I just find the different views people have on this stuff to be fascinating. There are people that will tell you that guns are straight up "evil". And then there are others that will defend them (guns) with the same ferocity they would use to defend their own child, yet most have no idea what a real gunshot does to a real body. Most have never seen a dead body. And most would probably be incapable of killing another human up close and personal when the event presented itself.

I find both ends to be ridiculous. And so, I come up with ideas and questions to get people thinking a little deeper than just what they've seen on tv. I think a lot of people want to carry because it would let them feel like some kind of bad ass. Psuedo-authority is not a good thing for anyone. I hear a lot of, "well, if someone had a concealed carry, they could have prevented this...." but the reality is, more people would probably die for no reason.

Having a gun and the ability to kill a man where he stands do not come as a package deal. :2 cents:

I know what you are up to man, and I agree.

At the end of the day, for most people guns are gadgets. They fetishize them the same way they fetishize cameras or computers or whatever. But this is a gadget that makes you stand a little taller and maybe act a little tougher than you should and some people love that.

I lived in Tucson for a long while and I know where the store in the story is and I can tell you right now, there isn't shit in the dump worth losing your life over, or worth taking a life over.

And for the record the store owner lit those guys up with a POS Mossberg shotgun, not a concealed handgun (a good friend of mine is a Tucson reporter).

I'm not trying to disagree or argue either but based on your wishywashy statement I figured you did not understand the law. Not sure how somebody, who owns a firearm, could know the law and still not be able to pick the side that gives them the right to use what they own.

I don't think that is true about the legislation. That's a separate thing which, as far as I know, is not yet law.

Also, not all states require training with the gun to qualify for a CCW.

Good for you, good for your friend...Your outlook is skewed though. You have cast a pretty broad generalization. Two in fact.

If we are talking about guns as a preventive of crime, then wouldn't open carry be more effective than concealed? Say you are in a store, waiting in line with your glock on your belt for everyone to see and a robber walks in with intent. If the robber saw someone with a gun wouldn't they then look for another place to rob?

http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_...g_full_600.jpg

Plus, if you are legally entitled to carry, why hide it? It would seem only someone who either illegally obtained the firearm or has illegal motives for carrying would want to conceal.

So now they'll just kill the guy right away, or bring more guns, etc..

On one hand I agree with you. However the other side to that is:

Open carry can often make others around you feel uncomfortable. The other thing is that most people think that a permit is required for you to own a gun, which is not the case in most states, and they don't understand that it is legal to open carry in many areas. It's not unheard of for people to call the Police and report a guy with a gun in a store. The Police show up and everything is legal. That's a waste of Police time and resources because some idiot in the public THINKS he knows the law.

Open carry attracts more attention and being the center of attention is not what carrying a firearm is about. I do open carry at times but when I do I am very aware of how my gun is positioned and I do my best to limit it's visibility. If I'm standing at a counter then I will put my right side to the counter and limit the exposure of my gun. Sitting in a booth then I never sit on the side where my gun can be seen.

LOL

Right. :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

why you would describe my view as wishy washy is beyond me, i see both sides and as i mature in life my views on life also mature and evolve. that's not wishy washy (flip-flopping from one side to the other).

in fact, i own several handguns and rifles, not A firearm. moreover, as i stated, my actions belie my beliefs in the right to bear arms. that has not changed.

Because you can't make a decision and stick with it. Shit or get off the pot.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

enjoy your weekend.

Maybe they should just install an ATM that crooks can walk up to and take the money.

Seriously how many banks do you hear about that get robbed these days? Banks have pretty good deterrents so why can't a general store have that too?

Also if you don't think people should have guns because it ends up in a gun fight then you should also advocate taking guns away from the police. If you point a gun at an officer you will see a gun fight.

But.... isn't that why the police exist? So that we supposedly have a trained force to deal with whatever needs dealing with? Isn't this why we began putting marshals and sheriffs and general law enforcement in place way back before electricity? So that mobs of people weren't walking around armed to the teeth, killing each other over stupid disputes?

You want us to go backwards in evolution? It didn't work back then, and it won't work now.

I am not a gun owner. With that said I have no problems with other people owning them and using them when their life is in danger. I support the right to bear arms and the right to defend yourself.

Yes police are suppose to prevent crime. Why do banks, jewelry stores, large malls, etc... have armed guards walking around? Should we make mace illegal? Police can stop crimes.

So you are okay when police get into gun fights but not a store owner defending his life and property. Why is that what's the difference?

My hope would be that the pigs, er... police and armed guards are well trained, not only in using their weapons but also in the psychological aspect of killing another human. The store owners most likely are not. This is why news stories always end with things like, "1 killed, 3 or 4 wounded". Wild shooting, shattered nerves and too much adrenaline does not lend well to a gunfight.

Store owners are not properly trained, and they aren't fucking cowboys.

I would think that open carry would make people more comfortable. If I know that people are carrying, but concealed, am I wondering who has one and who doesn't? At least with open carry its right there for all to see. And I would think a public education campaign, some billboards and things on the news, could easily alert the public that it is normal to openly carry, eliminating calls to the Police.

