess with our already decimated economy.
                                                                                                                                                    That's sad, one mistake, bad wreck or unknown illness could bankrupt you overnight and put all that huge expensive directly on the tax payer dollar.

                                                                                                                                                    You can go get basic insurance for $25 a year for those medical centers you visit, it's like a free office visit and they work together so you can visit multiple doctors.

                                                                                                                                                    Would have gained not paying out of pocket for the first opinion. Or if something was wrong, it could have paid all your bills while you couldn't work, car, house, even the insurance bill.

                                                                                                                                                    Because every day people get killed, cars totaled, etc and people get sued over scratching up against cars let along hitting them. Without Insurance you're totally fucked if its your fault. With it, it's paid for and your life moves on. If you broke your back, kids got hurt, other people got hurt, it may not just be your bill, could be 10 others, 10 cars your paying for, funeral, and legal.

                                                                                                                                                    All of what you said is basically why we should be working to improve the law - not remove it.
                                                                                                                                                    ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                    It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                      • AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                        • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                        • 10663
                                                                                                                                                        #188
                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                        That's sad, one mistake, bad wreck or unknown illness could bankrupt you overnight and put all that huge expensive directly on the tax payer dollar.

                                                                                                                                                        You can go get basic insurance for $25 a year for those medical centers you visit, it's like a free office visit and they work together so you can visit multiple doctors.

                                                                                                                                                        Would have gained not paying out of pocket for the first opinion. Or if something was wrong, it could have paid all your bills while you couldn't work, car, house, even the insurance bill.

                                                                                                                                                        Because every day people get killed, cars totaled, etc and people get sued over scratching up against cars let along hitting them. Without Insurance you're totally fucked if its your fault. With it, it's paid for and your life moves on. If you broke your back, kids got hurt, other people got hurt, it may not just be your bill, could be 10 others, 10 cars your paying for, funeral, and legal.

                                                                                                                                                        All of what you said is basically why we should be working to improve the law - not remove it.

                                                                                                                                                        I'm not talking about theoretical insurance. I'm talking about insurance which exists.

                                                                                                                                                        Where do you live where there is any kind of health insurance for $25 a year, much less good health insurance?

                                                                                                                                                        What about the fact that car insurance, in my experience, whether it was mine or someone else's, always has found a way to not pay what is needed and raise the rates on anyone who needs help? How is mandated health insurance going to be better than mandated car insurance?

                                                                                                                                                        What about my schoolmate whose wife died where the insurance company took advantage of his grief to routinely deny 10% of her medical care, figuring a certain percentage of recent widowers will not take legal action before the statute runs out?

                                                                                                                                                        Lastly, how is asking the tax payer to pay for part or all of insurance for millions of people better than having the tax payer pay for the extremely rare bankrupting illness? The former is a bigger dollar number than the latter and forces a lot of middle class people to suddenly be on the dole.

                                                                                                                                                        Wouldn't it be better to let employers fully deduct medical care for their workers than fully deduct insurance? Or, heck, let employers pay their workers at the same tax level as they can line the insurance companies pockets? Or, if the idea is to, ya know help, get really buckwild, and have universal healthcare, not universal insurance company bailout?
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                                                                                                                                                          • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                            • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                            • 13827
                                                                                                                                                            #189
                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                            I'm not talking about theoretical insurance. I'm talking about insurance which exists.

                                                                                                                                                            Where do you live where there is any kind of health insurance for $25 a year, much less good health insurance?

                                                                                                                                                            What about the fact that car insurance, in my experience, whether it was mine or someone else's, always has found a way to not pay what is needed and raise the rates on anyone who needs help? How is mandated health insurance going to be better than mandated car insurance?

                                                                                                                                                            What about my schoolmate whose wife died where the insurance company took advantage of his grief to routinely deny 10% of her medical care, figuring a certain percentage of recent widowers will not take legal action before the statute runs out?

                                                                                                                                                            Lastly, how is asking the tax payer to pay for part or all of insurance for millions of people better than having the tax payer pay for the extremely rare bankrupting illness? The former is a bigger dollar number than the latter and forces a lot of middle class people to suddenly be on the dole.

