I'm a fucking existentialist


so if you believe it's deceptive then it is, if you don't then it's not


lots of grey in this world... what shade you wanna be is your choice, but again very a subjective area

Make sure you wait a good 6 months to make sure the surfer doesn't get the rebate check AND chargeback.

On the other hand, getting the surfer's address to mail the rebate check to would be nice to have, can start sending them some junk mail spam to other programs and add some value. Put in some more deceptive marketing again and you can say that to claim the rebate they have to be willing to receive some junk mail. A nice way to pump those surfers for all they're worth...

WG

roger if you're online could you please contact me on icq

ICQ:157711456

Thanks

Pornking...you just don't get it, do you. There is a whole world of business that is conducted each and every day with honesty and integrity. Here, again are my real world comparisons to how the world would work if all business was operated like the adult industry...


Here's just a few examples...

You join a site because it's a "Mature" site. You pay your fee...go to the members area..and 99% of the content is anything but mature....Mainstream equivelent...You pay to go see the movie Harry Potter...they play Star Trek instead...both good movies, but I can guarantee that you will walk out or demand your money back. It doesn't matter if the second movie is good. That's not what you wanted to see.

Trials that need to be cancelled before end of trial: A mainstream equivelent: This would be similar to going to a ski hill and taking out some demos for 3 hours. But in the contract, somewhre on the 3rd page, after a bunch of other legal mumble jumble, there is a clause that says if you don't return them in 2 hours, you are charged full price for the skis. And the contract is not automatically given to you. You need to knock on a door at the back of the shop that says contract.

You rent a car for 2 days. Before the car is given to you, they clearly explain to you that the car needs to be back at XX time, or else you are charged for another day. On adult sites, not even in the T & C's does it ever state if a day is based on 24 hours or end of day...For example, Hustler's sites 1 day trials end at midnight. Try to find that anywhere in their terms. This goes completely against common sense.

Dialers...well there is a mainstream equivelent. It's called lottery scams. You know, the ones that say "dial this number to collect your prize". Unfortunately the number is an overseas number which bills you an outrageous amount per minute.

This arguement is pointless..no matter what, you will find ways to justify your actions...

Oh lord....

AOL = scam... They do give you 1000 minutes free, but to get the service you have to put your CC number in. If you do not cancel the account it will auto rebill. Ever read the terms, 6 month min bill time as soon as you put the CD in.

49thParallel, you need to learn about trials before you post theories on them. The only time the trial cancel rule comes into play is for people with their own merchant accounts. If the paysite owner uses epoch/ccbill/ibill ect the person can cancel up to the last second. You can signup for any LargeCash or PornKings site and you can cancel both minutes before it renews, even though our terms say 24 hours ahead of time.

Go rent a car, read the terms, ever see the part that says if you get a scratch or a dent they can make you BUY the car if you didnt get insurance? They don't tell ya that do they it's on the 3rd page after a ton of legal shit.

As for paysites that advertise 'mature' and don't give ANY mature I would need to see an example. I have not found a site that does this in a very long time. I do find sites that are mature, have mature content in the members area but as well offer other content. Why wouldnt you? Most people like more than one niche.

"MOST" money programs are not deceptive, for sure not in the ways most people think. Some offer better quality, more content, more updates but that isnt deceptive. That is the same as buying a Sony DVD player for $100 or an off brand pile of shit DVD player for $100 bucks. You take your chances when you spend your money at the store or online. You can't test the members section and you can't test the DVD player in the store in most cases.

Fact is, everyone turns to the other for an excuse as to why conversion ratios still arnt 1:200, trial to converts for most arnt 50%+ anymore.. What goes up must come down. Traffic is still the same as it was 3 years ago, just now people know their is more so as a webmaster you have to figure out how to satisfy each persons different needs, much like walmart does, which is why they are so fuggin huge. Prices are a tad lower but the selection is just huge. If an adult site could offer that type of selection, while being easy to surf it would do the same thing. Much like the Hustler store in LA did.

