Fact or fiction? The myths and realities of illegal immigration

[Brujah]

Fact checking the immigration issue
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...migration.html

Some of the facts being checked include:
- Illegal immigrants cause most local crime, crowding prisons.
- Illegal immigrants are taking away jobs.
- Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.
- Americans spend billions to educate children who are here illegally and crowd our schools.
- Billions of dollars a year are spent on Medicaid for illegal immigrants.
- Illegal immigrants clog hospital emergency rooms and don't pay for services received.
- Illegals are showing up with $3,000 of available food credit on a monthly allowance.
- Illegal immigrants are invading Utah in big numbers. Most are Mexicans. In fact, most Mexicans here are "illegals."

Are you interested in facts or do you want to blindly believe what your talking heads and emails tell you to believe?

[Rochard]

My next door neighbor is Mexican. He runs a landscape business. Or he did.

Everything he did was illegal. He moved into the house next door to me, which he's renting. The first thing he did was turn the side yard into a fucking parking lot by extending the driveway to my property line. Since then it's been an all out war.

Last month the cops rolled in and busted chops, taking everyone except for him and his baby.

- His entire staff was living next door to me in a three bedroom house, including his girlfriend and their newborn child. Everyone got deported except for him and his three month old baby. The fucking mother got deported.
- His entire business was illegal. He had no business license. He paid no taxes.
- All of his staff who were here illegally didn't pay taxes either.
- His entire staff, which was usually eight to ten people at any given time, all drove his "company pick up trucks" without a license and without insurance.

They were here illegally, and every time they left the house they were breaking the law.

Don't call me racist. The other Mexican guy, across the street... We talk on a regular basis. Nice guy. Tonight we are pooling our staff of fireworks just like we do every year. The Cuban family on the other side of my house is going to join us.

[Brujah]

What's your point, and what does it have to do with "fact checking?"

You said "Don't call me racist," yet I didn't. Maybe you are.

[HighEnergy]

...Are you interested in facts or do you want to blindly believe what your talking heads and emails tell you to believe?

What do you think the Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity is?

[Brujah]

What do you think the Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity is?

What do you think it is? I'm interested in finding out the real facts on the issue. Are you? Can you prove any of these "myths" are true with facts? If you can't, why would you choose to believe them?

[brentbacardi]

- Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.

I assume we are talking INCOME TAX they do pay SALES TAX durr.... how is this not a fact lol? How would they pay income tax if they don't work at legitimate businesses? It basically is a fact.

[MetaMan]

who gives a flying fuck about your myths or facts. keyword here ILLEGAL. that is where i draw the line.

they are ILLEGAL. end of discussion.

[Agent 488]

i'll continue to blindly believe what the talking heads and emails tell me to believe.

[Brujah]

I assume we are talking INCOME TAX they do pay SALES TAX durr.... how is this not a fact lol? How would they pay income tax if they don't work at legitimate businesses? It basically is a fact.

Read the article? Novel idea, I know. It mentions they probably pay in billions per year in medicare and social security taxes, that they will never be able to take out because they're ineligible. Fake names and numbers, but still drawing checks and paying the taxes.

[brentbacardi]

From the article "The Social Security Administration has estimated about three-quarters of illegal workers have taxes for Social Security and Medicare taken out of their paychecks — programs in which they cannot legally participate unless they become legal residents."

And how do they have these taken out when someone hands them a hundred bucks cash for doing lawn work?

Doesn't make sense.

[JustDaveXxx]

My next door neighbor is Mexican. He runs a landscape business. Or he did.

Everything he did was illegal. He moved into the house next door to me, which he's renting. The first thing he did was turn the side yard into a fucking parking lot by extending the driveway to my property line. Since then it's been an all out war.

Last month the cops rolled in and busted chops, taking everyone except for him and his baby.

- His entire staff was living next door to me in a three bedroom house, including his girlfriend and their newborn child. Everyone got deported except for him and his three month old baby. The fucking mother got deported.
- His entire business was illegal. He had no business license. He paid no taxes.
- All of his staff who were here illegally didn't pay taxes either.
- His entire staff, which was usually eight to ten people at any given time, all drove his "company pick up trucks" without a license and without insurance.