                                                                                                                                                            Wouldn't it be better to let employers fully deduct medical care for their workers than fully deduct insurance? Or, heck, let employers pay their workers at the same tax level as they can line the insurance companies pockets? Or, if the idea is to, ya know help, get really buckwild, and have universal healthcare, not universal insurance company bailout?
                                                                                                                                                            Who said it was good? It's just that discount insurance crap you get for those health center places so you get more discounts. They aren't going to deny you, you're paying cash.

                                                                                                                                                            I haven't had that issue with car insurance.. I even had a car stolen in another Country and it was paid off and I got new car.

                                                                                                                                                            Your schoolmate could have paid full price.

                                                                                                                                                            How does any store, say walmart, reduce prices with volume? Leverage...

                                                                                                                                                            Those are things to fight to change in it, not reasons to get rid of it.
                                                                                                                                                            ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                            It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                              • gumdrop
                                                                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                • Feb 2005
                                                                                                                                                                • 482
                                                                                                                                                                #190
                                                                                                                                                                American Insurance Co.'s own shares in Fast Food Chains.

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                                                                                                                                                                  • AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                                    • 10663
                                                                                                                                                                    #191
                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                    Who said it was good? It's just that discount insurance crap you get for those health center places so you get more discounts. They aren't going to deny you, you're paying cash.

                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't had that issue with car insurance.. I even had a car stolen in another Country and it was paid off and I got new car.

                                                                                                                                                                    Your schoolmate could have paid full price.

                                                                                                                                                                    How does any store, say walmart, reduce prices with volume? Leverage...

                                                                                                                                                                    Those are things to fight to change in it, not reasons to get rid of it.

                                                                                                                                                                    Like Robbie, I go to the doctor, when I need care. I get to have frequent humiliating conversations, while admin assistants loudly ask me in the waiting room how I can not have insurance. But this also puts me in the position of having had the conversation about insurance with doctor after doctor. They all say that a significant amount of what they bill goes to pay full time staff to beg the insurance companies to pay what they promised. And they all pay late. How is getting more of that sort of insurance service helpful to the society or its citizens in any way?

                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know what you are talking about with health center places. In Southern California, there are urgent care centers where they can often provide the same service as an emergency room, for a dollar amount people can afford. Is that what you are referring to?

                                                                                                                                                                    I also still don't know what you are talking about with $25 health insurance. The health insurance this insurance industry bailout bill will mandate is going to be many thousands of dollars a year. What are you referring to?

                                                                                                                                                                    I have had extremely bad experiences with car insurance. That is great that you have been fortunate and had them be there for you in bad situations. If you want their products, you should be free to buy them.

                                                                                                                                                                    Given the timeline, simple math shows my schoolmate whose wife died paid much more into the insurance system than his wife's cancer therapies cost. Yet the insurance company wants to make him have a fight over money, while he is grieving. Count me out for that service. How is that mathematically good for him to add stress to tragedy?
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                                                                                                                                                                      • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                        • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                                        • 13827
                                                                                                                                                                        #192
                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                        Like Robbie, I go to the doctor, when I need care. I get to have frequent humiliating conversations, while admin assistants loudly ask me in the waiting room how I can not have insurance. But this also puts me in the position of having had the conversation about insurance with doctor after doctor. They all say that a significant amount of what they bill goes to pay full time staff to beg the insurance companies to pay what they promised. And they all pay late. How is getting more of that sort of insurance service helpful to the society or its citizens in any way?
                                                                                                                                                                        I've paid cash for services before. It's about $8k or so to have a kid with State services helping you or it's $20k without any help. Which is roughly equal to 2.2 years of paying for insurance, just for the baby, without complications. To be put on the ventilator for 15 minutes is $1,800. Which is about half a year of paying insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                        I can't assume the insurance will be bad... the VA isn't heaven but when you're down and out, it's the best damn place on earth.

                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know what you are talking about with health center places. In Southern California, there are urgent care centers where they can often provide the same service as an emergency room, for a dollar amount people can afford. Is that what you are referring to?

