Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 17140125)

why you would describe my view as wishy washy...

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17140168)

Because you can't make a decision and stick with it. Shit or get off the pot.

Originally Posted by Nysus (Post 17139985)

So now they'll just kill the guy right away, or bring more guns, etc..

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17140236)

Also if you don't think people should have guns because it ends up in a gun fight then you should also advocate taking guns away from the police. If you point a gun at an officer you will see a gun fight.

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17137996)

I just find the different views people have on this stuff to be fascinating. There are people that will tell you that guns are straight up "evil". And then there are others that will defend them (guns) with the same ferocity they would use to defend their own child, yet most have no idea what a real gunshot does to a real body. Most have never seen a dead body. And most would probably be incapable of killing another human up close and personal when the event presented itself.

I find both ends to be ridiculous. And so, I come up with ideas and questions to get people thinking a little deeper than just what they've seen on tv. I think a lot of people want to carry because it would let them feel like some kind of bad ass. Psuedo-authority is not a good thing for anyone. I hear a lot of, "well, if someone had a concealed carry, they could have prevented this...." but the reality is, more people would probably die for no reason.

Having a gun and the ability to kill a man where he stands do not come as a package deal. :2 cents:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140251)

But.... isn't that why the police exist? So that we supposedly have a trained force to deal with whatever needs dealing with? Isn't this why we began putting marshals and sheriffs and general law enforcement in place way back before electricity? So that mobs of people weren't walking around armed to the teeth, killing each other over stupid disputes?

You want us to go backwards in evolution? It didn't work back then, and it won't work now.

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17140286)

Yes police are suppose to prevent crime. Why do banks, jewelry stores, large malls, etc... have armed guards walking around? Should we make mace illegal? Police can stop crimes.

So you are okay when police get into gun fights but not a store owner defending his life and property. Why is that what's the difference?

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17140103)

On one hand I agree with you. However the other side to that is:

Open carry can often make others around you feel uncomfortable. The other thing is that most people think that a permit is required for you to own a gun, which is not the case in most states, and they don't understand that it is legal to open carry in many areas. It's not unheard of for people to call the Police and report a guy with a gun in a store. The Police show up and everything is legal. That's a waste of Police time and resources because some idiot in the public THINKS he knows the law.

Open carry attracts more attention and being the center of attention is not what carrying a firearm is about. I do open carry at times but when I do I am very aware of how my gun is positioned and I do my best to limit it's visibility. If I'm standing at a counter then I will put my right side to the counter and limit the exposure of my gun. Sitting in a booth then I never sit on the side where my gun can be seen.

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17136717)

A weapon is a deterrent. This store is not an easy mark and now the World knows it.

Originally Posted by cwd (Post 17140309)

I would think that open carry would make people more comfortable. If I know that people are carrying, but concealed, am I wondering who has one and who doesn't? At least with open carry its right there for all to see. And I would think a public education campaign, some billboards and things on the news, could easily alert the public that it is normal to openly carry, eliminating calls to the Police.

I understand what you are saying about attracting unwanted attention, but isn't the reason to carry a weapon for self defense? Couldn't a potential problem be averted if a would be criminal saw that gun on your belt?

Originally Posted by Quagmire (Post 17140337)

Really? Thanks for the heads up on that. It would explain why the USA is #4 on the gun death rate list outside of a warzone. Clearly they work well as a deterrent. :error

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140351)

Here's a thought:

For everyone that is of the school of "We should carry for self-defense", have you ever considered other methods of self-defense? What if your gun gets stuck when you're trying to pull it out? What if it misfires? What if you lose your nerve? What if you're simply too damn slow?

A: You die.

Humans are not hard organisms to kill. Keep that in mind. You don't need a Desert Eagle .50 to take someone out. I personally wouldn't lock all my faith & security in one firearm. :2 cents:

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 17140419)

LOL.

This is a pretty odd counter argument.

If somebody pulls a gun on you... think of a different method of self defense? What? Kung fu?

You can either defend yourself or you can't. Bringing knives to a gunfight is not defense.

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140427)

Or you could disarm him, cripple him so he can't walk, then call the police.

But I know.... that takes like, effort.

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 17140433)

Let me try to understand this...

A guy comes up to you with a gun. You say that the average person is not capable of defending themselves with a gun in return. However, the average person should be able to disarm and cripple a man with a gun?