They were here illegally, and every time they left the house they were breaking the law.

Don't call me racist. The other Mexican guy, across the street... We talk on a regular basis. Nice guy. Tonight we are pooling our staff of fireworks just like we do every year. The Cuban family on the other side of my house is going to join us.

Im with you. Dont think your a racist, just a realist. Something needs to be done, because it is a serious drain for boarder states. I don't have the answers nor the solutions, but we need to start somewhere. The AZ law is a good start. Like it or don't its a move in the right direction.

[CaptainHowdy]

who gives a flying fuck about your myths or facts. keyword here ILLEGAL. that is where i draw the line.

they are ILLEGAL. end of discussion.

MetaMan has a point...

[brassmonkey]

you left out the anchor babies that they get illegal citizenship for.

[Brujah]

The Arizona law is about discrimination based on the color of a person's skin or their suspected heritage. It's a racist law that reverts at least 15%+ of the population, LEGAL Americans, to second-class citizens.

[brassmonkey]

The Arizona law is about discrimination based on the color of a person's skin or their suspected heritage. It's a racist law that reverts at least 15%+ of the population, LEGAL Americans, to second-class citizens.

i dont give a shit what they say. We have to weed out illegals.

[Brujah]

Let's keep it fair and equal, and strip away all individual freedoms or rights instead. Allow the Government to intrude in every facet of our lives and question us without cause. We don't need miranda rights, or probable cause or warrants or the presumption of innocence. Assume we're all guilty first, and let us try to prove we're not. I don't like the way you look. Your hair is long. You're unshaven. You're fat. You're dressed poorly. You're probably a pot smoker too. We need to drug test you. Here, piss in this cup hippie.

Pot is illegal too.

[JustDaveXxx]

The Arizona law is about discrimination based on the color of a person's skin or their suspected heritage. It's a racist law that reverts at least 15%+ of the population, LEGAL Americans, to second-class citizens.

I have to show ID when i get questioned by a cop, if my ID says comes up flagged with a warrant or suspended and im driving, im gonna have problems.


Now if you dont have an ID and cannot produce one because you are not hear legally, back to where ever you came from. That includes white people with a British or Australian accent that cannot produce the proper credentials stating that they are hear legally.


Yea, it kinda sux, but we need to start somewhere. What is it that you recommend? Leave it as is?


Out of curiosity where are you from?

[Brujah]

No, I'm all for making it apply to every single person in the country not just suspected illegals. I want everyone stopped and interrogated and investigated. Let's do it for America! Make sure every citizen is squeaky clean. Especially the pot smokers.

[JustDaveXxx]

who gives a flying fuck about your myths or facts. keyword here ILLEGAL. that is where i draw the line.

they are ILLEGAL. end of discussion.

As Lame as this is Metaman is on point with this. No 'if's ands or buts," illegal=illegal=no rights in this country

[Brujah]

As much as Lame this is Metaman is on point with this. No 'if's ands or buts," illegal=illegal=no rights in this country

Including recreational marijuana use.

[brassmonkey]

No, I'm all for making it apply to every single person in the country not just suspected illegals. I want everyone stopped and interrogated and investigated. Let's do it for America! Make sure every citizen is squeaky clean. Especially the pot smokers.

im going to eat dinner its going to happen the law like it or not. have a good firework show 2 nite all of you.

[JustDaveXxx]

Including recreational marijuana use.

Yup. If you are dumb enough to get caught with it, sure give the ticket out for it.

[Brujah]

Yup. If you are dumb enough to get caught with it, sure give the ticket out for it.

Oh no, make it like the Arizona law. Check everyone on suspicion, based on how they look or what they're doing. If you look like a pot smoker, you have to be drug tested. If you've got it in your system, you pay the penalty.

[Vendzilla]

Fact checking the immigration issue
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...migration.html

Some of the facts being checked include:
- Illegal immigrants cause most local crime, crowding prisons.
- Illegal immigrants are taking away jobs.
- Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.
- Americans spend billions to educate children who are here illegally and crowd our schools.
- Billions of dollars a year are spent on Medicaid for illegal immigrants.
- Illegal immigrants clog hospital emergency rooms and don't pay for services received.
- Illegals are showing up with $3,000 of available food credit on a monthly allowance.
- Illegal immigrants are invading Utah in big numbers. Most are Mexicans. In fact, most Mexicans here are "illegals."