                                                                                                                                                                        I also still don't know what you are talking about with $25 health insurance. The health insurance this insurance industry bailout bill will mandate is going to be many thousands of dollars a year. What are you referring to?
                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, many of those offer discount insurance services, that connect to blood work services, the visit, etc. It's insurance, but like liability and not full coverage. Yes, normal insurance that covers the costs, costs more.

                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                        I have had extremely bad experiences with car insurance. That is great that you have been fortunate and had them be there for you in bad situations. If you want their products, you should be free to buy them.
                                                                                                                                                                        I've had issues with hosptials, cars, insurance, phone companies, hosts, etc.. I still use a host even though one completely fucked me over.

                                                                                                                                                                        If you want to drive on roads paid for by my tax dollars... you should have it for my protection then. If you don't care about yourself, then fine - might want to think of others though.

                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                        Given the timeline, simple math shows my schoolmate whose wife died paid much more into the insurance system than his wife's cancer therapies cost. Yet the insurance company wants to make him have a fight over money, while he is grieving. Count me out for that service. How is that mathematically good for him to add stress to tragedy?
                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry, I don't believe that, your friend was feeding you a load. Even if he paid $3k a month in insurance, it would still be cheaper than paying for cancer treatment yourself. And he has the freedom to ask how much, I do it all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                        Last edited by TheDoc; 09-23-2010, 09:34 PM.
                                                                                                                                                                        ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                                        It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                                          • AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                                            • 10663
                                                                                                                                                                            #193
                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                            I've paid cash for services before. It's about $8k or so to have a kid with State services helping you or it's $20k without any help. Which is roughly equal to 2.2 years of paying for insurance, just for the baby, without complications. To be put on the ventilator for 15 minutes is $1,800. Which is about half a year of paying insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                            I can't assume the insurance will be bad... the VA isn't heaven but when you're down and out, it's the best damn place on earth.



                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, many of those offer discount insurance services, that connect to blood work services, the visit, etc. It's insurance, but like liability and not full coverage. Yes, normal insurance that covers the costs, costs more.



                                                                                                                                                                            I've had issues with hosptials, cars, insurance, phone companies, hosts, etc.. I still use a host even though one completely fucked me over.

                                                                                                                                                                            If you want to drive on roads paid for by my tax dollars... you should have it for my protection then. If you don't care about yourself, then fine - might want to think of others though.



                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry, I don't believe that, your friend was feeding you a load. Even if he paid $3k a month in insurance, it would still be cheaper than paying for cancer treatment yourself. And he has the freedom to ask how much, I do it all the time.


                                                                                                                                                                            If you are a cash patient, most doctors will give you a cash price which is lower than insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                            If you need a $40k operation, you can go to Thailand and have it done for $8k, while staying in the equivalent of a four star hotel room your loved ones are welcome in, with a personal 24/7 nurse.

                                                                                                                                                                            Let me give you a more personal example. Someone close to me has cancer. She has had multiple bouts with it. For most of her adult life, she has had the fabulous government option insurance everyone talks about being so great. So, for decades, the government has paid thousands of dollars a year and she has paid thousands of dollars a year to insure her and her family. She tells me that she appreciated the peace of mind, but, looking at the total math, the insurance companies still came out ahead.

                                                                                                                                                                            The insurance company is the house and the house always wins. Insurance is a for-profit business. They want to take in more premiums than they pay out in claims. They want to gamble with your premiums in the market. And they want a government bailout, because you can't have insurance companies fail, if they lose your premium money in poor gambles.

                                                                                                                                                                            Look at your own math. If having a baby with insurance supported inflated prices is equal to about 2.2 years of paying premiums, how many babies would you have to have before your premiums far exceeded the cost of having the child? I think the security issue becomes more important with children involved, but, with all the insurance companies dropping coverage for children, in the wake of this awful piece of legislation, I surely don't think that end of the population is being helped.