Relax some, Roger isnt doing deceptive marketing tatics, most programs arnt. About as stupid as half the guys thinking every money program shaves, when most have no clue what the traffic is doing once it's on the paysite anyway.

Pot, meet kettle.

the amount of webmasters who signed up today from this thread is over whelming.

I just turned my ICQ off to take a break and I'm out for drinks

I'm glad the guys with traffic understand:thumbsup

Doc Drop some more Knowledge:thumbsup and educate some foo's

Glad to see other sponsors on boards becoming more active with webmasters

Have you ever checked out the sites when password lists are posted? I have. If 90% of the sites say anything other than "If you join my site you are going to see the same overused plug-ins and content that you have seen on the other ten sites you have joined" they are practicing deception. In addition some of them of them are just terrible in every aspect, from content, to navigation, to 404's, to blind links that lead to popup hell. Just pure crap. I have wondered how so many sites still remain in business at all as I would assume that the chargeback percentage is very high. I also suspect that with the new Visa and Master Card rules the majority of these types of sites will not exist after 2003. There is not anyone that can seriously argue that the Adult Entertainment business is not filled with deception and outright fraud. As for those that run affiliate programs, that are not currently cheating their Webmasters, I have no doubt in my mind if the figures begin to go south they will cheat their Webmasters and we all know that the scripts exist to easily do this. The porn business is filled with the amoral, the unprincipled, the sleazy, the shady and the outright dishonest, whose only concern is the buck. There will probably be those that say the same thing exists in the brick and motar world of business and of course it does, but not near to the extent that it does in the porn business.

It might be wrong but without it most people here would earn 1/2 of what they do today.

Money is king, if your morality gets in the way of business go with for Mac Donalds.

Sammy

ALL TRUE.... Not everyone has bad members sections, but many have suck ass members areas quite true.

Sammy

Those rebate things piss me off. For example, while traveling recently, I bought an MP3 player with a $20 mail-in rebate. Since I was on the road, I didn't hang on to the packaging. Now I read the fine print and they want part of the packaging as a "proof of purchase." My receipt apparently isn't enough. Now, I'm sure someone when figuring out the cost of the program figured in putting in some bullshit so that they could refuse a certain percentage of the rebates. Is that honest? It's not what I call honest. Trickery isn't honest.

I had something happen along those lines. I bought a printer a few years ago and it came with a $50.00 rebate (If i remember the amount correctly). I sent in for the rebate only to learn that they would not send the rebate to a P.O. Box.

Don't use the sites listed on a password site to judge 'most' paysites. Most of the sites on a password lists are created for that purpose, most don't even have a front end.

Yes, their are paysites that rip off the visitor once they signup. At the same time their are paysites that give more than the value of the site.

This really is no worse than the non adult business world. Lies, cheating, scams, ect.. Just about every major company in the US has been caught up in some kind of scam. I'm sure millions of little ones do it every day as well.

It's business, shitty way to look at it but it's true.

The only issue at hand though is pointing fingers at sites/companies that you 'think' might be creating some kind of deception. The terms of a site or what a person thinks he knows is what get's things started. It's what really hurts us most. Don't assume.

1. Free trials and low-cost trials are great. The problem is sites not making it PERFECTLY CLEAR that a full charge is on the way if they don't cancel. Simply having the billing screen say "$4.95 3 days access - Rebills at $30 monthly" isn't enough. Educate the surfer what rebills are, and the exact cancelation process before they hit the sign-up screen.

2. This SHIT of offering something "free" (requiring a CC for "age verification"), saying it's TOTALLY FREE 1,000 times, and then in the fine print at the bottom saying a seperate $40 paysite goes along with it has got to stop too.

