But the only important thing is how much money you make with a certain sponsor. Deductions or not, one can deduct 20% of your sales and still make more money after all. :)

What if the person chargesback due to shady business practices?

Upsells that once clicked are purchased, no verification needed. What about horrible customer service? I know of programs running it so shady, it takes three hours on the phone to get rid of the charges.

Personally after 30 minutes of not being able to get the charges refunded amicably, I'd call my bank and chargeback too.

Sure, but if another sponsor converts just as good without deducting $$, I'm better off sending to them.

And there are plenty of quality programs that don't deduct for credits/cbs.

In the end it comes down to a few gripes.

1. BROs did not used to do it this way.
2. Most do not have these changes in their T.O.S. in regards to fraud/refund/CB/bounced chk.
:2 cents:

I guess I'm naive about most of that shady stuff. I just run a basic 50/50 rev-share program, with payouts handled through CCBill. No PPS, no trials, no up-sells, no cross sales, easy to cancel, etc.

On the surface it just didn't make sense that a person would make commission on a non sale, but I guess things are not always black and white...

It doesn't make any sense to fortune 500 companies, car dealers, or other sales jobs in the real world either in regards to paid per sale/commissions. Most will take back any sales for fraud/cancel/removed/returned within 30-90 days of the sale date.

However, I guess a bunch of pornographers are smarter than the average bear.
:2 cents:

Of course. :)

I have sold timeshare, home/car audio, lawn mowers, credit card machines, and used cars. Not one of them took my commissions back once I got paid... however they all held my pay until the return period passed.

That's because a commission is VERY different than a Pay Per Signup affiliate program. At the most basic level, one works for you and the other doesn't.

I agree, pornographers here would be smarter than you average bears on this subject, most the people trying to tell you how it really works have been doing it at least 2x longer than you.

I've been doing online since 1997. I think you were just finishing up your tour... flying a desk around the Marines around that time.

Oh let me guess... You are one of 'those guys' who think a reg date on this nick on some message board is when I actually had gotten into this online business right? :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Thanks for the laughs.
:2 cents:

Being that you were a free affiliate in 97, I would think that you would know how it worked back then...maybe it's because you didn't own a paysite/program, not really sure...

When we first opened our paysites in 97, and shortly afterward our program, we paid on all pps sales, following what the other programs did.

Here it is plain and simple...

If a sale you made is taken back...it never occured... what's so hard to understand about that?

If you buy something with your CC at a store and take it back... NOBODY gets paid... neither the retailer, the distributer, nor the advertiser made any money and they actually LOST money in time and resources and an open package...

Do you want money to just be created out of thin air? Do you want to be paid on fraud too? That's essentially the same thing. I mean shit, why don't I just advertise to my users that I'll pay them $5 for every sponsor they sign up with and cancel their membership... We can all get rich and drive the sponsors out of business... fucking genius...

I owned pay sites back then. I own pay sites now.

My opinion in regards to commissions/PPS and fraud/refunds/charge backs has always been the same. No matter what side of the issue I have been on. You are essentially partners in promoting this site. So you share the profit and pain.

Uhh, the advertiser DOES make the money. Do you think if I returned a shirt to a store, they take a piece of advertising money back? No ... the advertiser followed the TOS and promoted the product properly. Just because I returned the shirt does not mean it was the advertiser's fault. And guess what, that shirt that was delivered to me via UPS ... UPS didn't lose any money on it. Hell, if I shipped it back, they'd make double the money!

Also, we are not talking about fraud. I think that has been established many times that fraud is different than regular credits/cbs.

Partner = revshare. That's where you feel the profit and pain - profit comes in rebills.

Do you consider yourself a full "partner" with a program that does not disclose this info in their TOS? Rules shouldn't change to partners, especially to benefit another.

Shipping isn't part of the product... And there is zero shipping in an adult pay site so that point is moot.

I should have quantified "advertiser" in my statement... Imagine a coupon presented at time of sale that associates the sale with a third party campaign where that third party is paid on the sale... In this instance if the sale is voided... The third party does not receive any funds. It's always backed out of the totals...

And once again... "Why don't I just advertise to my users that I'll pay them $5 for every sponsor they sign up with and cancel their membership... We can all get rich and drive the sponsors out of business..." <-- That is fraud and that is EXACTLY what will occur if you run a system where you pay out even if you had to refund the sale. Anyone who thinks that's a good idea has obviously never run a high profile subscription based site.

I have already said repeatedly it should be in their T.O.S..

Opinion wise, if you want to say a program having it in the terms, is allowed - that's an opinion.

Calling an apple a banana isn't an opinion... it's a mistake, like trying to compare commissions to PPS is your mistake. They are vastly different.


Do you actually run a PPS program? Or are you speaking from the affiliate side?


The entire idea of PPS was you get paid on the sale when it happens. Everything else is mine, upgrades, rebills, popup/exits, xsales, upsells, etc.. which is why you don't take back the chargeback/refunds. The game is HUGELY balanced towards the PPS owner already.

PPS has always been pay per signup no matter what (minus fraud) ... so if coupon guy was use to having his PPS sales taken away from refunds, then he probably doesn't care. But if he was paid on every sale regardless and then started promoting a similar company that didn't disclose this in their TOS, then they would be pissed too. And in return, have right to that money.