                                                                                                                                                                            I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those medical costs are inflated by the existence of the insurance industry. Take out the middleman scaring you with his protection racket premium pricing and medical services will charge what people can afford. It is basic business that the market would have to right-price, if it were not so heavily assisted. Why do you think healthcare in America costs so much more than elsewhere?

                                                                                                                                                                            You don't seriously think there is a for-profit insurance plan out there where I could pay $25 a year, just in case I have a baby who needs to be on a ventilator at $1,800 a pop for every 15 minutes?
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                                                                                                                                                                              • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                • 13827
                                                                                                                                                                                #194
                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                If you are a cash patient, most doctors will give you a cash price which is lower than insurance.
                                                                                                                                                                                Most do, but not all and that's if the person can afford it at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                If you need a $40k operation, you can go to Thailand and have it done for $8k, while staying in the equivalent of a four star hotel room your loved ones are welcome in, with a personal 24/7 nurse.
                                                                                                                                                                                That's if you can get to Thailand.

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                Let me give you a more personal example. Someone close to me has cancer. She has had multiple bouts with it. For most of her adult life, she has had the fabulous government option insurance everyone talks about being so great. So, for decades, the government has paid thousands of dollars a year and she has paid thousands of dollars a year to insure her and her family. She tells me that she appreciated the peace of mind, but, looking at the total math, the insurance companies still came out ahead.
                                                                                                                                                                                It costs $5-$8k per chemo treatment alone and an upwards of $100k just for treatments. Before pills, hospital stay, therapy, etc. Cancer costs average $150k-$1m+. Just at 100k, that's 33 years of insurance payments just for chemo. This is all paying for it yourself, cash.

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                The insurance company is the house and the house always wins. Insurance is a for-profit business. They want to take in more premiums than they pay out in claims. They want to gamble with your premiums in the market. And they want a government bailout, because you can't have insurance companies fail, if they lose your premium money in poor gambles.
                                                                                                                                                                                Yes they are a for-profit business... which is why we should be pushing for regulation. AIG got a bailout, the rest don't own banks thus got nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                Look at your own math. If having a baby with insurance supported inflated prices is equal to about 2.2 years of paying premiums, how many babies would you have to have before your premiums far exceeded the cost of having the child? I think the security issue becomes more important with children involved, but, with all the insurance companies dropping coverage for children, in the wake of this awful piece of legislation, I surely don't think that end of the population is being helped.
                                                                                                                                                                                When they have the addition of a new child on the policy? Unless something is wrong afterward, they make out great. That's also why having lots of people on insurance helps. People like me who haven't used it still pay in while others in my family have to get surgery done every few years to replace devices in the body. The more people we add in, the more prices can drop.

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those medical costs are inflated by the existence of the insurance industry. Take out the middleman scaring you with his protection racket premium pricing and medical services will charge what people can afford. It is basic business that the market would have to right-price, if it were not so heavily assisted. Why do you think healthcare in America costs so much more than elsewhere?
                                                                                                                                                                                And we'll still be left with millions that can't pay for the flu shot let alone afford services to a point of getting check ups to stop problems before they happen, which is what really adds to the cost.

                                                                                                                                                                                It also costs more because we do the most research and dev, which isn't cheap. Sad thing is other countries force the costs and ours don't. Ie: we need more regulation, not remove what was created or what's already going - correct it!

                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by AmeliaG
                                                                                                                                                                                You don't seriously think there is a for-profit insurance plan out there where I could pay $25 a year, just in case I have a baby who needs to be on a ventilator at $1,800 a pop for every 15 minutes?
                                                                                                                                                                                You couldn't have a baby with it or pay for medical services with it... it's not for that. It's for discounts, cheaper co-pays, cross service discounts, pill discounts, help pay for products. These aren't really anything new and a wide range of optoins exist. Anything major like that comes in, they just tell you go to the ER.