Are you interested in facts or do you want to blindly believe what your talking heads and emails tell you to believe?

I would believe that UTAH wouldn't have an illegal alien problem

What's your point, and what does it have to do with "fact checking?"

You said "Don't call me racist," yet I didn't. Maybe you are.

fact check UTAH doesn't border mexico

What do you think it is? I'm interested in finding out the real facts on the issue. Are you? Can you prove any of these "myths" are true with facts? If you can't, why would you choose to believe them?

true facts are for border states, not UTAH

Read the article? Novel idea, I know. It mentions they probably pay in billions per year in medicare and social security taxes, that they will never be able to take out because they're ineligible. Fake names and numbers, but still drawing checks and paying the taxes.

did you read the article, where they got their facts from UTAH ???


You don't think illegal immigrants don't cost us money?
http://cgja.blogspot.com/2010/02/ill...ly-to-san.html
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html
you don't think they are filling up the prisons?
Why is the governator pushing to release all of the ones we have to federal to save millions of dollars annually to save California from going broke?

[JustDaveXxx]

Oh no, make it like the Arizona law. Check everyone on suspicion, based on how they look or what they're doing. If you look like a pot smoker, you have to be drug tested. If you've got it in your system, you pay the penalty.

I dont know where you are from, but if im hanging around a parking lot in a shopping center, you better believe the cops are gonna stop me, ID me and question me. Because i dont "look" like i belong there at that time.


Im talking about following the law. You are trying to make one set of law standards apply to a completely different law. Laws don't work like that.

Where are you from? Where you are from will put some perspectives to your opinion.


I live in LA and i see whats going on, but people that live in AZ or San Diego see immigration laws way differently than living in Kansas or Canada. This is something that you fail to see. Complain, complain, yet you have no solutions. You sound like you run a Union for California state employees.





Like i asked earlier, where are you from and what solution do you propose replace the current Az immigration law? And quit ducking my two very simple questions.

[Brujah]

I'm in Florida, and I've told you a dozen times in this thread already. Check every single citizen equally, regardless. Especially those illegal pot smokers. Throw them all in jail. They're criminals.

[Brujah]

true facts are for border states, not UTAH

Just to clarify, because you're probably high on marijuana and not able to think clearly. These facts pertain to America, not just border states. The facts that are being fact-checked, and not just per Utah but nationwide.

Some of the facts being checked include:
- Illegal immigrants cause most local crime, crowding prisons.
- Illegal immigrants are taking away jobs.
- Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.
- Americans spend billions to educate children who are here illegally and crowd our schools.
- Billions of dollars a year are spent on Medicaid for illegal immigrants.
- Illegal immigrants clog hospital emergency rooms and don't pay for services received.
- Illegals are showing up with $3,000 of available food credit on a monthly allowance.
- Illegal immigrants are invading Utah in big numbers. Most are Mexicans. In fact, most Mexicans here are "illegals."

[charlie g]

Oh no, make it like the Arizona law. Check everyone on suspicion, based on how they look or what they're doing. If you look like a pot smoker, you have to be drug tested. If you've got it in your system, you pay the penalty.

Alright bleeding Nancy, the poor brown peoples are going to have to show that they are legal. Big fucking deal, let them go back across the border if they are offended.

The crying of paying social security they will never get~ I doubt any of us white peoples will get ours either. Show me 1 of these fuckers turned away from the emergency room for a common fucking cold. It doesn't happen. You go there with a cold and your insurance company tells you to eat shit and you have to cough up the $1500 for the emergency room visit. You dont pay, guess what. The hospital fucks up your credit because you didn't pay.

[Brujah]

I don't care what you communists think. I support President Bush's Open Border policy and so did McCain. If not mistaken, so did Reagan.

[jigg]

you left out the anchor babies that they get illegal citizenship for.

Only the child is US citizen, the parents are not and can't be. They get deported along with the child if caught

[charlie g]

I don't care what you communists think. I support President Bush's Open Border policy and so did McCain. If not mistaken, so did Reagan.