"Always" according to who? Certainly not any mainstream businesses I know of... MAYBE just adult? But there's a reason why people don't do this:

And once again... "Why don't I just advertise to my users that I'll pay them $5 for every sponsor they sign up with and cancel their membership... We can all get rich and drive the sponsors out of business..." <-- That is fraud and that is EXACTLY what will occur if you run a system where you pay out even if you had to refund the sale. Anyone who thinks that's a good idea has obviously never run a high profile subscription based site.

Sorry to say but the adult space is a bunch of noobs when it comes to many things. This definitely being one of them. Wait till you run a pay site and you get hit by the cancel account routine... you'll be singing a different tune.

It's completely unfair to expect sponsors to payout on a sale that was charged back. They just lost money... and the more charge backs that occur, the more expensive their rates become...

I work for a company that does thousands of new signups a day... there are so many charge backs you have to evenly distribute them across multiple accounts and gateways to make sure you don't hit any thresholds where it starts costing you $0.20 more per transaction. That shit adds up FAST. Remember all rebills are going through the same routine at the same time... try a 6 figure paid member count on for size...

You know what we do with affiliates that send a lot of charge back traffic? We drop them. If we kept them we'd be eating $10s of thousands every month in increased billing rates.

In the adult space I'm an adult affiliate noob... You know what lured me here? The fucking INSANE payouts! Higher than any other industry, PERIOD. It is asking WAY too much of sponsors to continue paying out this much AND pay you on non sale sales... It's just greed at that point. I want my sponsors to make TONS of cash so they can keep cranking out content and providing me with top notch free samples to pitch to my users. :thumbsup

I have done this for 10 years and the removal of credit for a PPS sale has been around for ever and a day. I remember like in early 2k when vivid starting hitting us for them. BUt yeah look at is like this you loss the 30 bucks or whatever the sposnor losses twice that. I understand its not revshare but just because a card is accepted does not mean its not fraud. And no one pays on fraud period.

Exactly.

If someone calls or emails you saying it's fraud by the kid. Are you, as a business owner, going to have them do a charge back, or are you going to issue a refund? Same for those who claim their card was stolen, lost wallet, phished off net, or used without permission.

Most business owners on the receiving end of that phone call would issue a refund. They do not want the added expense (membership + CB bank fees), nor to be taking hits on their CB ratio with their processor/merchant bank.

The worst is when you see a chargeback when there are like 2 days left in the member's first month of membership. They probably dl'd the entire members area and charged back. Because they are scum bags.

Yes, this is the PORN Industry, not mainstream - NO part of mainstream is like Adult.

In our Industry, PPS when it first started paid on every sale and didn't take back on cb/refunds. It's fair because the program kept all sales on exits, upsells, xsales, etc.. The programs that have been around long enough, still run that way, IE: Topbucks.

Again to note: Nothing wrong with programs that do as long as it's clearly in the terms.

She works with and is the sales manager of one of the largest programs in our Industry that has been paying PPS this way from day one. I wouldn't really call one of the largest companies in our Industry a noob simply because you don't understand the business model.

The reason our industry can pay so high is because the average value of a member is that high. Programs that have upsells, xsales, exits, etc typically pay more than those that don't, but both are making a killing on the member average rebills.

I've ran my own sites/program before and we were revshare. There was one company on our PPS as we created it for them, and we had the option to deduct for credits/chargebacks and we didn't.

So you are saying your company does thousands of joins/day and yet they have to balance out their CBs? If a company is playing the CB even out game, then there is something flawed with your business model from the get-go.

Nope, when you reach a certain volume it's just natural. As I'm sure you know if you've run your own programs... People love to issue chargebacks even when they signed a contract to be rebilled, even when it's PLAIN AS DAY IN ALL CAPS, hahaha

So multiply that by a couple orders of magnitude and there you are... When you scale you've gotta scale across the board and this is one way you've gotta do it... and it sucks!

Doesn't matter about volume, it's all about the percentage for cb's. If I'm doing 100 joins or 1000 joins and doing the same biz model, I can expect the same percentage of chargebacks.

If your percentage is high enough that you have to shuffle around joins to avoid CB issues, then you are doing something wrong.

Yes, surfers chargeback when they could be refunded, not arguing that. But from what I've seen it's not too hard to stay within the cb %, even with rogue members.

what program did you own?

EvilGeniusCash, which has been sold.

"Chargeback on PPS" is like charging back from an affiliate you already credited with a pay-per-click program. The risk should be at the program owners side. Unless affiliate did fraud or an error ocurred, of course.

PPS or PPC = pay per...
RS = Revenue Share

If it's not true PPS, it need another name when marketing the program. Something between RS and PPS.

I've seen this on some of the programs I promote. If they convert good and the minus credits are few I just swallow It.

I'll have to side with Kristen on this - and if anyone wants to argue with Topbucks about how PPS works (or should work), then good luck.

If fraud isn't involved, then PPS means you get paid per signup. Its simple.

I've been charged back from PPS programs and its no big deal, but I drop their links ASAP anyway. Why? Because almost all PPS programs (and I get a username/pass before I promote them) either profit from x-sales, or have numerous upsells in their member's areas.

Many sites hit their subscribers with an upsell as soon as the surfer enters the member's area - before they see any content. Most pay sites have - at least - cam and dating upsells. Profit from a membership site does not end at the initial sale.

If you offer PPS and deduct for refunds or CBs, you fucking better give me a share of your member area upsells and cross sales.

That's a really, really good point.

And thanks. =)

ALL you people need to worry less about shit like this and more on getting traffic and sales..

CB = 2% max for affiliates if you have more than that you have other problems.

Quit crying over $100 or so