                                                                                                                                                                                This is the free market at work, big business offers it one way, small business another and lots of people playing in the middle. If you want to take out insurance companies, you're screwing with the free markets. I'm fine with regulation, I'm not fine with killing an entire Industry.
                                                                                                                                                                                Last edited by TheDoc; 09-24-2010, 08:45 AM.
                                                                                                                                                                                ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                                                It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                                                  • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                    There can be only one
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                    • 39075
                                                                                                                                                                                    #195
                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                    That's also why having lots of people on insurance helps. People like me who haven't used it still pay in while others in my family have to get surgery done every few years to replace devices in the body. The more people we add in, the more prices can drop.
                                                                                                                                                                                    sorry Doc, but you are wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                    does adding more people to the electric grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    does adding more people to the phone grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    does adding more people to the TV grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    do more people buying cars make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    do more people buying gasoline make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    do more people buying houses make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                    ad infinitum.



                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                    And we'll still be left with millions that can't pay for the flu shot let alone afford services to a point of getting check ups to stop problems before they happen, which is what really adds to the cost.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It also costs more because we do the most research and dev, which isn't cheap. Sad thing is other companies force the costs and ours don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                    it costs more because they don't give a fuck about you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    they only care about profit.



                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                    This is the free market at work
                                                                                                                                                                                    it is a massive scam at work.


                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                    If you want to take out insurance companies, you're screwing with the free markets. I'm fine with regulation, I'm not fine with killing an entire Industry.
                                                                                                                                                                                    it must be killed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                                                                                                      • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                        • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                        • 13827
                                                                                                                                                                                        #196
                                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                        sorry Doc, but you are wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                        does adding more people to the electric grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        does adding more people to the phone grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        does adding more people to the TV grid make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        do more people buying cars make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        do more people buying gasoline make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        do more people buying houses make the prices drop?
                                                                                                                                                                                        ad infinitum.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Those are consumed items.. insurance isn't. But speaking of consume, Walmart would be a great example of more creates cheaper. The more people that buy into insurance, the more healthy people that pay in, the more it balances out the costs of sick people.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Them being for profit, stock profit at that.. forces them to cut costs and keep increasing them too, to keep investors happy. So they drop high costs, keep low costs, and increase the rates all around to make up for lost income volume. Regulate that, and we can add more people back in and they won't have to force profits to grow to keep investors happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                        it costs more because they don't give a fuck about you.
                                                                                                                                                                                        they only care about profit.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, that's exactly how the free market works, people are in business to make profits. I don't think walmart gives a shit about me either or truly any major corporation. Hell, I'm in business for me, not the other person at that.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                        it is a massive scam at work.
                                                                                                                                                                                        It is.. and like other Countries proper regulations can control the scam or remove it all together while allowing the business to still operate within the free market.


                                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                        it must be killed.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Unfortunately that doesn't work when everything else around you is inflated so dreaming that the cost of medical would go down so low that everyone could afford it, is simply that... a dream.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Last edited by TheDoc; 09-24-2010, 09:02 AM.
                                                                                                                                                                                        ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                                                        It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                                                          • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                            There can be only one
                                                                                                                                                                                            • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                            • 39075
                                                                                                                                                                                            #197
                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            Those are consumed items.. insurance isn't.
                                                                                                                                                                                            yes, it is. you "consume" insurance as you need it, just like anything else. it is a product.


                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            But speaking of consume, Walmart would be a great example of more creates cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                            i would say Walmart is a great example of how to monopolize.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            The more people that buy into insurance, the more healthy people that pay in, the more it balances out the costs of sick people.
                                                                                                                                                                                            the more people that buy into insurance, the larger and more powerful the insurance companies get. costs don't go down, they go up. show me why (read: actual evidence) you think insurance costs go down. don't repeat the math you are currently using, but show me a real example of health insurance costs going down.



                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, that's exactly how the free market works, people are in business to make profits. I don't think walmart gives a shit about me either or truly any major corporation. Hell, I'm in business for me, not the other person at that.
                                                                                                                                                                                            no argument from me on this.



                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            It is.. and like other Countries proper regulations can control the scam or remove it all together while allowing the business to still operate within the free market.
                                                                                                                                                                                            how do their regulations "control" or "remove" it? by keeping costs down? how does that help? there will still be people who will never have access to it. what about them?