And this makes you what? Bush was a fukin moron.... Open borders are great when there is equality with the bodering nations. There is not with Mex-US and you and everybody else knows it. No one can go into Mexico sick and expect the Mex government to take care of them. As shitty a US schools are, they are like Harvard to what the Mexican system is.

[Brujah]

It was 1986, and Reagan signed an Amnesty law granting amnesty to any illegals here before 1982. Maybe Obama should be more like Reagan and do the same thing. Grant amnesty to any illegals that have been here before 2006. Compared to Reagan, Obama is being too strict on illegals if he doesn't grant them amnesty and pass some very lenient immigration reform.

[jigg]

"Based on population numbers of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that young males make up more of this population than the general U.S. population, sex offenders in the illegal immigrant group make up a higher percentage. When examining ICE reports and public records, it is consistent to find sex offenders making up 2 percent of illegals apprehended. Based on this 2 percent figure, which is conservative, there are approximately 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States." She then multiplied that times an average of four victims per sex offender to come up with the "million sex crimes" figure.

The glitch here is that 2 percent of illegals apprehended is not the same as 2 percent of all illegal immigrants.

nice math

[PenisFace]

I wonder how many Canadians are living and working in the United States illegally. Would they be looked at the same way as Mexican's doing the same thing? I mean, Canadians are white, so would they get the same treatment?

[DBS.US]

This is all true in California

[NemesisEnforcer]

I assume we are talking INCOME TAX they do pay SALES TAX durr.... how is this not a fact lol? How would they pay income tax if they don't work at legitimate businesses? It basically is a fact.

Illegal aliens can pay income taxes and some do. The easiest way is to get an ITN (IRS Form W7) thereby allowing you to file.

From IRS Publication 1915:

Can I get an ITIN if I am an undocumented alien?

Yes, If you are required to file a U. S. Federal income tax return or qualify to be listed on another individual?s tax return as a spouse or dependent, you must have either a valid SSN or an ITIN. If you are an undocumented alien and cannot get a SSN, you must get an ITIN for tax purposes.

[Vendzilla]

Just to clarify, because you're probably high on marijuana and not able to think clearly. These facts pertain to America, not just border states. The facts that are being fact-checked, and not just per Utah but nationwide.

just to clarify?
Read the links I posted, you are the one thats high, I haven't sparked up yet, but even wasted I know better than to buy the spin you're putting on the the problem. When Reagan granted that, they found out that there were a lot more illegal aliens than they thought.
MOre people in the US support securing the border than don't by a large margin.

[Vendzilla]

Read the article? Novel idea, I know. It mentions they probably pay in billions per year in medicare and social security taxes, that they will never be able to take out because they're ineligible. Fake names and numbers, but still drawing checks and paying the taxes.

You actually think that there that many are actually get a check? I'll bet more than 95% either are living on welfare because of an anchor baby or working under the table, novel idea my ass, they are breaking the law with identity fraud if they are using a fake name, thats another law they are breaking

So blow it out your ass if you actually think they are good for the economy, thats complete Bull Shit

heres some costs of ONE COUNTY IN CALIFORNIA

The price tag for six county departments to provide services to illegal immigrants was more than $38 million a year, the county Grand Jury found.

In the 2007-2008 fiscal year, the county spent $15.8 million to jail illegal immigrants but only got back $2.2 million from the federal government.

The county Public Defender's Office also spends $9 million a year to provide criminal defense for illegal immigrants who can't afford their own lawyers, the report said.

The hospital's health care cost for illegal immigrants was nearly $9 million in 2006. Today, that number is about $18 million, said Frank Arambula, the hospital's chief financial officer.

The hospital gets back about $5 million from Section 1011 of the Medicare program, which helps reimburse hospitals for emergency services provided to illegal immigrants

[HighEnergy]

What do you think it is? I'm interested in finding out the real facts on the issue. Are you? Can you prove any of these "myths" are true with facts? If you can't, why would you choose to believe them?

You don't answer questions, do you? That "Consortium" (sound like 1000s of people) is a handful of people dispensing biased information. No matter what it is they put a spin on it. Yes, they garner data from all across the US. Then they use editorial privilege to convert the data into illegal immigrate information with a sympathy spin.

