AZ State and many other States have very easy, very clear, farming laws that allow them to draft legal working Mexicans (and others) to come in during harvest times and they're allowed to pay them below normal wages by paying them per bushel they pick.

The Lazy in this case is the farmer that refused to use a system setup for them, because it's not like illegals hang around the rest of the year to wait for a harvest, he actually has to go find them.

Consider yourself lucky then?!?

If you are white and American, a Mexican cop will pull you over for anything and pretty much just take all the money you have - and if you don't give it to him, say hello to Mexican jail.

The Mexican cops get paid dick, this is how they make their real money.

Maybe I misread your post. I thought you said that the illegals were rushing in to take the jobs Americans would not do...as if you had seen some documentary about this, so I was asking for a like to the vid, news release or whatever you were referring to.

I don't agree that unemployment would drop to zero. First illegals aren't counted in the unemployment rate and secondly if you remove all the Mexicans from the jobs, you assume a white man here is going to take the job. Too many citizens would rather milk the system than actually put in a hard day of work.

Police never need a reason to pull you over with the "You fit the description" catchall.

The blame should go to both, the illegal and the employer, that is the only problem I have with this bill. There is not a provision to fine anyone employing an illegal, its needs to be upwards of $25k per illegal. Cut off the demand and the supply.

The fools in Washington do not want to touch this issue because whichever way they decide will end up costing them votes, so they ignore it....

AZ has State laws on hiring illegals and makes busts all the time.

I know there are laws in place as I saw that bust on tv the other day but they need to heavily fine employers, like I said 25k+ per individual. We can not address just one side of the supply/demand equation

It has slowly been getting stronger... I agree though, but I feel they shouldn't be allowed to have a business in AZ anymore.

who in the end has more power? a well connected business lobby or lower income powerless nativists?

aside from a sideshow like this nothing will change.

Stated for truth :thumbsup

They do have something on the books, and the only person that was trying to enforce the law was sheriff Joe and he got ridiculed by the politicians and the Governor, you know "Janet Napolitano"....he kept making busts, but at the same time the busts started to decline.

I am sure he will be going full force ahead once this law goes into effect. And there are going to be allot of busts.

I think not only should the fine be a 25K fine per illegal, it should also include , germinate loss of contractors license (nationwide), and permanent suspension of his business license in the State of Arizona along with, confiscation of all company assets .

If the penalties are tough it will get someone?s attention.

Shelly, have long hair, ride a Harley see how many times you are asked for papers and "I'm going to have to check you for weapons" ... "mind if I check your saddlebags"

I get profiled all the time and I'm white. You probably get cut slack because you're an attractive woman. Life isn't fair and people are constantly judged by their appearance.


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exactly, not to mention if you wearing colors.

I was raised by outlaw biker uncles and thats how it is. Maybe not these weekend warrior harley riders, but real bikers get stopped constantly.

1%ers get profiled!!

Once in Cocoa Beach I was stopped and while my paperwork was being verified a cop actually asked me where I got my watch and if I had a receipt for it.


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I would say "It was a gift":2 cents:

Just to see what would happen ... I wanted to tell him It was from my meth profits. :1orglaugh


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If they are legal citizens then they can apply for that stuff and get it. It was made for American citizens. :2 cents:

You need to read again, as I had not seen that story before late last night, nor had I posted it before. So take your attempt to make me look stupid and stick it up your ass. :)

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I like you, Selena. :thumbsup

Okay, in your instance, I think most people can see where the police would have been coming from in asking for your ID. I think that when an alarm is set off, then they have probable cause to be asking questions. I don't agree with you that police should have the right to ask you to prove citizenship, but for the sake of argument, let's say that I do. :)

The whole issue that I have with the Arizona bill hinges on two terms. "Lawful contact" and "reasonable suspicion". The Arizona legislature could have very clearly defined those two concepts, and I imagine there would have been zero uproar from the general public. But they didn't. The concepts are left very vague, and nothing that I have read thus far shows how those terms are defined by the Arizona Judicial System.