3. And the biggest scam going is the screwjob members areas. You truly don't get what you pay for. Many sub-$20 sites kick the ass of $40 sites. When people see that $40 price, they are expecting to get one hell of a site. Give it to them.

i agree. if you're charging 30 or 40 bucks a month give the people something at least decent. If MaxCash and CE can do it so can you. You don't have to shoot or buy exclusive content and spend a fortune. The prices for leased plugins and other licensed content are very reasonable. You can put together a nice members area.

there's a very large program, they don't advertise here, they were charging $49.95 a month. I checked out the inside of their sites once - my jaw dropped. Nothing! Nothing but the Holio package, that was it. Then they went even further, at the top of the members content page was a notice that if the customer stayed on after the trial or a second month they would have access to the live feeds and get a free videotape. The live feeds were just free upsell feeds and the free videotape was a link to Videoage.

that's just thievery.

A good indication of how a sponsor is likely to treat you is how they treat the surfer. If they are out of fuck him why wouldn't they fuck you.
Kinda like when you go to a titty bar and one of the girls says your cute and she wants to dance for you. If you think she really gives a fuck what you look like then you pay the price.
My mom gave me some good advice when I left home-Don't do business with crooks.

Mutt would that program be run by australians?

g'day mate! :Graucho

and not ScottPB or Intergal.

.... so say I was at a strip club and I was into, say Blondes. So i pay a blonde GIRL to give me a lapdance. then "she" turns around and has a GIANT boner... 'BONUS CONTENT"... woo..hoo?

... I'm just babeling almost 6:30am, havn't slept yet.

i have some more examples but i can't even see the text on my screen my vision's so blurry right now, maybe tommorow folks. When I'm sober and awake

There are values to be had and many porn enthusiasts aren't stupid. If you have a good site with a quality tour, you can win savvy surfers over. And they are less likely to charge back--not like Joe Average who wants "free porn" and gives out his CC, then freaks when his wife sees the bill.

Clearly though, the numbers game favors people not making a stink--hell, I still need to make time to contest $300 in rebates that were arbitrarily denied on first try... it's a pain, and the companies know it.

But there are other ways to play ball:

I convert at 1 in 25 with my own site that is on a quality, smaller AVS where the charge is $24.95 for a year's worth of access to EXCLUSIVE original young amateur content I shot. Members also get access to hundreds of other quality amateur sites that beat your average adult site.

http://erotic.redclouds.com/latenightgirl/

Much better than many sites charging $24.95 a month, that is for sure...

As long as hidden charges and thin sites leave a bad taste in surfer's mouths, I will make my living selling a straightforward no bullshit value with no rebills or hidden charges.

Fuck, I need to start an affiliate program--anyone who wants to help set it up, run it, or promote me--email me to [email protected]. I am comfortable as is, and am only marketing to a miniscule slice of our very large pie.

AKFK

Good logic.

I think some webmasters think the layman surfer understands our business jargon. Instead of saying "rebill" EXPLAIN that they will be billed every month until they cancel. If this kills your profits, it means you have a crap site.

Exactly. Notice how (I believe) all of the sponsors save LargeCash defending deceptive marketing practices don't buy ad space on GFY? But they have hundreds of posts, getting plenty of 'free' exposure. But unfortunately they are followers too, for many years large adult companies have deceived and ripped off customers and webmasters alike. These new folks are just much worse at it, and doing it on a smaller budget.

I dont typically post here but this thread caught my eye.

I've heard tale of deception in the adult industry since the day I walked in, I've heard about shitty members sections, free trials not being free yada yada...it's no secret what the world thinks of this industry - and frankly many of the people actively in the industry show it little respect but that's a different thread - it is always assumed that the online porn industry must be fucking both it's consumers and it's supporters, by in large I think this assumption comes from past practices not current ones.

I'm drifiting my apologies

Big business - medium business - small business - any business has one goal, to make money - this being the case all business is fraight with deception and "marketing tactics" that are less than up front. Every industry out there participates in trying to "fool" it's customers. This is not to say that it's a good practice, this is not to imply that it will result in anything less than a big old bite in the ass when someone nails you about the "trickery", whatever it may be. I am constantly amazed that people in this day and age are not actively trying to protect themselves from scams and the like not to mention the naïveté required to express shock when they actually fall for something stupid like "mail this in by Jan 4th and be the Next Big Winner"