I understand what you are saying about attracting unwanted attention, but isn't the reason to carry a weapon for self defense? Couldn't a potential problem be averted if a would be criminal saw that gun on your belt?

Really? Thanks for the heads up on that. It would explain why the USA is #4 on the gun death rate list outside of a warzone. Clearly they work well as a deterrent. :error

Here's a thought:

For everyone that is of the school of "We should carry for self-defense", have you ever considered other methods of self-defense? What if your gun gets stuck when you're trying to pull it out? What if it misfires? What if you lose your nerve? What if you're simply too damn slow?

A: You die.

Humans are not hard organisms to kill. Keep that in mind. You don't need a Desert Eagle .50 to take someone out. I personally wouldn't lock all my faith & security in one firearm. :2 cents:

It's not that easy to educate the public on gun laws. There are groups that do what they can. www.opencarry.org Then you have Police who are not properly trained. Las Vegas trained 30,000 officers on open carry laws and rights yet this shit happened last month.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum36/43784.html

If you think the average person is more comfortable seeing a gun then I encourage you to put one on your hip and go about your normal business for a week. You will notice people noticing you and most of them are clearly not as comfortable as you seem to think.

More people die from poor decisions made by doctors than those who die from gun shots.

Maybe people should avoid doctors too.

LOL.

This is a pretty odd counter argument.

If somebody pulls a gun on you... think of a different method of self defense? What? Kung fu?

You can either defend yourself or you can't. Bringing knives to a gunfight is not defense.

Or you could disarm him, cripple him so he can't walk, then call the police.

But I know.... that takes like, effort.

Let me try to understand this...

A guy comes up to you with a gun. You say that the average person is not capable of defending themselves with a gun in return. However, the average person should be able to disarm and cripple a man with a gun?

I really don't follow. The police can't disarm and cripple a man with a gun. Average citizen should?

So if you had a gun, then what?

Guy comes up to you with a gun. You tell him, "I have a gun too, please don't shoot while I take it out to shoot you." ?

If there were any more strawmen here i'd expect a fucking lion and tinman to follow.

I'm simply trying to understand your "other defense" argument. You brought it up. Follow through with it. It doesn't make sense.

You don't trust a guy to carry a gun, but you trust a guy to know kung fu? LOL.

Personally I'm fine with concealed carry. Get a permit, I don't care. If somebody wants to carry a gun around, they will regardless if it's legal or not. They already do.

Strange, but up here in Canada, and most of the rest of the civilized world we don't have the problems with firearms like you do down there, and per capita we in Canada have more firearms than you do.

I am curious, what is it like living in a country that you're so afraid of everyone else that you feel you need to carry a gun?

And just to be clear - I own several guns myself. I am not against owning firearms.

That sucks about the guy. But with 30,000 people there are bound to be some idiots in the group. I didn't quite get the part about his possessions being removed "2 knives, car stereo, cell phone, spare magazine, id taken out of wallet"...I mean, was this on him at the time? lol...anyway...

I wonder though, if like you are saying, that most people are not comfortable seeing someone carry a weapon, what that says? Do they understand that someone, anyone, could be carrying a weapon, concealed? Are people ok with that, they just don't want to see it? Or is the average person not ok with any sort of carrying of a weapon in public?

I never said anyone needs to bust out with the kung fu.
There are self-defense courses all over the place. You'd go to the trouble of acquiring a gun in the first place (legally), then all the hoops to get a carry permit, but you wouldn't spend a few days learning to defend yourself without guns and against guns?

What kind of logic is that?

If you know how to disarm someone and take their gun from them, you never need to carry. Let them do the carrying for you and take it when you need it.

Or cling to the idea that in the heat of the moment you're going to suddenly become Billy The Kid and hope you survive.

See this is the problem I'm having... you think that carrying a gun makes somebody believe they are Billy the Kid and "hoping they can survive." Yet you are advocating playing Superman and ripping a gun out of some man's hand?

Frankly I don't think either method is going to do you much good. If somebody sticks you up, give them what you got and move on. A wallet is not worth fighting for. Though I defend the right to carry simply because I believe in the right.

They'll probably take your gun along with your wallet.

If someone sticks you up, they really just want whatever you got on you. I doubt most crooks are interested in executing you in the process. But you flash an opposing gun in the situation and now you are a threat. Your odds of becoming dead have just increased dramatically. If you try to pull it on someone that's already holding on you, you're guaranteed to be dead.

But you're right. It's your right.

Honestly - I think a lot less cops need guns than have them. I see no reason a beat cop can't do his job with a Taser and a weapons squad on standby or an AR in the trunk of his prowler in a gun safe.

fuck you you fucking annoying faggot, do i really gotta install this plugin and put your ass on ignore just to enjoy gfy

That is a great law.

All states should allow those who can legally own guns to carry them. :2 cents:

with or without a permit, it looks like almost all states allow for some sort of carry. Only Illinois, Wisconsin and Dist. of Columbia have no issue.

Please...

My hope is that would be robbers would understand the psychological and physical ramifications of a gun fight. If it's too risky perhaps they'll find another (honest) way to make money.