                                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                            Unfortunately that doesn't work when everything else around you is inflated so dreaming that the cost of medical would go down so low that everyone could afford it, is simply that... a dream.
                                                                                                                                                                                            i wasn't dreaming anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                            i was telling you, the insurance system must be removed completely.



                                                                                                                                                                                            .
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                                                                                                                                                                                              • TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                                • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                • 13827
                                                                                                                                                                                                #198
                                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                yes, it is. you "consume" insurance as you need it, just like anything else. it is a product.
                                                                                                                                                                                                You don't consume insurance... it doesn't go away and have to be replenished. More people using it, doesn't mean they have to produce more product.


                                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                i would say Walmart is a great example of how to monopolize.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Lots of stores, restaurants, goods, etc get cheaper as more people use/buy/consume them. Internet access or phone 'net access or technology, more people buying/using, the cheaper they get to create.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                the more people that buy into insurance, the larger and more powerful the insurance companies get. costs don't go down, they go up. show me why (read: actual evidence) you think insurance costs go down. don't repeat the math you are currently using, but show me a real example of health insurance costs going down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Great example is Corporations. If you have one precondition person on a small company, everyones rates skyrocket to cover the cost of the person. If the person works for a large corporation, they cost is absorbed in and the rates stay the same for the people and the corporation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                More people = Lower costs. A small business as higher rates, higher premiums, etc than a big business. Which may pay more overall, but per employee and employee costs are cheaper.



                                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                how do their regulations "control" or "remove" it? by keeping costs down? how does that help? there will still be people who will never have access to it. what about them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                Regs in Canada keep pill costs down.. If you want to sell them in Canada, they force the price.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I support fed provided insurance, social care, whatever you wan to call it. Bit more above in other posts though.





                                                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                i wasn't dreaming anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                i was telling you, the insurance system must be removed completely..
                                                                                                                                                                                                That's going to leave just as many people not able to get care as having them has created. We need something provided for the people that allows everyone to fairly get the same care, if they can afford it or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                                                                                                                                                                It's all disambiguation

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                                                                    There can be only one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 39075
                                                                                                                                                                                                    #199
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    You don't consume insurance... it doesn't go away and have to be replenished. More people using it, doesn't mean they have to produce more product.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    more people buying porn memberships don't make the cost go down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you have a paysite and tomorrow get 1 million new subscribers, are you going to drop your price? of course not. why should you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you don't pay your insurance premium, doesn't your insurance "go away"? don't you need to "replenish" it every month with more money?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    it is a product Doc.




                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lots of stores, restaurants, goods, etc get cheaper as more people use/buy/consume them. Internet access or phone 'net access or technology, more people buying/using, the cheaper they get to create.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    is your Internet service cheaper now than it was in the early 90s?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    is your phone service cheaper now?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    are the phones themselves cheaper today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    no.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Great example is Corporations. If you have one precondition person on a small company, everyones rates skyrocket to cover the cost of the person. If the person works for a large corporation, they cost is absorbed in and the rates stay the same for the people and the corporation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    i don't care how corporations absorb or reduce rates for individual people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    is health insurance cheaper now than it was in the past?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    no.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    More people = Lower costs. A small business as higher rates, higher premiums, etc than a big business. Which may pay more overall, but per employee and employee costs are cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    so then what is your solution? have everyone on earth work for one massive corporation?




                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regs in Canada keep pill costs down.. If you want to sell them in Canada, they force the price.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I support fed provided insurance, social care, whatever you wan to call it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    that is unfortunate.



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by TheDoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                    That's going to leave just as many people not able to get care as having them has created. We need something provided for the people that allows everyone to fairly get the same care, if they can afford it or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    correct, but insurance companies are not the answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                                                                                                                      • The Demon
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Apr 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • 7336
                                                                                                                                                                                                        #200
                                                                                                                                                                                                        correct, but insurance companies are not the answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then what's the answer pray tell, because it's not government. You're either going to have one of them control the medical market, or the other, or both. It won't be neither, so it's counterproductive to argue about this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greed is Good

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