So go ahead, take another run at it.
What do you think the 'Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity' is?

[the Shemp]

I wonder how many Canadians are living and working in the United States illegally. Would they be looked at the same way as Mexican's doing the same thing? I mean, Canadians are white, so would they get the same treatment?

we blend in better...well, except for the french canadians...

[GotGauge]

The Arizona law is about discrimination based on the color of a person's skin or their suspected heritage. It's a racist law that reverts at least 15%+ of the population, LEGAL Americans, to second-class citizens.

Don't they have to be stopped for another crime, before they are allowed to ask if they are legal or not?

[Ron Bennett]

One can debate this topic until the end of time, it makes no difference - as long as illegals benefit the elites / big business, the policy will continue as is. Simple as that.

Some may chime in about most companies don't use illegals - directly, that may true, and yet the mere presence of millions of able working illegals puts downward pressure on wages across the board.

And also affects shopping habits - illegals have very little money (especially after sending home much of their earnings) to spend and hence shop for the cheapest goods possible with little thought to quality / service; price is of paramount importance. That mentality rubs off onto much of the population; instead seeking out some semblance of quality and service, now it's only about price. Over time that mentality brings down the standard of living for much of the population.

Anyways, bottom line is that illegals will continue to be tolerated until such time that the elites / big business feel they're not welcomed and/or most of the jobs they seek dry up ...

Keep in mind that many of the illegals here have many, many children, who, despite their parent's status, are considered U.S. citizens ... so even if no more illegals came, the large population they've generated remains.

Automation combined with a lower standard of living is an unemployment train-wreck ... it's already happening, and is picking up speed ... I'll end this post on the following factoid...

There are approx 30 million more people in the U.S. than in 2000 and yet about the same number of jobs; many of which pay less than in 2000. And it's going to get worse, since even now, the U.S. population is still growing at around 3 million per year, but total number of jobs isn't ... *just to match* population growth (taking into account retirements / deaths) requires the addition of approx 100,000-150,000 new jobs each month! That's not happening.

Ron

[Rochard]

What do you think it is? I'm interested in finding out the real facts on the issue. Are you? Can you prove any of these "myths" are true with facts? If you can't, why would you choose to believe them?

If you want the fucking facts, you need to do research, not read a single fucking article with a slanted view. Your article mentions that "violent crime went down in Nogales, Arizona". But if you do thirty seconds of research you discover that what they really did was pull a fact that was true and backs up their point, while ignoring the truth - That car theft in Nogales is nearly three times the national average. Illegal aliens crossing the border at Nogales aren't doing so to commit murder and rape, but instead steal cars and rob houses and commit other small crimes, all of which are at least double the national US average in Nogales.

I'm tired of people coming on to a message board with a handful of facts from a single article that supports their point of view without doing any research. This is becoming more and more common. This happens a lot with the threads about politics and about the Middle East. People are sheep and believe what they want to believe in; They read a single article that supports what they believe and accept it as truth.

[Rochard]

I wonder how many Canadians are living and working in the United States illegally. Would they be looked at the same way as Mexican's doing the same thing? I mean, Canadians are white, so would they get the same treatment?

It has nothing to do with skin color, race, or nationality. If your Canadian and here illegally, your a criminal. No exceptions.

I fail to understand why we allow anyone from any other country to come into the US and work legally. Until the day when unemployment in the US is 0%, no one who isn't a US citizen should be allowed to work.

[JustDaveXxx]

It was 1986, and Reagan signed an Amnesty law granting amnesty to any illegals here before 1982. Maybe Obama should be more like Reagan and do the same thing. Grant amnesty to any illegals that have been here before 2006. Compared to Reagan, Obama is being too strict on illegals if he doesn't grant them amnesty and pass some very lenient immigration reform.

Really?? And when Reagan did that, did the illegals stop coming? I see you got a great messages to send the rest of the world, "Come to the US illegally, get free health care and free public services and we will eventually give you amnesty".