I really don't follow. The police can't disarm and cripple a man with a gun. Average citizen should?

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140439)

So if you had a gun, then what?

Guy comes up to you with a gun. You tell him, "I have a gun too, please don't shoot while I take it out to shoot you." ?

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17140406)

More people die from poor decisions made by doctors than those who die from gun shots.

Maybe people should avoid doctors too.

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17140390)

It's not that easy to educate the public on gun laws. There are groups that do what they can. www.opencarry.org Then you have Police who are not properly trained. Las Vegas trained 30,000 officers on open carry laws and rights yet this shit happened last month.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum36/43784.html

If you think the average person is more comfortable seeing a gun then I encourage you to put one on your hip and go about your normal business for a week. You will notice people noticing you and most of them are clearly not as comfortable as you seem to think.

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 17140453)

I'm simply trying to understand your "other defense" argument. You brought it up. Follow through with it. It doesn't make sense.

You don't trust a guy to carry a gun, but you trust a guy to know kung fu? LOL.

Personally I'm fine with concealed carry. Get a permit, I don't care. If somebody wants to carry a gun around, they will regardless if it's legal or not. They already do.

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140465)

I never said anyone needs to bust out with the kung fu.
There are self-defense courses all over the place. You'd go to the trouble of acquiring a gun in the first place (legally), then all the hoops to get a carry permit, but you wouldn't spend a few days learning to defend yourself without guns and against guns?

What kind of logic is that?

If you know how to disarm someone and take their gun from them, you never need to carry. Let them do the carrying for you and take it when you need it.

Or cling to the idea that in the heat of the moment you're going to suddenly become Billy The Kid and hope you survive.

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 17140477)

See this is the problem I'm having... you think that carrying a gun makes somebody believe they are Billy the Kid and "hoping they can survive." Yet you are advocating playing Superman and ripping a gun out of some man's hand?

Frankly I don't think either method is going to do you much good. If somebody sticks you up, give them what you got and move on. A wallet is not worth fighting for. Though I defend the right to carry simply because I believe in the right.

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 17140477)

See this is the problem I'm having... you think that carrying a gun makes somebody believe they are Billy the Kid and "hoping they can survive." Yet you are advocating playing Superman and ripping a gun out of some man's hand?

Frankly I don't think either method is going to do you much good. If somebody sticks you up, give them what you got and move on. A wallet is not worth fighting for. Though I defend the right to carry simply because I believe in the right.

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17140236)

Also if you don't think people should have guns because it ends up in a gun fight then you should also advocate taking guns away from the police. If you point a gun at an officer you will see a gun fight.

Originally Posted by fatfoo (Post 17136578)

Having a weapon will not protect you. The armour will protect. You having a weapon may aggravate other people to attack you.

I just think that a concealed weapon can't really be hidden from other people. People read minds nowadays.

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17136962)

Last month AZ passed a law where they no longer require a permit for a CCW. As long as you can legally own the gun, you can legally carry concealed.

Originally Posted by Shoehorn! (Post 17140788)

That is a great law.

All states should allow those who can legally own guns to carry them. :2 cents:

Originally Posted by AaronM (Post 17136515)

Although I'm sorry to here that the store owner was injured, I'm sure he feels a great sense of accomplishment for being able to protect his business and employees. Well wishes to him for a speedy recovery.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/93...aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17140306)

My hope would be that the pigs, er... police and armed guards are well trained, not only in using their weapons but also in the psychological aspect of killing another human. The store owners most likely are not. This is why news stories always end with things like, "1 killed, 3 or 4 wounded". Wild shooting, shattered nerves and too much adrenaline does not lend well to a gunfight.

Store owners are not properly trained, and they aren't fucking cowboys.

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17141218)

My hope is that would be robbers would understand the psychological and physical ramifications of a gun fight. If it's too risky perhaps they'll find another (honest) way to make money.

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head (Post 17141235)

But that's not going to happen and you know it. Someone that's resorting to robbing a convenience store is not normally doing a risk assessment analysis in his desperation for cash. That's a pipe dream.

Originally Posted by Sagi_AFF (Post 17141427)

So why doesn't he rob a bank? More money there than any convenience store. Wouldn't you say banks employ a hire level of deterrent?