What is lawful contact? It's far too gray an area. Does it mean that a cop can walk up to someone minding their own business, doing nothing out of the ordinary, and ask them to produce a birth certificate or passport? Point to something in the Arizona laws that defines it clearly. If the drafters of the Bill intended for the meaning to be probable cause, then why not use that term that does have legal definition?

What constitutes reasonable suspicion? Same thing as above, there is nothing to show how it is defined. Can ethnicity be a legal factor to determine reasonable suspicion? If so, even if it is combined with other things, I think that is wrong.

I do not trust police to come up with their own definition of those terms. It needs to be done clearly within the bill itself. Not for the protection of illegals, but for the protection of US citizens and legal immigrants.

I do understand that we have a huge issue with illegals. I think going after everyone that employs them is the easiest step.

i was thinking of a movie "a day without know it all adult webmasters who solve the world's problems every day from behind their keyboards" but it would be boring as nothing in the world would be any different.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Point taken. :winkwink:

As a final comment before bowing out, in addition to targeting employers, stopping the War on Some Drugs would probably be the best thing for Arizona, and the rest of the country in terms this issue.

Wow, let me know where you are going in Mexico so I can stay away from there. :winkwink:
I have drove down through the baja area a few times, didn't have any problems but I have heard enough stories that I only go with people that actually know the area.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, they do have the right to stop people. All I was saying was that I thought you were exaggerating how it is quite a bit. I have been to plenty of places far outside the resort towns, I know people that actually live there and many times I stay in the regular parts of the city where everyone lives. Yes they do stop people usually these are checkpoints but most of the time when they stop people they are looking for illegals that are sneaking into Mexico not Americans or Mexicans and if they see a couple Americans in the car usually don't even bother checking you. This is what people that actually live there have told me and what I have seen. The last time I was there about a month ago we went through a checkpoint setup in the middle of the road, they just took a quick look at us and signaled us to keep driving, car was full of people, some Mexican, some American.

Yeah there are dirty cops, I have had that happen once before about 8 years ago, I gave the guy 20 bucks and we were on our way. I wasn't happy about it but it wasn't really a big deal either. As far as actually being thrown in jail for no reason, thats pretty ridiculous, unless you are in some little town in the middle of no where I would seriously doubt any cop trying to pull that. They do have a legal system in Mexico and you would be out pretty quickly and the cop would most likely lose his job. That being said if you get plastered and run around like an idiot bad things have a way of happening. But anyway to say all Mexican cops are dirty is pretty huge generalization.

Someone lied to you. The first thing in the new law is that the police must already
be making a lawful contact with the person for some oner reason. The wording is:

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS

After passage of the law, the governor added additional language repeating that point that
the police can not stop someone purely on suspicion of illegal entry to the country. Rather,
if they stop the person for some other reason, they are now allowed to both ask for ID, as
they might have done before, and ACT on the what they learn when they ask for ID. Many
police departments strongly suggest to officers that they ignore the fact that people are here
illegally. Arizona is doing the opposite - telling their police that when they happen to find
out that someone is unlawfully here, the police should treat that just like any other unlawful
act and book the person.

That's exactly what the Az law envisions, except without the "sit across the street from Home Depot" part.
It tells the cops to "follow the trial of crumbs. Previously, the cop might issue a speeding ticket
to the driver and ignore the 13 people in the back who are almost surely illegal. Now, when the
cop is done with the speeding ticket, he's to ask the thirteen guys in the back for ID.

Why redefine basic legal terms just for this little law? Terms like "reasonable suspicion" have already been defined
for centuries. The appelate courts and the supreme court have ruled on thousands of e xamples by now.

Point to a law that defines "lawful contact", you ask. Chapter 7 defines it as "lawful stop, detention or arrest".

Well, by law men between 18 and 25 MUST have on them the Selective Services Card. This also included illegal aliens who also are required to register if they are in the USA. Any law official can card check males between 18 and 25 AND if they don't have the card on them they can be detained or jailed till they fill it out.

This is a law that is on the books but never enforced.