Brujah, i ask you over and over for a solution other than what Az did and this is your answer? Really? so this is what your gonna stick with? Amnesty and lenient immigration laws? This is your genius solution? Wow! I dont even have to comment. You pretty much summed up your intelligence level right there. Good job dude.



I have come to the conclusion that if you don't live in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas what ever you have to say negative about tougher immigration laws really has no validity, because you clearly have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.


If you had one of your family members get hit and killed by a car driven by a drunk uninsured, unlicensed, illegal Mexican immigrant, you would look at things very differently. But you live all the way in Florida and have no concept on what im talking about. But this story happens very frequently in boarder towns.



You started a nice thread, but since you don't live on any boarder states why don't you do a little bit more research before you post anything else about what States should or should not do in regards to immigration laws. Its call Google, its free, use it.

It has nothing to do with skin color, race, or nationality. If your Canadian and here illegally, your a criminal. No exceptions.

I fail to understand why we allow anyone from any other country to come into the US and work legally. Until the day when unemployment in the US is 0%, no one who isn't a US citizen should be allowed to work.

Agreed

[charlie g]

Jut for clarification, there is a large segment of illegals in the Florida population.

[ottopottomouse]

Apart from the ones migrating for criminal activity like thieving anyone that comes as cheap labour is only able to do so because there are available jobs. Use a cheap immigrant gardener or labourer then you are part of the cause.

[seeandsee]

My next door neighbor is Mexican. He runs a landscape business. Or he did.

Everything he did was illegal. He moved into the house next door to me, which he's renting. The first thing he did was turn the side yard into a fucking parking lot by extending the driveway to my property line. Since then it's been an all out war.

Last month the cops rolled in and busted chops, taking everyone except for him and his baby.

- His entire staff was living next door to me in a three bedroom house, including his girlfriend and their newborn child. Everyone got deported except for him and his three month old baby. The fucking mother got deported.
- His entire business was illegal. He had no business license. He paid no taxes.
- All of his staff who were here illegally didn't pay taxes either.
- His entire staff, which was usually eight to ten people at any given time, all drove his "company pick up trucks" without a license and without insurance.

They were here illegally, and every time they left the house they were breaking the law.

Don't call me racist. The other Mexican guy, across the street... We talk on a regular basis. Nice guy. Tonight we are pooling our staff of fireworks just like we do every year. The Cuban family on the other side of my house is going to join us.

that is one fucked situation for that guy

[Brujah]

What would Reagan do?

[Rochard]

Jut for clarification, there is a large segment of illegals in the Florida population.

Come to think of it, your right.

My sister in law is Cuban, came over here on a boat, two sons in her arms, with her sister, big sob story, blah blah blah.

Her sister, who is still not an American citizen, is a living off of the system. She can't work because of a "hand injury", and instead lives off of welfare and various state support. Nearly fucking twenty years we've been supporting this woman, and she hasn't even bothered to become a US citizen. She hasn't paid a dime into the system, and gets a wide range of benefits from it.

The two sons are even better. One of them is "slightly mentally retarded" due to a boating accident when he was young (although in his defense he's a nice guy and helps out with the family down in Socal). We pay to support to him via our taxes, even though he never put anything into it and isn't a US citizen.

The other son is even better. He's wasn't a US citizen, started dating this (smoking hot) chick, knocking her up four times in five years and having four kids. Being as he isn't a US citizen finding a job was difficult for him, being as he's here illegally, couldn't legally get a job to support his growing family. They lived off of her support (for four kids our taxes were paying for). They got into drugs, the heavy stuff. No one heard from them for a few weeks, and the grandmother (my sister in law) showed up unannounced, found her son and his girlfriend strung out on a two week binge, the kids eating their own crap. Cops were called, and they haven't seen the kids since. The four kids are now being raised by my sister in law and the grandparents on the other side. BTW, these kids are in fact Americans, and we are paying out the ass for them.

I'm not saying immigrants are lazy. Some of them are very hard working, very much so. But those are the ones who come to the US legally, work their way through the system, and become US citizens. Don't give me no bullshit about how difficult it is to become a US citizen; You fill out some paperwork, pay the fee, do your time, and then take the test. I helped a friend study for the test a long time ago. The test, btw, I bet 90% of Americans wouldn't pass - I know sure wouldn't.